An old idea that Im looking into again.
11-07-2018, 08:42 AM
#1
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An old idea that Im looking into again.
FCR 41mm down draft carb set.
As we learned the last time this came up.. Kehin developed and produced the VTR setup exclusively for a Japanese company and could not provide them to any other dealer/
I have been working with SUDCO to discuss which of the available down draft FCR 41mm carbs might work for this application...
And was gifted the company name in Japan.
"Hello Erik,
We never had direct access to the VTR1000 FCR carburetor, Keihin produced them exclusively for the distributor in Japan called JB Power / Bito's R&D.|"
Located JB Power / Bito's R&D easy enough, and found that they are not currently listing the VTR as a supported bike model....
But have sent them a request for information in English and a Google translated version I hope is not a mess in hopes of eliciting a response from them...
I have also submitted a dealer application and was approved by Sudco, still waiting on Keihin but I have zero hope they will approve me as a dealer...
We shall see
As we learned the last time this came up.. Kehin developed and produced the VTR setup exclusively for a Japanese company and could not provide them to any other dealer/
I have been working with SUDCO to discuss which of the available down draft FCR 41mm carbs might work for this application...
And was gifted the company name in Japan.
"Hello Erik,
We never had direct access to the VTR1000 FCR carburetor, Keihin produced them exclusively for the distributor in Japan called JB Power / Bito's R&D.|"
Located JB Power / Bito's R&D easy enough, and found that they are not currently listing the VTR as a supported bike model....
But have sent them a request for information in English and a Google translated version I hope is not a mess in hopes of eliciting a response from them...
I have also submitted a dealer application and was approved by Sudco, still waiting on Keihin but I have zero hope they will approve me as a dealer...
We shall see
11-07-2018, 03:36 PM
#2
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MotoGP
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They can still be had new (based on recent searches, though that could be on non-updated websites) and pop up (used) from time to time on the jauce.com site, but they are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
I have always dreamed of having a set (with the airbox configuration)... oh well.....
I have always dreamed of having a set (with the airbox configuration)... oh well.....
11-07-2018, 04:22 PM
#3
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According to the corporate office there’s only one dealer worldwide that has authority to sell them knew and that’s the one I listed above what website are you saying where they are for sale?
11-07-2018, 06:06 PM
#4
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JB Power / Bito's R&D was distributed through different dealers from what I saw (on various Japanese sites, including the Webike site, they have since been dropped from the latter). I recall seeing a place in the UK which listed them (Allen's Performance?). Mind you, it's been a while since I allowed myself to dream about these and go through the requisite Google search. Would love to give them a try but it seems quite unlikely for me at this point. Do keep us posted, however.
11-08-2018, 04:00 AM
#5
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So they got back to..Im impressed, but disappointed..There was no "congratulations, I just tripped over a set up those in the break room being used to hold a door open...you can have them if you want?", .
What they did say was
What they did say was
Dear Mr. Marquez,
thank you very much for your inquiry especially for translation the message into Japanese.
It is true that Keihin made an FCR Carburetor for the VTR1000F which we have been selling, yet a few years ago Keihin decided to cancel this particular model.
However due to ongoing demand our company is currently evaluating to continue the production on our own.
We are kind of a big thing when it comes to special models like the VFR400R/RVF400, VFR750R, KZ1300, CBX1000, Benelli Sei and many others.
I will have a talk with the development department as well as Mr. Bito and come back to you with the current status.
thank you very much for your inquiry especially for translation the message into Japanese.
It is true that Keihin made an FCR Carburetor for the VTR1000F which we have been selling, yet a few years ago Keihin decided to cancel this particular model.
However due to ongoing demand our company is currently evaluating to continue the production on our own.
We are kind of a big thing when it comes to special models like the VFR400R/RVF400, VFR750R, KZ1300, CBX1000, Benelli Sei and many others.
I will have a talk with the development department as well as Mr. Bito and come back to you with the current status.
11-08-2018, 04:25 AM
#6
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And another response this morning
Anyone have a few million Yen to drop on carbs???
Now we get to good stuff..........."How much you want Mr Winter"
Dear Mr. Marquez,
I have had a talk with Mr. Bito and we believe we could ship in approximately 2-3 month, if you choose to order.
Furthermore I would like to mention our ultra light Titanium Exhaust systems.
Carburetor and exhaust combined provide an significant increase in flow.
