Tuning question... Really strange?
09-05-2007, 10:47 AM
#1
jet wrench
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Tuning question... Really strange?
My petcock failed, through weeks of trying to troubleshoot why my rear cyl died and my bike was fogging the neighborhood with raw fuel, I cleaned carbs three times, swapped coils, changed plugs, swapped computer and converter and out of desperation I pulled the rear head. In the end I pulled the vacuum line off the petcock and got fuel out of the line... blam, that was it! Yes, the vacuum line was connected to the drain, I bought this bike used and that's how it was. I now know that's wrong, I replaced the petcock, whew... $175, but this is where it gets weird...
In the process of all this I discovered several things, and after re-assembly... my bike is jacked.
when reinstalling and timing cams on my rear cyl I found my front cams retarded 1 tooth, the rear marks were dead on and it didn't run, I retarded the rear to match the front and it didn't run, I retimed both to the book and it still doesn't run. To clarify, it still idles a majority of the time on the front cyl, Im getting a little oil from my intake valve guides but It doesn't smoke and I dont think enough to foul the plug.
I swapped carbs (installed reversed) and both cyls fired but it belched white smoke and finally cleared out but would only idle at about 2100, anything less and the rear cyl would fall off and sporadically fire and rev the eng. I had read on hear that that indicates incorrect mixture.
Now to the carbs, I have scoured the site about jetting. This bike has stock 45 pilot jets, with the mix screw turned out 3.5 turns, 90 front main, and 85 rear main. both needles were third groove up from bottom with shim installed.
Current situation...
My cam timing is correct by the book, I've swapped the 190 main jet to the rear, and after seeing white plugs at 2.5 turns out I just rode home with 3 turns out and my bike still isn't right, that was after returning to the orig 3.5 turns and whatching it backfire flames from the exhaust consistently when letting off from anything above 3k rpm. I have absolutely no torque in any gear, it idles only if it wants, I have to slip the clutch and rev it up just to take off from stop.
My hawk has K&N, staintune highmounts, and pair disabled. Some sort of jetting done, and I can only assume retarded cam timing was not factory. Prior to this dilemma I reset the throttle position sensor to about 550 ohms from almost 800, its bottomed out. This is a 2000 in california, but I'm unsure of california emmissions origionally. It ran like a frikken' raped ape when I got it. I put 2k backroad miles on it before getting my license, rode to work twice on the freeway before the petcock crapped out, and now I'm on my fourth week down. I am a aircraft mechanic of 17 yrs, I have never sent anything to the shop, always do my own work... that being said, all written hear is how it is. But nonetheless, this bike has kicked my butt. How did it run so whell so abnormally tuned. why doesn't it run now. Ultimately I only changed a petcock.
My next steps...
I will change the pilot jets for #48, and get a 188 main, whether I go up or down, I will keep the larger in the rear carb, and from there I will try to tune these carbs... I did make a tool to adjust my idle mix while running, just haven't used it yet.
To any tuners out there... please respond if you have any suggestions, or even if you may shed some light on the previous tuning I found odd On this bike.
My elevation is about 75', and occasionally hit about 4-5k' cruising the mountain roads.
Help...
In the process of all this I discovered several things, and after re-assembly... my bike is jacked.
when reinstalling and timing cams on my rear cyl I found my front cams retarded 1 tooth, the rear marks were dead on and it didn't run, I retarded the rear to match the front and it didn't run, I retimed both to the book and it still doesn't run. To clarify, it still idles a majority of the time on the front cyl, Im getting a little oil from my intake valve guides but It doesn't smoke and I dont think enough to foul the plug.
I swapped carbs (installed reversed) and both cyls fired but it belched white smoke and finally cleared out but would only idle at about 2100, anything less and the rear cyl would fall off and sporadically fire and rev the eng. I had read on hear that that indicates incorrect mixture.
Now to the carbs, I have scoured the site about jetting. This bike has stock 45 pilot jets, with the mix screw turned out 3.5 turns, 90 front main, and 85 rear main. both needles were third groove up from bottom with shim installed.
