any consensus re 2 into 1 exhaust setups?
I loves me twins
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So what I see on most single sided set ups is that the left pipe is removed.
Now IMHO that is the side that should be seeing the exhaust pressure at low RPM. Routing the gases to the right side has now shortened the exhaust system. Without re-timing the cams you will loose power (the same way adding high mounts loose 1-2hp by making the exhaust system longer). Then at high RPMs you will have an increase in back pressure, which, by your link, is not good for power.
Now IMHO that is the side that should be seeing the exhaust pressure at low RPM. Routing the gases to the right side has now shortened the exhaust system. Without re-timing the cams you will loose power (the same way adding high mounts loose 1-2hp by making the exhaust system longer). Then at high RPMs you will have an increase in back pressure, which, by your link, is not good for power.
From what I've studied about exhaust design, it's the merge that creates the exhaust pulses timing/tune. Since that's unchanged with the 2-1 setup you shouldn't have to retune cams or anything else. That was true with my setup too.
From my experience the reason why twins use two mufflers from the factory is noise requirements. One muffler just can't get the noise down.
road racer v2 power
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with my 2-1 i found it works best with a long can to help keep some back presure tho mine does breath better throughout the rev range as shown in my dyno run .
the biggest gain i had was in the low end it made it stronger and better for road use .
and it move the dip on the curve higher up the rev range .
yes its louder up the higher revs but quieter down low .
the down side to fitting a 2-1 is the set up , its a lot more sensitive on the mixture screw to get a smooth cruse .
the biggest gain i had was in the low end it made it stronger and better for road use .
and it move the dip on the curve higher up the rev range .
yes its louder up the higher revs but quieter down low .
the down side to fitting a 2-1 is the set up , its a lot more sensitive on the mixture screw to get a smooth cruse .
road racer v2 power
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From: coventry england
yep i made one but not one you can use wile riding it . pull over give it a tweek and test again . its still not spot on but its getting there ,
i need to wait till the roads clear up to test the new can as its longer (3 inch) and 2mm smaller bore so that will play havoc with set up but i hope it will give better low end smoothness , time will tell
i need to wait till the roads clear up to test the new can as its longer (3 inch) and 2mm smaller bore so that will play havoc with set up but i hope it will give better low end smoothness , time will tell
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yep i made one but not one you can use wile riding it . pull over give it a tweek and test again . its still not spot on but its getting there ,
i need to wait till the roads clear up to test the new can as its longer (3 inch) and 2mm smaller bore so that will play havoc with set up but i hope it will give better low end smoothness , time will tell
i need to wait till the roads clear up to test the new can as its longer (3 inch) and 2mm smaller bore so that will play havoc with set up but i hope it will give better low end smoothness , time will tell
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I don't need to know about your ****.ha
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60-80
or turbo but the wrist wheelie could be deadly 
. I'd sure like to see a vid of anyone doing said roll on in 6th, though. Hawk thinks I should pay money for it but I got toys to buy and those little guys come first. Still, if anyone anywhere even in merry old England wants to post that vid I'll be the first to say "Atta Boy". I don't care even if ya cheat 
, just post the vid.
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Also if it is just a noise issue, why do they still have dual exhaust when being used as a track only bike?
Another question would be why are all the full systems for a VTR (Superhawk\Firestorm or SP!\SP2) all dual systems?
Is the answer noise or all the manufactures are too stupid to figure out a lighter system would be better if it really did make the same power?
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with my 2-1 i found it works best with a long can to help keep some back presure tho mine does breath better throughout the rev range as shown in my dyno run .
the biggest gain i had was in the low end it made it stronger and better for road use .
and it move the dip on the curve higher up the rev range .
yes its louder up the higher revs but quieter down low .
the down side to fitting a 2-1 is the set up , its a lot more sensitive on the mixture screw to get a smooth cruse .
the biggest gain i had was in the low end it made it stronger and better for road use .
and it move the dip on the curve higher up the rev range .
yes its louder up the higher revs but quieter down low .
the down side to fitting a 2-1 is the set up , its a lot more sensitive on the mixture screw to get a smooth cruse .
