8541Hawk

Well here is another one : https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...lets-go-26128/

I could do the search and so that there have been a few in the last couple of years but I just don't have the time.

So you can believe me or not or you could always do the search yourself.....

klx678

Here's what was written with my highlighting:

Quote from Smokinjoe73: So if I didnt adjust (or install) the manual CCT correctly, what gets broken if the chain skips? Right now it runs on one cylender and blow some blue/white smoke. No mechanical crunching or bad sounds. Do I have to pull the motor to look at it ? What may have happened?


I'm not quite understanding how blowing blue and white smoke without any mechanical noise has anything to do with cam chain adjustment...

Sounds like something else entirely. When I dropped a valve in my old SR there was no smoking, but a fair amount of clatter.

From what I read, nothing has been diagnosed yet. Just discusson.

For a manual tensioner to allow enough play to skip there would be so much noise it would scare the heck out of you!

On the easy to access singles and in-line fours with side cam drives I've done the dynamic adjustment where the engine is running and the adjuster is loosened up until the cam drive ticks audibly then adjusted the ticking out. It is usually less than one sixth turn of an M8-1.25 bolt and one full turn works out to about .050" That ticking is a few thousandths of play on the cam chain. It would take a HUGE amount of play to have the cam chain jump teeth, I'm guessing maybe a half inch or so, but even if it was only a quarter inch the slamming around would still be readily heard with the equvalent of having the adjuster bolt on a manual tensioner being turned out five full turns (.050" x 5 = .250") from where it should be.

I'm thinking that thread is going to end up some other direction. My money is on the head gasket.

8541Hawk

Well this is also going the way of most CCT threads. The whole, the sky is falling and you better change the tensioners because your engine will explode.

Also you have to admit you are a bit biased as you are trying to sell MCCTs.

With that, I'll try to restate what I said in my first post in this thread.

Yes I will agree the stock CCT's will fail at some point... So it's a good idea to replace them with either stock spare parts or APE's (or whatever flavor of MCCT's you prefer.) The service manual states valve clerance's to be checked at every 16k miles, and the bulletin I saw from Honda (no I don't have a copy of it but I would like think by now I would rate a little credit and believability on this board ) states to check the CCT's at those intervals, basicly if the chain isn't properly tensioned, swap CCT's... it also states to replace CCT's at x2 which is at 32k miles... Which is why I Have swapped out 2 sets on mine

This was a service bulletin issued in 98-99 to all certified Honda shops, along with a whole bunch of others (like the carb bowl vent line routing)... I'm not defending Honda... the design could most defenitly be better to begin with... But with proper care this shouldn't be a problem.

So IMHO most of the failures reported are not due to defective CCT's but a lack of maintenance. Though like any manufactured part, you can and will get a defective unit once in a while if you make enough of them.

Also, like I stated, I'm running the auto tensioners right now, yes it is the third set but I'm over 85K miles. Why do I run them, well because I'm lazy. Just put them in and remove the retaining key and your done and good to go for another 30k miles.

Do I have any issues with the manual units, no and yes I might put some in at a later date but either one will do the job if properly maintained.

I also have issues with the whole not pulling the front valve cover when installing a replacement tensioner, but that is a different story.

So run whatever you like but to in all the miles I have put on these bikes and as long as I have been around them IMHO the whole CCT thing has been blown way out of proportion.

klx678

No, I am not biased to sell tensioners. You can check my posts in all the Kawasaki forums where the bikes don't risk catastrophic failure. I tell them if it ain't broke don't fix it. I had one guy email me to buy one for his 09 KLR650 (no history of failures in general for the KLRs). I told him it wasn't worth doing unless he was positive the tensioner was bad. No sale, laying in my lap and I turned it down with my advice.

In other words for them if the cam drive isn't noisy don't put in a manual tensioner. Not all Kaws fail. I'm very up front about that. It doesn't make sense to replace something that does not destroy an engine unless you have to. But they give adequate warning that it has gone bad. The Kaws will progressively rattle louder in the cam drive giving at least a couple hundred to several hundred miles before things may start getting critical.

