LiOn battery charging rate
11-21-2014, 04:56 PM
#1
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LiOn battery charging rate
Can anyone who knows or has a li battery tell me the charging rate in volts, amps & how many hours?
I figure 12 volts but also figure low (under 1) amps. Anyone have this info? Thanks in advance.
(please dont respond with "just put it on the bike and ride all day since thats impossible/inconvenient)
I figure 12 volts but also figure low (under 1) amps. Anyone have this info? Thanks in advance.
(please dont respond with "just put it on the bike and ride all day since thats impossible/inconvenient)
11-22-2014, 04:08 AM
#2
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Charging Lithium-Ion Batteries
Basically,you need to use a charger specifically designed for your Li-Ion pack
You'll be gambling with any other method.
Basically,you need to use a charger specifically designed for your Li-Ion pack
You'll be gambling with any other method.
11-22-2014, 04:50 AM
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Li-ion ? Or LiFePO4 ?
Not the same and not the same charging program
Though some of the Chargers do both.
Does your battery have individual cell balancing leads as well? Or are just charging the built pack?
Not the same and not the same charging program
Though some of the Chargers do both.
Does your battery have individual cell balancing leads as well? Or are just charging the built pack?
Last edited by E.Marquez; 11-22-2014 at 04:52 AM.
11-24-2014, 03:58 AM
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Best answer is to charge it at 1-5A with the least intelligent charger possible, ie nor desulfation mode or other weird nonsense, just straight 12V 1-5A (normally it can soak up to 5A but then you need to watch it like a hawk), and then look at the rating of the battery pack... A 4,7Ah pack, I'd recommend charging to about three quarters, ie for no more than Amprere x hours... That's enough to start a bike or car, and the rest is much better to charge in the bike or car, as it then self-balances to some extent... 1A = 4.7H to full, about 2 hours to base charge... 2A = 2.3H to full, 1,5-2 hours to base charge... And so on...
Last edited by Tweety; 11-24-2014 at 04:05 AM.
11-24-2014, 08:15 AM
#6
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Thanks Tweety that is the info I was looking for. I read online for over an hour and needless to say the stories conflict. I did not realize it could take a 5 amp charge but my current chargers are 1, 1.5 & 2 with no desulf and quite unintelligent. Thanks again.
11-24-2014, 04:14 PM
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I'd guess though the bike will charge the battery well above the 5 amps Tweety recommended... 5 amps at 12V is only 60 watts.
Tweety what have you measured regulator is capable of? commonly? putting in to battery in terms of amps(watts)?
11-26-2014, 04:09 AM
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I have not put an amp meter on the SuperHawk yet, but will be in the next few days..
I'd guess though the bike will charge the battery well above the 5 amps Tweety recommended... 5 amps at 12V is only 60 watts.
Tweety what have you measured regulator is capable of? commonly? putting in to battery in terms of amps(watts)?
I'd guess though the bike will charge the battery well above the 5 amps Tweety recommended... 5 amps at 12V is only 60 watts.
Tweety what have you measured regulator is capable of? commonly? putting in to battery in terms of amps(watts)?
But, the recommended charge for the smaller cells are 5A for longevity, and this is especially important if you have for whatever reason drained them below normal usage, IE they need charging off the bike... Then whacking them with a quick charge isn't the best option, as it makes the cells go even more unbalanced if they are off in the first place... Best practice is about half charge, then discharge a little, and then top them off, which is exactly what happens if you start a bike and then run the bike as normal... This causes them to self balance slightly, and you can achieve the same by cycling them with charge/discharge if you need too, and also have the equipment to measure it...
The Shindengen FH012AA which is a popular R/R upgrade (partly because of me?) can as its maximum spec handle 35A current (failure point), recommended 20A max / 10A typically charging current, according to the spec sheet, so it's perfectly safe on paper, and I have never bothered to measure one out... (The name actually implies 120W, ie 12Vx10A, so the bigger FH020AA should by logical reasoning be ~16A typically, but I haven't seen a spec sheet for those...)