Current situation...
My cam timing is correct by the book, I've swapped the 190 main jet to the rear, and after seeing white plugs at 2.5 turns out I just rode home with 3 turns out and my bike still isn't right, that was after returning to the orig 3.5 turns and whatching it backfire flames from the exhaust consistently when letting off from anything above 3k rpm. I have absolutely no torque in any gear, it idles only if it wants, I have to slip the clutch and rev it up just to take off from stop.
My hawk has K&N, staintune highmounts, and pair disabled. Some sort of jetting done, and I can only assume retarded cam timing was not factory. Prior to this dilemma I reset the throttle position sensor to about 550 ohms from almost 800, its bottomed out. This is a 2000 in california, but I'm unsure of california emmissions origionally. It ran like a frikken' raped ape when I got it. I put 2k backroad miles on it before getting my license, rode to work twice on the freeway before the petcock crapped out, and now I'm on my fourth week down. I am a aircraft mechanic of 17 yrs, I have never sent anything to the shop, always do my own work... that being said, all written hear is how it is. But nonetheless, this bike has kicked my butt. How did it run so whell so abnormally tuned. why doesn't it run now. Ultimately I only changed a petcock.
My next steps...
I will change the pilot jets for #48, and get a 188 main, whether I go up or down, I will keep the larger in the rear carb, and from there I will try to tune these carbs... I did make a tool to adjust my idle mix while running, just haven't used it yet.
To any tuners out there... please respond if you have any suggestions, or even if you may shed some light on the previous tuning I found odd On this bike.
My elevation is about 75', and occasionally hit about 4-5k' cruising the mountain roads.
Help...
09-05-2007, 01:17 PM
#2
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Im not much of a tuner and know jack about cams and timing, but I'll bump your thread so other guys can see it, and comment about a few things in your post.
If your bike was originally a Cali model, it should say so on the label on top of the airbox lid.
The spec for mixture screws on the Ca. model is 2.75 turns out.
Are your jets and needles Dynojet? If so, the 185f/190r sounds about right, but with the K&N and Staintunes the Dynojet advice would be for needles clipped fith groove from the top, not the third.
If your bike was originally a Cali model, it should say so on the label on top of the airbox lid.
The spec for mixture screws on the Ca. model is 2.75 turns out.
Are your jets and needles Dynojet? If so, the 185f/190r sounds about right, but with the K&N and Staintunes the Dynojet advice would be for needles clipped fith groove from the top, not the third.
09-05-2007, 01:29 PM
#3
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Sounds very odd...........if you're SURE you timed the cams right...remember the marks in the hole can easily get confused RT FT T F R etc.....and you've checked spark with plugs out using starter motor...then it must be clogged jets/carbs/torn diaphragm sticky slides or some such. I would CAREFULLY check ALL vaccuum hoses for cracks etc and proper routing first. If all is good, go thru carbs again.
Good luck.......in the end, you'll find out it was tire pressure the whole time!
Good luck.......in the end, you'll find out it was tire pressure the whole time!
09-06-2007, 12:44 AM
#4
jet wrench
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RK1, I'm not sure of the jet kit but my needles have 6 slots, I'd almost venture to say that only the two mains were changed...
redman, Tire pressure... that's why as soon is it went down I installed two new tires... eliminated.
I have verified spark. I'm damn sure on the timing of the cams with the exception of the fact that it was retarded on the front, I have only moved it one tooth on each sprocket to get the marks to align. The way I found it, with the FI and FE level with the parting surface on the head, It was past the FT mark on the flywheel enough so that you could barely see any mark while looking down thru the witness hole. Why would it have run sooo goood and been that far out, I'm assuming the rear was also but I wasn't paying that much attention when I pulled it apart. All marks on both cyls are lined up now.
I hate to think about going thru that rear carb again... I've never had this much trouble cleaning a carb, but a dirt bike buddy of mine said the same thing... "Clean it AGAIN"
The only vacuum hoses I have left are the ones for the little air shutoff valves, which I swapped front to back for T/S the second time I cleaned out the carbs, and the test hose for sync on front and the petcock hose on rear. all good.