As for the VTR, a fair number of the owners and those familiar with them are the ones who are telling everyone that the front tensioner risks failure, which is apparently true. I'm thinking there are a number of riders here who WISH it was a case of being blown out of proportion. But they had the parts break, some before the suggested replacement interval so that was no help for them. I certainly would have a tough time not changing tensioners one way or another if I knew it could just crap out virtually instantly and risk breaking engine parts. That's just not a good prospect in my book.

I'm going to speculate and say the VTR is the only Honda that needs the "automatic" cam chain tensioners checked at that short an interval, and it's probably a safe bet. Having sold Hondas from 83-06 I don't remember any Honda requiring the tensioners be pulled and checked or replaced at that interval. I do understand the CBRs will have the tensioners progressively fail, but I can't say that for sure. I know some Suzuki and Yamaha units fail. I've got 30,000 miles on the KLX with the manual tensioner after replacing two "automatic" ones in less than 15,000 miles. The manual one is still working fine and doesn't need checked, that M8 isn't going to break or bend. It just doesn't make mechanical sense to have to do tensioners every 32,000 unless there is an issue with design... which there is.

Kind of makes me wonder the value of the automatic feature. Of course I know it's because of lazy owners. I have heard some SR500s that rattled like crazy - they have a manual adjust tensoner set up and clearly those bikes making the noise have never been adjusted. I happen to have an SR and learned about the adjustment system when I redid a top end.

By the way, that reminded me - the instruction I used for the Kaws was developed from the way the SR tensioner is adjusted. They have a hollow threaded adjuster with a nail-like rod that goes through the center with the head against the slider and the tip at the outside end of the adjuster. When the cam drive rattles a bit the chain is loose and the tip of the rod will be "dancing" in and out at the adjustment end.

The adjuster is turned in slowly until the end of the rod stops moving in and out. The chain play is gone and little if any tension is on the cam chain, the lock cap is put on and tightened to lock the adjustment. It can be done by hand or with a wrench since tightness isn't the goal, stopping the rod movement is. Much like finger tightening the manual tensioners for the VTRs and others are done. Just enough to get the play out. No extra tightening.

killer5280

Yep. It's a bad design. At least on the VTR.

Here's what I did:
1) Install manual tensioners.
2) Adjust chain to proper tension.
3) Forget about it.
That was about 6 years ago.

8541Hawk

Well the bias comment come from you making statements like this:
How can you actually come to that conclusion just by reading some stuff on the internet? The information actually needed to determine if the part failed or the failure was due to lack of maintenance is generally left out.

Case in point. In this thread, what is the mileage on the bike? How many owners did the bike have? Have the CCTs ever been changed or even checked?

Of course the fact that you are here selling a aftermarket replacement part also plays into it a bit.

Well you are only taking one side of the story in to account when you are making these statements. Of course the people with no problems are not going to be posting up about it.

Personally I have put over 80K miles on a SH and have had absolutely no issues with the tensioners.

You state that some bikes have had failure before hitting the 32K replacement mileage, could you tell me at what mileage they did fail and how many failed? What was the service history of these bikes also what were the production numbers for the bike? Without these numbers, it just comes down to speculation.


First talking about this bike or that bike really has no bearing on this discussion so why continually bring them up?

Then you can speculate all you want but let me ask you this, how many miles does the average rider put on there bike in a year?

5K? Well at that rate you would change tensioners every 6 years, not so bad.

10K? Still the interval is 3 years, still not all that bad.

Though it does seem that my original point has been lost somehow.

What my posts have been saying is quite simple, the tensioners are a wear item and do need to be replaced.

Which tensioner you choose to use is up to you. Both work fine. I have over 80K mile experience with them and have had 3 sets of them. With what my bike has been through, I am confident that I would have found a problem if one existed.

So once again, should the tensioners be clanged out, yes if you have reached the service interval or you get a bike that you don't know the complete maintenance history.

Which tensioner should you use? Whichever one makes you happy. This is not from speculation or reading the 'net but from personal experience.

If you put a lot of miles on the bike, you might choose the manual units. Then again, you can also stick with the stock bits as they also work fine.

Also don't think I'm picking on you or anything, this discussion has happened a few times in the past.

8541Hawk

One other way to look at this issue..... has there been 500 reported "failures" on this forum? I don't believe so but we'll use that number to keep the error on the high side.