Last edited by Tweety; 11-26-2014 at 04:15 AM.
11-26-2014, 06:01 AM
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This is the pack that is under discussion from this thread https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...starter-32548/
and here https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...arrived-32681/
I believe that this is the cell that is being used in the pack APR18650M1A Cell
and here https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...arrived-32681/
I believe that this is the cell that is being used in the pack APR18650M1A Cell
11-26-2014, 06:15 AM
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Tweety, thanks
That makes more sense with what I have on a Data sheet that came with some A123 26650 cells
Standard Charging: 2.5A, 1.0C rate
Maximum Charging: 10.0A, 4.0C rate
And the data sheet I have for Shindengen FH012AA
That makes more sense with what I have on a Data sheet that came with some A123 26650 cells
Standard Charging: 2.5A, 1.0C rate
Maximum Charging: 10.0A, 4.0C rate
And the data sheet I have for Shindengen FH012AA
11-26-2014, 06:23 AM
#11
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About the 26650 cells, replace "maximum" with "fast" and it's not that far off... I wouldn't charge them at 12A with a charger, as it's pushing it, but if the bike peaks at that, or a bit more momentarily, it shouldn't be an issue at all... Those numbers are continuous ratings...
11-26-2014, 06:42 AM
#12
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Being that i work in an Electric R/C shop I have very expensive special chargers for LiFe, LiPo, and LiIo batteries as well as an intimate knowledge of what all the numbers mean. If you have any more questions pop me a Msg and I'd be happy to help
The C rating of the battery is the Discharge rating (generally a higher number, its like the CCA rating on a typical lead acid battery) and the Charge rating based on a mathematical formula. What the C ratting means is Battery Capacity (rated in Mah [Miliamp Hours] or Amp Hours [1Ah=1000Mah] times the C rating of the battery gives you the cca and charge rating. So a 10Ah battery with a 1c charge rating is capable of a 10 amp charge same battery with a 45c discharge rating is good for 450cca
Voltage is Key with these batteries, you can do a whole lot of damage and/or start a fire by improperly charging or discharging the battery. Running the battery dead is bad, and putting too much voltage to the battery by way of over charging or using too much voltage to charge is VERY bad. When the chemicals in the battery are exposed to air they spontaneously combust and the only real way to put out the fire is to bury the battery. It will let you know if something is wrong by swelling up a little bit. Its the batteries way of telling you its time for a replacement because its done.
Each cell in the battery needs to be monitored separately either internal by a circuit board in the battery or by way of a special charger to keep all the cells balanced and from overcharge/discharge. If you treat them right they last forever and wont give you any problems.. But with the hawks R/R issues, I wouldn't suggest one unless you've upgraded your system (which I know you have, more a warning for others that are considering it) A voltage gauge on the dash is also highly recommended to monitor it
Sorry for the long winded response
The C rating of the battery is the Discharge rating (generally a higher number, its like the CCA rating on a typical lead acid battery) and the Charge rating based on a mathematical formula. What the C ratting means is Battery Capacity (rated in Mah [Miliamp Hours] or Amp Hours [1Ah=1000Mah] times the C rating of the battery gives you the cca and charge rating. So a 10Ah battery with a 1c charge rating is capable of a 10 amp charge same battery with a 45c discharge rating is good for 450cca
Voltage is Key with these batteries, you can do a whole lot of damage and/or start a fire by improperly charging or discharging the battery. Running the battery dead is bad, and putting too much voltage to the battery by way of over charging or using too much voltage to charge is VERY bad. When the chemicals in the battery are exposed to air they spontaneously combust and the only real way to put out the fire is to bury the battery. It will let you know if something is wrong by swelling up a little bit. Its the batteries way of telling you its time for a replacement because its done.