I took yesterday off, but I'll start beating my head against the wall in the morning.
thanks for response, keep them comming... somebody knows what I've screwed up!
redman, Tire pressure... that's why as soon is it went down I installed two new tires... eliminated.
I have verified spark. I'm damn sure on the timing of the cams with the exception of the fact that it was retarded on the front, I have only moved it one tooth on each sprocket to get the marks to align. The way I found it, with the FI and FE level with the parting surface on the head, It was past the FT mark on the flywheel enough so that you could barely see any mark while looking down thru the witness hole. Why would it have run sooo goood and been that far out, I'm assuming the rear was also but I wasn't paying that much attention when I pulled it apart. All marks on both cyls are lined up now.
I hate to think about going thru that rear carb again... I've never had this much trouble cleaning a carb, but a dirt bike buddy of mine said the same thing... "Clean it AGAIN"
The only vacuum hoses I have left are the ones for the little air shutoff valves, which I swapped front to back for T/S the second time I cleaned out the carbs, and the test hose for sync on front and the petcock hose on rear. all good.
I took yesterday off, but I'll start beating my head against the wall in the morning.
thanks for response, keep them comming... somebody knows what I've screwed up!
09-06-2007, 11:59 AM
#5
jet wrench
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Nevermind... I tried tuning today and I'm now fogging the neighborhood with smoke. I appeared that My intake valve guide seals were leaking and that is now confirmed, I just hope that the excessive fuel from the petcock leaking didn't glaze my cyl/rings. The current symptom is with the bike warmed up to temp, it smokes mildly, and rolling the throttle belches a huge cloud wich eventually settles down but never quite stops. Back to step 6 of about 36. Sure am learning this motor... If I had known that I had to learn it before I got to ride it I never would have bought it... This sucks, I do this all day at work, wasn't interested in more.
Blam
Blam
09-06-2007, 02:02 PM
#6
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Just a thought but if you have the big 3 = fuel ,fire, compression, Id look at the TPS again check the voltage sweep as throttle increases so does timming advancement it sounds like the ECU isn't advancing for some reason I havent look at a electrical wiring diagram for the SH but does it have cam and crank sensors if so what does the wave forms look like at idle and 2000 rpm . I have been stumped by some strange things working in the automotive field also is the exhaust plugged up disconnect it and try that
09-06-2007, 02:55 PM
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makeminered,
I initially adjusted the TPS to "near optimum" from almost 800ohms, and I have verified since with carbs off, I will check the sweep but I've read that it isn't very effective until mid range sets in around 3.5k rpm. my bike clears up nice at that point. I have dropped the rear needle all the way and seemed to help clean things up for now... bottom line, theres not enough carburation in the world to correct internal oil leak into the cyl. please correct me if wrong... I don't want to pull thel same head again if I don't have to and I'm now more concerned that I may have glazed the rings, It smokes more on accell than decel... therefore should primarily be in the valves.
Blam
I initially adjusted the TPS to "near optimum" from almost 800ohms, and I have verified since with carbs off, I will check the sweep but I've read that it isn't very effective until mid range sets in around 3.5k rpm. my bike clears up nice at that point. I have dropped the rear needle all the way and seemed to help clean things up for now... bottom line, theres not enough carburation in the world to correct internal oil leak into the cyl. please correct me if wrong... I don't want to pull thel same head again if I don't have to and I'm now more concerned that I may have glazed the rings, It smokes more on accell than decel... therefore should primarily be in the valves.
Blam
09-06-2007, 03:49 PM
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The smoke you are generating, bluish, white, or black? Did you ensure all your valve seals are seated properly and that none are brittle and cracked? It's the valve SEAL's job to prevent oil intrusion to the cylinder. It's the guide's job to align the valve.
09-06-2007, 06:23 PM
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The jets and needles are obviously not the source of the problem but for future reference it sounds like you've got a Dynojet kit installed.