There should be no "dip" in the torque curve..... and I'll just leave it at that.
Also I would suggest keeping an eye on that carbon can. You might have some issues with it on a single sided system.
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Nath, 60-80 in way under 2 sec ( 1.5? ) might be doable in 2d with with 15-44 gearing and a shot of laughing gas or turbo but the wrist wheelie could be deadly . I'd sure like to see a vid of anyone doing said roll on in 6th, though. Hawk thinks I should pay money for it but I got toys to buy and those little guys come first. Still, if anyone anywhere even in merry old England wants to post that vid I'll be the first to say "Atta Boy". I don't care even if ya cheat , just post the vid.
or turbo but the wrist wheelie could be deadly . I'd sure like to see a vid of anyone doing said roll on in 6th, though. Hawk thinks I should pay money for it but I got toys to buy and those little guys come first. Still, if anyone anywhere even in merry old England wants to post that vid I'll be the first to say "Atta Boy". I don't care even if ya cheat , just post the vid.If you can answer these questions, then you can comment on what performance numbers my bike can generate, other wise you're just flapping your gums.... __________________
road racer v2 power
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I guess we can agree to disagree then..... My first comment would be about the "dip on the curve" comment.
There should be no "dip" in the torque curve..... and I'll just leave it at that.
Also I would suggest keeping an eye on that carbon can. You might have some issues with it on a single sided system.
There should be no "dip" in the torque curve..... and I'll just leave it at that.
Also I would suggest keeping an eye on that carbon can. You might have some issues with it on a single sided system.
i know it shouldnt have a dip but thats down to the k&n filter .if i could get the dip to go i would.
it was there with duel cans just lower down the rev range .
i have the same thought with the carbon can too .its a good make of can but i can still see it getting blown apart lol
when i find a matching can im going back to duel cans but im making my own rear section to the headers (the rear splitter )in a 2"bore pipe either side in favour of the rhs exit unlike the standard lhs then i will get it back on the dyno to see if i loose or gain power
the only reason i wanted to try the 2-1 was it was cheap and i wanted something to do lol
Last edited by lloydievtr; Dec 13, 2012 at 04:03 PM.
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Well since you enjoy talking **** as much as another member here, I'll ask you the same thing: Just how much does my bike weigh? What electronics package am I running? How are my carbs set? How about the exhaust, stock or just looks stock? What engine work has been done?
If you can answer these questions, then you can comment on what performance numbers my bike can generate, other wise you're just flapping your gums.... __________________
If you can answer these questions, then you can comment on what performance numbers my bike can generate, other wise you're just flapping your gums.... __________________
I loves me twins
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And I wouldn't try to argue whether the manufacturers are stupid or not.. history has plenty of excellent examples.
I think the best question to ask is if one muffler in fact doesn't provide enough flow on a VTR, why not make the damn thing bigger??
Last edited by NooB; Dec 14, 2012 at 03:00 PM.
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I thought of this when I was contemplating going to a 2-1 setup. You're basically questioning the capacity of one muffler to restrict flow. If you think about it I-4 600's and 1000's use basically the same diameter mufflers and midpipes. Since a motor is just an air pump, and I-4's flow more air than our V2's, then our motors shouldn't be restricted by the same muffler/midpipe size. I think someone posted a dyno run of their 2-1 setup in this thread, which proves my point. One muffler doesn't restrict flow.
From what I've studied about exhaust design, it's the merge that creates the exhaust pulses timing/tune. Since that's unchanged with the 2-1 setup you shouldn't have to retune cams or anything else. That was true with my setup too.
From my experience the reason why twins use two mufflers from the factory is noise requirements. One muffler just can't get the noise down.
From what I've studied about exhaust design, it's the merge that creates the exhaust pulses timing/tune. Since that's unchanged with the 2-1 setup you shouldn't have to retune cams or anything else. That was true with my setup too.