The exhausts made from only 0.7 mm thick titanium our exhausts are lighter than any competitor we know of.
Looking forward to your reply.
Best regards,
Dirk Winter
I have had a talk with Mr. Bito and we believe we could ship in approximately 2-3 month, if you choose to order.
Furthermore I would like to mention our ultra light Titanium Exhaust systems.
Carburetor and exhaust combined provide an significant increase in flow.
The exhausts made from only 0.7 mm thick titanium our exhausts are lighter than any competitor we know of.
Looking forward to your reply.
Best regards,
Dirk Winter
Now we get to good stuff..........."How much you want Mr Winter"
11-09-2018, 05:00 AM
#10
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well you better realllllly want a set...
They will come ready to set into the stock manifolds
Use the stock airbox
Use modified stock cables
And shipping will be free...
For the low, low price of .......Somewhere NORTH of 148,000 yen or $1,300 USD....
I'll let you read the rest for your self
They will come ready to set into the stock manifolds
Use the stock airbox
Use modified stock cables
And shipping will be free...
For the low, low price of .......Somewhere NORTH of 148,000 yen or $1,300 USD....
I'll let you read the rest for your self
Dear Mr. Marquez,
doing this in English is perfectly fine.
I have attached a photo of the version we used to sell.
This was an improved Keihin version which also works in combination with the original air cleaner box different to the Keihin one.
(The one photo has the special cleaner box air funnels attached, which were sold separately and are currently also out of production)
The original carburetor did fit onto the genuine insulator rubbers.
The original throttle wires could be used yet needed to be shortened and equipped with out special wire ends (sold separately).
Most likely the new version will be similar to this one with minor changes like different TPS sensor.
As for the shipping cost:
Here are the approximate shipping cost of one unit to business customers for each of the locations.
US: 15000 + Fuel Surcharge
UK: 20000 + Fuel Surcharge
Australlia: 15000 + Fuel Surcharge
In case of direct orders form private customers we are going to cover the shipping fees.
As for the carburetors cost:
This is a tough one it depends very much on how the final carburetors will look like,
the old one was about YEN 148000 list price which is rather unrealistic for the new one as we have significantly higher production cost.
Could you give me some insight about how many units you and your associates are talking in total, knowing this would be very beneficial for our decision making and planning.
Hopefully this information helpful, looking forward to your reply.
If our other VTR1000F parts are interesting I will provide you with additional information.
Especially wheels, pistons and exhaust are a great step forward.
Best regards,
Dirk Winter
**************************************************
BITO R&D Co.,LTD.
Dirk Winter
149-1 Okuno, Toyooka-city, Hyogo 668-0822 Japan
Phone
+81)0796-27-0429 Fax+81)0796-27-0629
Email:dirk@jb-power.co.jp
**************************************************
From: marquezracing@centurylink.net
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 9:46 PM
To: bito@jb-power.co.jp
Subject: RE: FCR 41mm carburetors FCR 41mmの浸炭装置 FCR 41 mm no shintan sōchi
As your English is clearly better than my Japanese, for which I apologize, I’ll do this in English.
Thank you for the fast response, and please pass on my thanks to Mr. Beto
Having never seen the carburetors as delivered by Keihin, or BITO R&D Co.,LTD. I am not sure how they are to be configured or what is included.
Are these bare carburetors with just the connecting side plates? Complete ready to install kits? Something else…. In other words what is included in the carburetor set you propose to supply?
What do you anticipate the cost will be for this carburetor set shipped to the US? Same question shipped to the UK, and Australia; those are the three locations others have expressed interest in these carburetors.
Respectfully;
Erik
Erik Marquez
Marquez Racing
254-433-8783
Solutions to recurring maintenance
Race/Adventure ride event prep
Post event services
MarquezRacing@centurylink.net
Total Rider
Your path to a TX motorcycle license
Advanced Rider training
Court approved Rider Education
Erik@totalrider.com
512-522-5844 ext.106
doing this in English is perfectly fine.
I have attached a photo of the version we used to sell.
This was an improved Keihin version which also works in combination with the original air cleaner box different to the Keihin one.
(The one photo has the special cleaner box air funnels attached, which were sold separately and are currently also out of production)
The original carburetor did fit onto the genuine insulator rubbers.
The original throttle wires could be used yet needed to be shortened and equipped with out special wire ends (sold separately).
Most likely the new version will be similar to this one with minor changes like different TPS sensor.