So there are 8,496 total members, so if there are 500 failures that would mean you are looking at a 5.8% chance of failure, even if you don't perform the proper maintenance. Even if there were 1000 reported failures that would only be an 11.7% chance of failure.

To say the stock units are a bad design is kind of ludicrous. Yes they could be better but they can and do work fine.

killer5280

Do you really think that a 5.8% failure rate of CCTs is acceptable? I'm not saying that those numbers are accurate, but I don't think that 5.8% is acceptable.
That rate would be enough for me to take precautions. Oh wait. I did take precautions by installing manual tensioners which won't fail if installed properly.

8541Hawk

And of that 5.8% how many were caused by not performing the maintenance? I would say 99% or more.

Also if you do a search for CCT failure you get 138 total threads, even though not all of them are reporting a failure.

So using that number, by this forum there is a 1.6% chance that you will have a failure, even without doing the maintenance.

Is that a low enough number for you?

So once again, run whatever you want. If you have concerns, then make sure you have performed the scheduled maintenance and your chances of having a failure are very small.

Tormoz

I believe that manual CCT's are a good way to go. What worries me are the threads where I've seen people write, "And then I heard a 'click'." The idea of tying down the chains to the upper cogs with tie-downs seems like the way to go. Thoughts?

8541Hawk

It is true that they work just fine.

As for the click and all that, IMHO don't get lazy. What I mean is remove both of the valve covers and check the valve clearance while you are in there.

Using zip ties to hold the chain in place can help though I have never used them and have had no issues installing CCTs

killer5280

Yep. If you do it right zip ties aren't necessary.

Kieran

i've had two stockers start to fail. Got my own manual ones in there now

klx678

You know 5.8% in a safety issue is grounds for court cases in accidents. Probably grounds for recall in automotive world. No one would tolerate a car that had to have the cam chain tensioner replaced at that 32,000 interval if they have chains. Belts don't get replaced that often. Just saying seems to me an automatic unit should last far longer than that.

My comment on replacement has to do with both on-line and the guy who came to my door to buy a kit after his front went caphlooie. If I had someone tell me, with some back up, that it was possible a part would break and maybe damage other stuff I'd be looking for a better part. Heck most people use that sort of logic when buying tires. Someone in a shop, at a track, at a restaurant, or on line says the Dunflop Roadslider will stick better than the Bridgerock Samarislice, that the 'rock slides easily. So they all avoid the 'rock and buy the 'flop. (This is getting really screwy and fun now.) They took advice from a source or two that they might think is trustworthy. That's where I get my comment on the VTR. If I think that front part is going to break, it's gone for what will be more reliable and less work and cost in the long run.

I will say I listened to the guys on-line in the forums when I ignored the noise in the KLX and figured the first tensioner was a fluke. A lot of the riders said, "All Kaw engines are noisy." Cost me a top end. I didn't buy it when I got the same response in the Zephyr-Zone on the 550. Once bit twice shy - I got the information needed and made the part that the letter guys didn't (and ignored my request to do so - a longer adjuster bolt with a GPz body), but made five extra. Since then it's mostly all been by request from the groups. No pressure, but I will comment when it comes up.

I guess there's nothing more to go over here. You like using the stock set up, replacing every 32,000, I like putting in the manual unit one time and the infrequent adjustments when the chain is seated in. I may see the one Honda Service Rep we had at the shop where I worked, this weekend at Mid Ohio. I can't wait to ask him about the VTR set up and service recommendations. I think he still is in Honda Service, known him since around 83. This could be fun!

I like doing this sort of discussion, it livens things up and makes me think. Heck I'd forgotten how I learned what proper cam chain tension (none) was, thanks for the refresher bump to make me think of the old SR. Gotta get that frame blasted and painted, the tracker needs to be done!

lazn

Well I only have this to say about the CCTs...

Manual ones are cheaper, last longer, and just as easy to install as OEM ones. Literally every difficult part of a CCT swap you have to do for the OEM ones the same as for the manual ones.