From my experience the reason why twins use two mufflers from the factory is noise requirements. One muffler just can't get the noise down.
rbracing appears to support your findings that the merge is a key factor for the 2 into 1 setup. I would like to try the 12 degree merger if i can find a good pipe bender/welder and certainly Lloydie's 45 degree merge is cleaner than mine. As I mentioned before, the sonic pulse is totally different with this set-up(quicker, rapid, gruff, good sound), some of it likely a product of the sharp angle of my present merge.
In terms of the exhaust flow volume, I had OEMs with partial bafflectomy, and it seems that my present 2 into 1 is close to the same loudness volume. Look into my previous modified OEM cans, and you can't see past the wall with 2 pipe holes, so it's seems reasonable to conclude that the single straight through Devil or similar flows at least as much volume and most likely significantly more.
Something definitely happened based on the differences in performance with the 2 into 1 mod. When i changed to Hawk's carb set up, performance improved, but still lacked top-end power. Started using 93 coctane while I waited for larger slow jets and mains as an experiment and performance improved noticeably. Then changed to present set-up (signature) and now seem to be in the ballpark performance wise. I haven't pulled the plugs yet, but the color of the pipe looks good, dark grey. The choke works as before and is needed to start cold, upon warm-up, idles smooth at 1000rpms, no stall or hesitation, low end is strong or stronger with steady pull and top end pull in 5th and 6th is good enough for me. It would be interesting to try the 12 degree merge if i can get it done.
RB Racing LSR 2-1 Exhaust Technology
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i can only go on what my finding were tbh .
i know it shouldnt have a dip but thats down to the k&n filter .if i could get the dip to go i would.
it was there with duel cans just lower down the rev range .
i have the same thought with the carbon can too .its a good make of can but i can still see it getting blown apart lol
when i find a matching can im going back to duel cans but im making my own rear section to the headers (the rear splitter )in a 2"bore pipe either side in favour of the rhs exit unlike the standard lhs then i will get it back on the dyno to see if i loose or gain power
the only reason i wanted to try the 2-1 was it was cheap and i wanted something to do lol
i know it shouldnt have a dip but thats down to the k&n filter .if i could get the dip to go i would.
it was there with duel cans just lower down the rev range .
i have the same thought with the carbon can too .its a good make of can but i can still see it getting blown apart lol
when i find a matching can im going back to duel cans but im making my own rear section to the headers (the rear splitter )in a 2"bore pipe either side in favour of the rhs exit unlike the standard lhs then i will get it back on the dyno to see if i loose or gain power
the only reason i wanted to try the 2-1 was it was cheap and i wanted something to do lol
If you're that AR about a little dyno dip that admittedly was also present with duel cans, may i respectfully recommend that you banish yourself from the 2 into 1 club forever. Disgraceful!
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not changing to duel for anything other than looks but thats it and when i find he same can as i have now .
i am very happy with the way the 2-1 works and sounds and the weight loss is great .
i like to experiment when i get board .
and i have a growing list of things i want to try
i am very happy with the way the 2-1 works and sounds and the weight loss is great .
i like to experiment when i get board .
and i have a growing list of things i want to try
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I contacted D & D Exhaust to confirm whether or not they had produced a full system with a reverse cone meg for the VTR 1000f. It was in production from about 1999 to 2001. I also asked if they still had the jigs to produce more if there was sufficient interest. Jigs are long gone unfortunately. At least my memory is still semi-functional.
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I'll start my reply with this (which is post #3 of this thread)
So Nath you going to talk you **** to Greg also?
Now for my opinion on how this board has gone to hell.
There is no longer real discussions, just tons of **** talking..... kind of wonder what happened to the mods.... I guess a member constantly trying to start **** just doesn't matter.
Which leads me to say go right ahead and take what I say out of context or before I say opps I meant to say this..... kind of like the 60-80 times.
I really don't give a **** and think it's funny that Markus post the same thing as myself, yet due to personal vendettas I'm the only one who gets to hear it....
I did correct what I said but still have the fine members here busting my ***** for the original statement...... it is so nice to talk with grown adults on this forum.....