As for the shipping cost:
Here are the approximate shipping cost of one unit to business customers for each of the locations.
US: 15000 + Fuel Surcharge
UK: 20000 + Fuel Surcharge
Australlia: 15000 + Fuel Surcharge
In case of direct orders form private customers we are going to cover the shipping fees.
As for the carburetors cost:
This is a tough one it depends very much on how the final carburetors will look like,
the old one was about YEN 148000 list price which is rather unrealistic for the new one as we have significantly higher production cost.
Could you give me some insight about how many units you and your associates are talking in total, knowing this would be very beneficial for our decision making and planning.
Hopefully this information helpful, looking forward to your reply.
If our other VTR1000F parts are interesting I will provide you with additional information.
Especially wheels, pistons and exhaust are a great step forward.
Best regards,
Dirk Winter
**************************************************
BITO R&D Co.,LTD.
Dirk Winter
149-1 Okuno, Toyooka-city, Hyogo 668-0822 Japan
Phone
+81)0796-27-0429 Fax+81)0796-27-0629Email:dirk@jb-power.co.jp
**************************************************
From: marquezracing@centurylink.net
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2018 9:46 PM
To: bito@jb-power.co.jp
Subject: RE: FCR 41mm carburetors FCR 41mmの浸炭装置 FCR 41 mm no shintan sōchi
As your English is clearly better than my Japanese, for which I apologize, I’ll do this in English.
Thank you for the fast response, and please pass on my thanks to Mr. Beto
Having never seen the carburetors as delivered by Keihin, or BITO R&D Co.,LTD. I am not sure how they are to be configured or what is included.
Are these bare carburetors with just the connecting side plates? Complete ready to install kits? Something else…. In other words what is included in the carburetor set you propose to supply?
What do you anticipate the cost will be for this carburetor set shipped to the US? Same question shipped to the UK, and Australia; those are the three locations others have expressed interest in these carburetors.
Respectfully;
Erik
Erik Marquez
Marquez Racing
254-433-8783
Solutions to recurring maintenance
Race/Adventure ride event prep
Post event services
MarquezRacing@centurylink.net
Total Rider
Your path to a TX motorcycle license
Advanced Rider training
Court approved Rider Education
Erik@totalrider.com
512-522-5844 ext.106
11-09-2018, 04:18 PM
#12
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SuperBike
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,116
It's one thing to covet FCR for a race bike which is WFO or off the gas with maybe a bit of trailing throttle, and quite another for street use. That is why starting in the mid to late 70's most street bikes came with CV carbs (+ EPA constraints). Now most FCR incorporate an accelerator pump but on-off transitions still often tend to create a lean condition. Availability of VT applications versus the much more common straight across 4 is the big issue.
Then there is Mikuni. See these "guys" https://www.mikunioz.com/shop/mikuni...v=7516fd43adaa
Then there is Mikuni. See these "guys" https://www.mikunioz.com/shop/mikuni...v=7516fd43adaa
11-11-2018, 06:15 AM
#13
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Location: Bisbee, AZ
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Granted there would be a lot more factors involved to complete the system, but for that kind of money FI seems a better option. Just thinking.
Last edited by xeris; 11-12-2018 at 06:41 AM. Reason: dyslexia
11-11-2018, 07:00 AM
#14
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It's one thing to covet FCR for a race bike which is WFO or off the gas with maybe a bit of trailing throttle, and quite another for street use. That is why starting in the mid to late 70's most street bikes came with CV carbs (+ EPA constraints). Now most FCR incorporate an accelerator pump but on-off transitions still often tend to create a lean condition. Availability of VT applications versus the much more common straight across 4 is the big issue.
Then there is Mikuni. See these "guys" https://www.mikunioz.com/shop/mikuni...v=7516fd43adaa
Then there is Mikuni. See these "guys" https://www.mikunioz.com/shop/mikuni...v=7516fd43adaa
Perhaps its something you just cant understand or appreciate unless you have ridden a street bike with properly tuned FCR carb (or carbs)
Ive been installing and tuning them on the Suzuki DRZ 400 bike since 2003 for both Sm use and dirt.. both of my personal DRZ's one a stroked bigbore 475cc in SM trim and a dirt only 434cc bike run an FCR... I have ridden pikes peak wining v twins bikes with them, and done some track time on in line 4's.using the FCR.
The throttle response is in a different range then the best tuned CV carb.