The Dynojet mains are numbered in increments of 5 ie; 185-190 etc. and the Dynojet needles have six grooves. The OEM needles don't have any grooves.
The Dynojet mains are numbered in increments of 5 ie; 185-190 etc. and the Dynojet needles have six grooves. The OEM needles don't have any grooves.
09-06-2007, 08:44 PM
#10
jet wrench
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Sorry HRider, smoke is most certainly white, and the valve guide SEALS are what I'm referencing as the source, I never had any of that apart. I was suspect of exactly this when I had the head off, and when I had it sitting on the Honda shop parts counter asking them them to "pop the valves out, cause I think it looks oily" I let the owner talk me out of it... of course his suggestion was to put it back together and "let him look at it"... NEVER.
So now that the mystery is over, my biggest concern is that my cyl is glazed also, and "third time, ain't no charm" if I get this back together after working the guides, and have to ring it. My dilemma is... if I have to get into the case to pop a cyl out, How far away am I from splitting cases to correct my second gear problem, it seams to be rapidly getting worse and is falling out of gear just above 5k consistently.
Thanks, RK1 for that info, should be usefull in the future, I do think that when I sort this out I will be bumping up to #48 pilots, and probobly fine where I'm at with mains now that I have the 190 in the rear.
I did order ape CCT's for when I get done screwing around, the timing was just right, I have 24k mi on this bike.
Thanks again for response, addition suggestions are welcome... but it's looking like this thread is done for awhile. I'll be sure to post back when it lives again.
Blam
So now that the mystery is over, my biggest concern is that my cyl is glazed also, and "third time, ain't no charm" if I get this back together after working the guides, and have to ring it. My dilemma is... if I have to get into the case to pop a cyl out, How far away am I from splitting cases to correct my second gear problem, it seams to be rapidly getting worse and is falling out of gear just above 5k consistently.
Thanks, RK1 for that info, should be usefull in the future, I do think that when I sort this out I will be bumping up to #48 pilots, and probobly fine where I'm at with mains now that I have the 190 in the rear.
I did order ape CCT's for when I get done screwing around, the timing was just right, I have 24k mi on this bike.
Thanks again for response, addition suggestions are welcome... but it's looking like this thread is done for awhile. I'll be sure to post back when it lives again.
Blam
09-07-2007, 05:15 AM
#11
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Hmmm, white smoke isn't good at all. Oil burning should be like a blue smoke. Does the white smoke dissipate, almost like steam? Does it smell like oil or antifreeze? I'm thinking head gasket here. If you didn't use a new one when you put her back together this is most likely the problem. Also check for oil in the coolant.
09-07-2007, 07:42 AM
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yeah getting anything in the cylender will make it seam like a jetting issue. also air leaks will make it feel the same. giveaways are the smoke color and smell. if it smells sweet and is white smoke yur burning coolant. this can be very bad. you could also be pumping oil into the coolant which will stick to the inside of the radiator and cause other problems.
also the carbs do suck and may need cleaned several times after short runs if there was lots of gunk in and around lines. it can break up and work new stuff into the little passages.
if u need to see if the slides are working fire the bike up with no gas tank or airbox on it. it will run for a while just from the fuel in the carbs.
also the carbs do suck and may need cleaned several times after short runs if there was lots of gunk in and around lines. it can break up and work new stuff into the little passages.
if u need to see if the slides are working fire the bike up with no gas tank or airbox on it. it will run for a while just from the fuel in the carbs.
09-07-2007, 11:26 AM
#13
jet wrench
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white/blue, this most definately oil, I will definately be able to confirm any contamination of coolant or oil when I pull this head again. Either way... your absolutly correct, this aint good. If I get my parts ordered today I should be up by tues or weds. It would have been apart already but I chose to sleep in this morn.
Shame on you for suggesting that I may have reused the old head gasket... I guess there may be some out there.
Blam
Shame on you for suggesting that I may have reused the old head gasket... I guess there may be some out there.