Each cell in the battery needs to be monitored separately either internal by a circuit board in the battery or by way of a special charger to keep all the cells balanced and from overcharge/discharge. If you treat them right they last forever and wont give you any problems.. But with the hawks R/R issues, I wouldn't suggest one unless you've upgraded your system (which I know you have, more a warning for others that are considering it) A voltage gauge on the dash is also highly recommended to monitor it
Sorry for the long winded response
11-26-2014, 06:47 AM
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That data sheet looks weird too me, a lot of high numbers, matching what I have for the FH020AA... But then again, they are very similar...
About the 26650 cells, replace "maximum" with "fast" and it's not that far off... I wouldn't charge them at 12A with a charger, as it's pushing it, but if the bike peaks at that, or a bit more momentarily, it shouldn't be an issue at all... Those numbers are continuous ratings...
About the 26650 cells, replace "maximum" with "fast" and it's not that far off... I wouldn't charge them at 12A with a charger, as it's pushing it, but if the bike peaks at that, or a bit more momentarily, it shouldn't be an issue at all... Those numbers are continuous ratings...
That data sheet is straight from Shindengen site when they still had it on their product page (they deleted the product details links some time ago) So Im pretty confident the data is correct for the current version of FH0012.
Of course unless your a motorcycle manufacture, Shindengen wont transfer product details and specifications. Wish I had found a data sheet on the FH0020
11-26-2014, 07:04 AM
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Voltage is Key with these batteries, you can do a whole lot of damage and/or start a fire by improperly charging or discharging the battery.
Nanophosphate LiFePO4 cells are not known for the catching fire deal of the other styles.. Short of short circuiting them, there is no fire danger I've heard of, seen, read in regards to them used as we do in auto or motorcycle use. If you have anecdotal evidence otherwise please post the links.. Thanks... I'd love to read up on it, see what happened.
When the chemicals in the battery are exposed to air they spontaneously combust and the only real way to put out the fire is to bury the battery.
LiFePO4 cells if ruptured do have a corrosive concern, but no auto combustibility I've seen in use or read about.. Have you seen the SDS on these cells? Resources Have you every ruptured a LiFePO4 cell and seen auto combustion?
Common Dry chem or CO2 extinguisher is the recommended fire tool...
from the SDS
Small Fires - Dry chemical, CO2, water spray or regular foam.
Each cell in the battery needs to be monitored separately either internal by a circuit board in the battery or by way of a special charger to keep all the cells balanced and from overcharge/discharge. If you treat them right they last forever and wont give you any problems..
Last edited by E.Marquez; 11-26-2014 at 07:24 AM.
11-27-2014, 08:11 AM
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It's been slow going, but we're getting there...
11-27-2014, 08:25 AM
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Ideally yes, and Id love to have a BMS for an 8 cell pack just to play with it.. BUT, in practical use for small aftermarket automotive and motorcycle applications with a properly operating charging system, it has been shown countless times individual cell maintenance and balancing is not needed. I know most RC enthusiasts that believe they are the be all end all of rechargeable battery knowledge will never be convinced of this.. but the dumb motorcycle user of LiFePO4 cells seem to have no such issues. And no rechargeable battery has a "for ever" life span.. They all have degradation as life cycles build.... Yes the less abused the longer the life span...
But, I'm not using it... Simply because it's not needed... Not at all...
Now, the 300 cell packs in my DIY electric car, though, that's another story... They take a BMaS (BMoS = Battery Monitoring System, BMaS = Battery Management System, important to differentiate the two...) And, yes, for anyone wondering, I'm playing with RC toys as well... My original LiFePO4 8 cell pack that I built back in the stone age, testing this theory out for myself is still in my bike today... It's been short circuited to the point of arc-welding my spanner to a rear sub frame bolt, drained and left flat for three months when I was on extended vacation, and generally abused, party by my own negligence, partly in the name of science, to test what it can and cannot tolerate... Basically, if a dumb spanner monkey can find a way to try and kill it, that I haven't tried, lemme know, and I'll send him a box of cookies...