That said, no at the buy in cost I don't think I'll be doing it...as much as Id love to have the benefits for the Superhawk, the price is just not what I want to spend limited funds on. there is a DRo equipped low hour, powered on all axis, variable speed Bridgeport out there someplace waiting on me to find it. ...that has to come before $1300 carbs..for a bike that runs pretty darn respectable now.
12-23-2018, 11:23 PM
#17
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Squid
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Near Düsseldorf
Posts: 20
No typo, they asked for about 10.000 $. It depends, on the material (plastic or metal), the size (in her case 60 cm), the complexity of the form and the number of pieces. I am pretty sure that you will not get an alloy carburettor printed for less than the price stated by Marquez.
12-23-2018, 11:39 PM
#18
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Squid
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Near Düsseldorf
Posts: 20
Shortened: So a few things... the FCR series carb is a wonderful thing on much more then just a race bike.
That said, no at the buy in cost I don't think I'll be doing it...as much as Id love to have the benefits for the Superhawk, the price is just not what I want to spend limited funds on ($1300 for carbs)
That said, no at the buy in cost I don't think I'll be doing it...as much as Id love to have the benefits for the Superhawk, the price is just not what I want to spend limited funds on ($1300 for carbs)
12-25-2018, 05:19 AM
#19
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SuperSport
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 565
Ya know, based on the VE calculators I think we only need about 150 CFM, or 75 CFM each. I bet a good experiment would be to make a more horizontal intake runner that would allow the use of a carb off of a CR500 or something similar, I'm thinking it would point the carbs sideways rather than inward. Or, as my good friend suggested, keep my OEM carbs and have him taper bore and bench flow them. I bet our oem carbs would compete well if setup correctly though.
12-25-2018, 05:39 AM
#20
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Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 565
To quote from an article written a while back:"A good example was the Mercury engineers who insisted on using 38mm carbs on their 440 twin engines, while all others ran 44s. They didn't show any lack of performance on the top-end, but were always strong on acceleration. Grand Prix motorcycle engineers had a similar philosophy in choosing carbs for their engines. They chose the smallest carbs they could without losing top-end, because this gave them more control of the mixture in midrange on twisty road courses. Likewise it allowed the engine to rev out on long straights without leaning out on top-end and seizing the motor.
In the late 1980s we did a lot of tests on our flow bench with different carb configurations. After much experimenting we found that flow would increase if we taper bored the carb's outlet side. By keeping the venturi at 38mm, but boring the outlet side toward the motor at 5 degrees to a 44mm final outlet, flow increased dramatically. As a matter of fact, this combination flowed almost as much as a straight bore 44mm round slide carb. The reason for this is that turbulence occurs along the carburetor wall, and if the bore is straight this turbulence actually restricts airflow. By machining the wall to taper away from the venturi and increase in diameter, this turbulence was much less restrictive, thus increasing the total flow. This was a major improvement; we could now have our cake and eat it too. We could have a 38mm venturi, with good airspeed for calibration, but the carb would flow like a 44mm on top-end. This meant that there was no "flat spot" due to a large drop in airspeed when you cracked the throttle open quickly, something often experienced on large venturi carbs. On the other hand the taper bore gave you the flow advantage of a bigger carb on top end. This modification made to a TMX flat slide carb makes it an ideal instrument for racing, and the quick throttle response and good top-end power has made it very popular on snocross race engines. "
In the late 1980s we did a lot of tests on our flow bench with different carb configurations. After much experimenting we found that flow would increase if we taper bored the carb's outlet side. By keeping the venturi at 38mm, but boring the outlet side toward the motor at 5 degrees to a 44mm final outlet, flow increased dramatically. As a matter of fact, this combination flowed almost as much as a straight bore 44mm round slide carb. The reason for this is that turbulence occurs along the carburetor wall, and if the bore is straight this turbulence actually restricts airflow. By machining the wall to taper away from the venturi and increase in diameter, this turbulence was much less restrictive, thus increasing the total flow. This was a major improvement; we could now have our cake and eat it too. We could have a 38mm venturi, with good airspeed for calibration, but the carb would flow like a 44mm on top-end. This meant that there was no "flat spot" due to a large drop in airspeed when you cracked the throttle open quickly, something often experienced on large venturi carbs. On the other hand the taper bore gave you the flow advantage of a bigger carb on top end. This modification made to a TMX flat slide carb makes it an ideal instrument for racing, and the quick throttle response and good top-end power has made it very popular on snocross race engines. "
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