Blam
09-07-2007, 04:08 PM
#16
jet wrench
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No sweat... Hawkrider, Thanks for help guys. So my new plan is to cheat some new guide seals on rather than pulling that head again, I just ordered intake valve guide seals. I'll pop the tank, valve cover, put on TDC, apply shop air to hold valves shut, release CCT, pull intake cam... springs, replace seals, and re-assemble. I should be done in under two hrs, and only $24 for guide seals.
We do it this way on the planes, too bad my seals won't be here untill tues or wed.
Blam
We do it this way on the planes, too bad my seals won't be here untill tues or wed.
Blam
Last edited by loserbaby; 09-07-2007 at 04:14 PM. Reason: missed step
09-07-2007, 06:13 PM
#18
jet wrench
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Doesn't coolant burning(steaming off) in the cyl typically make the plugs almost look pressure washed, basically really clean. My bike is actually idleing satisfactorily now but with the progress of getting that cyl to fire it is causing this constant smoke, I'm confident it's oil... But let's say I'm wrong, what would I look for to verify coolant from my head gasket.
Just curious because at the moment I'm at a loss for a "quick and dirty" method.
I have a couple days before my valve guide seals come, I would like to not miss this time.
Blam
Just curious because at the moment I'm at a loss for a "quick and dirty" method.
I have a couple days before my valve guide seals come, I would like to not miss this time.
Blam
09-07-2007, 07:05 PM
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ever heard of a block test solution . it is a blue color and is used to test for combustion gases right at the filler neck of the radiator it will turn green if your headgasket is leaking into the coolant passages around the cyl walls
09-07-2007, 11:13 PM
#22
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Sitting idling in my garage it gets up to about a needle past half way, which is consistent with the temps I was experiencing when I was driving 40mi on city streets to go to work, before I started having problems. The electric fan comes on a few minutes at a time and then shuts off which tells me it is maintaining and not overheating. Temps outside are right around 90deg when I'm working on it, so I believe this is normal. I'm stuck working O/T this W/E so I will try to check suggestions over the next couple days before she goes back under the knife.
Thanks all
Blam
Thanks all
Blam
Last edited by loserbaby; 09-12-2007 at 05:51 AM.
09-12-2007, 05:49 AM
#23
jet wrench
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Well, "block check" came up clean, I am a bit sceptical since after the check... I wanted to see the fliud change color... I put it behind my tailpipe and "drew in" exhaust and it still didn't change??? Maybe somebody knows why that is? Thanks for the suggestion Makeminered. For anybody interested, Napa does sell the kit for $47, however, I found it as a rental tool at a local autozone for a $6.99 rental... SWEEEET.
Should get my valve guide seals today, then to square up my jetting. Wish me luck.
Blam
Should get my valve guide seals today, then to square up my jetting. Wish me luck.
Blam
09-15-2007, 09:47 PM
#24
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May I say, this bike isn't very pleasant to tune, but I am making progress. I haven't ridden it yet so this is all quite preliminary. I pulled up the install for the dynojet kit. I'm running the 190r and 185f, it recommended needle raised to 5th slot with shim under clip as stock (with open pipes and K&N). That was pretty rich, plugs black and starting to soot up at about 5k for a minute or two. Dropped the needle to the third slot from top and that snapped, popped, and even snorted at me once... so to the fourth slot I went and plugs were a nice grayish color. But now is again not firing on the rear cyl, after messing around abit, I found that I was lean at 2.5 turns out on stock #45 jets, still at 3, and 3.5 turns will idle, the front also likes 3.5 or so, which is how I found the bike before I started screwing around. I was promised some #48 jets but they have not arrived yet.
So, my gripe now is that I replaced my valve guide seals, went fine thru the top, but I'm still smoking and getting oil on top of my intake valves... makes it rather finicky to set my idle mix... but I'm ballpark and will ride tomorrow after work, hopefully those seals will break in and I'll be able to put all this to rest.
So, my gripe now is that I replaced my valve guide seals, went fine thru the top, but I'm still smoking and getting oil on top of my intake valves... makes it rather finicky to set my idle mix... but I'm ballpark and will ride tomorrow after work, hopefully those seals will break in and I'll be able to put all this to rest.