And you know what? It's still within 0.2 V difference in all 8 cells on a full (85% SOC) and delivers about 85% of the capacity the cells had as brand new... A lead lump subjected to half what I have put that pack through would have given up and quit long ago, but this pack just keeps coming back for more abuse...
Now, granted, I have lot more equipment to tinker with than the average spanner monkey, and I know how to revive it from the brink the abyss once I have taken it to that point, re-balance it and cycle it until it's performing well again...
Saying that, it's not hard to get a pack unbalanced, or generally "unhealthy" by abuse, but it's not very hard to fix either, even with very basic tools, and not much knowledge...
11-27-2014, 08:28 AM
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I have 2 volt meters on my dash. One reads right off the battery and one off the third eye light. But really that's not for the benefit of this super secret backup system. Just because I love dash gauges apparently.
11-27-2014, 08:32 AM
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Add in a old diode based shunt style R/R and you have substandard performance at best, charging system failure at worst.
With such a simple MOD, some direct wiring of a MOFSET shunt style R/R using GOOD tined wire proper connections.. and your back in business wither it's for a standard lead acid battery of another style.
11-27-2014, 11:27 PM
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Well... I have a whole website in Swedish... Never bothered to translate it to English before, since the rules for doing this is a lot different in Sweden tham most other places, and it's mostly for helping out other nutters like me trying to navigate the Swedish legal system in getting one registered...
Basically, you take a 2001 VW Polo (really small car) with a blown top gasket and warped heads, that a replacement engine costs more than the car, add a freakishly over-sized electric engine, a bunch of batteries, (I started with used lead lumps from the salvage yard for proof of concept), and that's it... Then you spend half a year battling bureaucrats to convince them that with an electric engine, there is no tail pipe for them to put the noise and CO2 monitors in for the registration inspection, before getting it on the road legally... In the end, my solution was to put a chromed tailpipe end where the tailpipe used to be, not connected to anything... That apparently satisfied the nimrod bureaucrats need for a tailpipe... And no, I'm not making that up, and I'm not joking either... They literally put hteir meter in the pipe, took a few measurements, before they signed the papers, making the car legal...
The result is a very small car, with go-kart like handling, that depending on what gear you put the disconnected gearbox in either smokes a 911 of the line, and leaves it behind until around 70 mph where you top out, smoking the tires all the way, or, runs about 140 miles to a full charge, as long as you keep it below 55 mph, and can live with it being a bit sluggish at low speeds... End result for me, I have never ever had a cheaper car to commute in, it beats the Prius or whatever hands down...
Basically, you take a 2001 VW Polo (really small car) with a blown top gasket and warped heads, that a replacement engine costs more than the car, add a freakishly over-sized electric engine, a bunch of batteries, (I started with used lead lumps from the salvage yard for proof of concept), and that's it... Then you spend half a year battling bureaucrats to convince them that with an electric engine, there is no tail pipe for them to put the noise and CO2 monitors in for the registration inspection, before getting it on the road legally... In the end, my solution was to put a chromed tailpipe end where the tailpipe used to be, not connected to anything... That apparently satisfied the nimrod bureaucrats need for a tailpipe... And no, I'm not making that up, and I'm not joking either... They literally put hteir meter in the pipe, took a few measurements, before they signed the papers, making the car legal...
The result is a very small car, with go-kart like handling, that depending on what gear you put the disconnected gearbox in either smokes a 911 of the line, and leaves it behind until around 70 mph where you top out, smoking the tires all the way, or, runs about 140 miles to a full charge, as long as you keep it below 55 mph, and can live with it being a bit sluggish at low speeds... End result for me, I have never ever had a cheaper car to commute in, it beats the Prius or whatever hands down...
Last edited by Tweety; 11-27-2014 at 11:34 PM.
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