8541Hawk

Sometime it feels like I am not even speaking English here.....
It is funny how you latched on to the 5.8% number when it was actually changed to 1.6% to show what is actually on this forum and that number can actually be made smaller if I wanted to take the time and weed through the search as things like the "Post Whoring Newbie Thread" show up in it. I'm just trying to keep the error on the high side to show how small the number really is.

Also that 1.6% number is with no maintenance. I wonder if you never changed the oil and you stood a 1.6% chance of blowing the engine if you would also say the engine or the oil was defective?

The car analogy is also very poor. Most bikes don't see anywhere near the mileage a car does. For most riders 30K is more than they will ever put on there bike or it will take years to get to that mileage (though you conventionally just skipped right past the 6 years or more the "average" rider would need to get to that mileage) so for most it would be a one time thing to replace them.

Also I never said I have a preference either way. In fact I have stated repeatedly that either type of tensioner will do the job just fine.

This whole thing is because of statements saying the stock units should never be used and you have nothing but hysteria to back up your claims.

Like I stated before the whole thing is blown way out of proportion.

8541Hawk

Very true but some people don't want to deal with or feel comfortable adjusting them. Some have even blown up their engine trying.

So all I have been saying is that if you would rather have the convenience of the auto units, then go right ahead and run them as either unit will do the job just fine.

lazn

True, it is possible to mess up the easy part of the install. And consistently replacing the auto OEM ones will eliminate that issue.

But really we got way off topic here.

Cursio

Thank you very much for that! I think I will change to a pair of new auto CCT's asap. As some people say here; I will not feel comfortable adjusting them myself, too much is at stake here, and lightning never strikes the same place twice, right...?
Weird! I also had this problem with my old engine! Is the wheelies the automatic CCT's attempt to throw you off before they selfdestruct?
This seems like a good tip, will keep it in mind, thank you!
This also is a good tip. I have found out that I don't trust the mechanic at the Honda dealer here. I will try to dig deeper, maybe for someone specializing on v-twins...?

Lazn: You say that the manual CCT's and the automatic CCT's are equally hard to change, but 8541Hawk, you say that you run automatic CCT's because you are lazy, implying that they are easyer to change than the manual ones.

You say:What parts do you have to dissasemble from the motorcycle / the engine to change the automatic CCT's? And is it after this just a matter of removing the screws holding the CCT's in place, pull them out, and exchange with the new ones? What do you mean by "remove the retaining key?"

Don't think about the topic getting off topic, I think it was a good discussion!

lazn

Well with a manual CCT there is only one step different on the install vs the auto CCTS.

That is: on the Auto CCTs you retract the CCT using the retaining key, install it, then remove the retaining key and you are done.

On the manual CCts you retract the CCT by turning the main bolt, install the CCT then tighten the retaining bolt to the proper tension, then you are done.

It is the "to the proper tension" that makes some people nervous. Really it can be anywhere within 4 or 5 turns of the correct tension and you won't damage anything, just make a lot of noise. But if you WAY over tighten it, or don't tighten it enough, bad things can happen.

Edit: on both you have to properly remove the old CCT, this is the very important don't mess it up, easy to get wrong, hard part of the job.

klx678

You win!

But tell all those poor riders who had their tensioners crap out before the maintenance interval that Honda fabricated, "It is all a problem blown out of proportion." Then You Da Man!

Honestly, the 5.8 was just a cool looking number and I just couldn't resist. I'm thinking Toyota throttle recall was based on less than 1% and was considered an overblown non-issue until Toyota finally 'fessed up. But hey, the numbers are fun.

klx678

To add a final two cents to your comment...

Based on the instructions given - "finger tighten then back out 1/8-1/4 turn" - the only way one can overtighten them is to ignore that term and use a wrench to tighten down the adjustment as some have done. If one can't follow that simple an instruction for adjustment based on mechanical principles, I regret to say it, one should not be working on one's own bike.

8541Hawk

Well it looks like you really can't back up your statements so you feel being condescending and also throwing in a Toyota issue (which isn't a maintenance issue) or the Honda "fabricated" a maintenance interval (but then again, they "fabricate" all their maintenance intervals now don't they, I mean they have to come from somewhere) is a way to save some face, well then more power to you.

Though IMHO it does make you look a bit closed minded and unwilling to look at the true facts of the issue.