09-16-2007, 02:24 AM
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Does it have a vapor cannister? if so, was the line that had fuel in it going to it (the vapor cannister)? If so, see if you can clamp the vacuum lines to it and see how it runs.
Ducati's run like crap if the cannister gets fuel in it.
Ducati's run like crap if the cannister gets fuel in it.
09-21-2007, 10:36 PM
#27
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After five weeks.... SUCCESS!
However, I'm a bit embarrassed, I don't think I've ever had my *** kicked this bad.
I started out with a bad petcock, leaking internally, connected to the drain, and killing my rear cyl below 4500rpm. Prior to finding the petcock bad... I swapped coils, bought plugs cleaned carbs, found bigger main jet in front cyl and mix screws at 3.5 turns out, corrected to no avail, and went so far as to pull my rear head.
Prior to all this, my bike ran freekin' great. I had just bought it a month prior... practiced... got my license, rode twice to work and then all this.
I replaced the petcock, proud I solved the prob. My bike would still not run, rear was still dead. Idled erratically, seemed to clear up at higher rpm, but under load bike bogged and was completely flat.
I chased the head gasket, coolant leaks into cyl and crankcase, valve guide seals and pretty much rejetted start to finish, found air leaks,all pretty much due to smoking that was never there before any of this began.
I also found the cam timing out about a full tooth on the front cyl, I'm sure the rear matched but I didn't check close enough prior to pulling the head. I built the cct "tool" that allows you to retract and hold it in place, a mixture adj toll and in the end replaced my ccts with ape tensioners and found that my stockers had lost tension and all BUT failed completely. Bike has 24k mi.
In the end...
I got my plugs looking nice through the midrange and bottom end even though it ran like crap, out of complete desparation... I swapped coils back, and the cold cyl followed to the front???? I tried three different plugs, they all fired consistent and "blue" out of the cyl, but would fire intermittently in cyl, and completely flatline under load. So I picked up a used coil and viola....
I will still fine tune my jetting, have new intake boots coming, still looking for larger pilot jets, but I've got about a hundred mi on it since yesterday and it's running near flawless.
Wish me luck fixing my second gear this winter.....
Blam
However, I'm a bit embarrassed, I don't think I've ever had my *** kicked this bad.
I started out with a bad petcock, leaking internally, connected to the drain, and killing my rear cyl below 4500rpm. Prior to finding the petcock bad... I swapped coils, bought plugs cleaned carbs, found bigger main jet in front cyl and mix screws at 3.5 turns out, corrected to no avail, and went so far as to pull my rear head.
Prior to all this, my bike ran freekin' great. I had just bought it a month prior... practiced... got my license, rode twice to work and then all this.
I replaced the petcock, proud I solved the prob. My bike would still not run, rear was still dead. Idled erratically, seemed to clear up at higher rpm, but under load bike bogged and was completely flat.
I chased the head gasket, coolant leaks into cyl and crankcase, valve guide seals and pretty much rejetted start to finish, found air leaks,all pretty much due to smoking that was never there before any of this began.
I also found the cam timing out about a full tooth on the front cyl, I'm sure the rear matched but I didn't check close enough prior to pulling the head. I built the cct "tool" that allows you to retract and hold it in place, a mixture adj toll and in the end replaced my ccts with ape tensioners and found that my stockers had lost tension and all BUT failed completely. Bike has 24k mi.
In the end...
I got my plugs looking nice through the midrange and bottom end even though it ran like crap, out of complete desparation... I swapped coils back, and the cold cyl followed to the front???? I tried three different plugs, they all fired consistent and "blue" out of the cyl, but would fire intermittently in cyl, and completely flatline under load. So I picked up a used coil and viola....
I will still fine tune my jetting, have new intake boots coming, still looking for larger pilot jets, but I've got about a hundred mi on it since yesterday and it's running near flawless.
Wish me luck fixing my second gear this winter.....
Blam
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