Will I walk away from the board, nope got to stay just to **** people off.....though I will no longer share new information I come up with...
Kind of like the carb thread.... I had the carbs from my bike off 4 times this week and had a nice addendum to post with something new I found..... but it's not going to happen now.
Have a nice day, run whatever the hell you want and I'll just sit back and laugh....
I tried it on mine for a while. I used the stock header with the left pipe blocked off and using a Moriwaki Ti pipe. I rejetted the best I could for it and found that compared to a dual setup I gained a tad top end but lost more on the bottom, including torque. This was all seat of the pants and runs next to a buddy on another Superhawk with TBR pipes. Here's a pic or two:
Now for my opinion on how this board has gone to hell.
There is no longer real discussions, just tons of **** talking..... kind of wonder what happened to the mods.... I guess a member constantly trying to start **** just doesn't matter.
Which leads me to say go right ahead and take what I say out of context or before I say opps I meant to say this..... kind of like the 60-80 times.
I really don't give a **** and think it's funny that Markus post the same thing as myself, yet due to personal vendettas I'm the only one who gets to hear it....
I did correct what I said but still have the fine members here busting my ***** for the original statement...... it is so nice to talk with grown adults on this forum.....
Will I walk away from the board, nope got to stay just to **** people off.....though I will no longer share new information I come up with...
Kind of like the carb thread.... I had the carbs from my bike off 4 times this week and had a nice addendum to post with something new I found..... but it's not going to happen now.
Have a nice day, run whatever the hell you want and I'll just sit back and laugh....
Last edited by 8541Hawk; Dec 19, 2012 at 09:41 AM.
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This discord is something that diminishes all of us, you and me as well as the forum in general, so let's agree to just let our personal feelings wane and try to tone down the rhetoric for the sake of others who have to witness this excessive negativity.
I contacted D & D Exhaust to confirm whether or not they had produced a full system with a reverse cone meg for the VTR 1000f. It was in production from about 1999 to 2001. I also asked if they still had the jigs to produce more if there was sufficient interest. Jigs are long gone unfortunately. At least my memory is still semi-functional.
Do you have access to any pics/info of this system?
on mine, I want to soften the merge to 12 degree thereabouts because it is crude in terms of the abrupt angle blasting pulses sideways.
I have some ideas that i have discussed with my welder friend who did the original alteration and says he will give it a go when he gets some time. My plan is to first get the merge suitable and then mess with length together with carbs/airbox to get a decent torque curve.
The way it is now: runs good, sounds good, and the rear weight reduction has added a new dimension to the flickability, similar to my freind's 600f4i.
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Thank you both for agreeing to disagree. If you would like to go back and edit your posts to remove off-topic diatribe, I would appreciate it. If not, well, that's fine too. Just keep it cool(er).
FWIW, Jardine made a 2-1 system for the RC51 that made nearly the same power as my Harris Ti highmounts I had. The Harris system made 2hp less than the Sato, which put out 131. I mustered 129. The Jardine, I think, had 127 or 128. They were all obnoxiously loud.
FWIW, Jardine made a 2-1 system for the RC51 that made nearly the same power as my Harris Ti highmounts I had. The Harris system made 2hp less than the Sato, which put out 131. I mustered 129. The Jardine, I think, had 127 or 128. They were all obnoxiously loud.
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Thank you both for agreeing to disagree. If you would like to go back and edit your posts to remove off-topic diatribe, I would appreciate it. If not, well, that's fine too. Just keep it cool(er).
FWIW, Jardine made a 2-1 system for the RC51 that made nearly the same power as my Harris Ti highmounts I had. The Harris system made 2hp less than the Sato, which put out 131. I mustered 129. The Jardine, I think, had 127 or 128. They were all obnoxiously loud.
FWIW, Jardine made a 2-1 system for the RC51 that made nearly the same power as my Harris Ti highmounts I had. The Harris system made 2hp less than the Sato, which put out 131. I mustered 129. The Jardine, I think, had 127 or 128. They were all obnoxiously loud.
If you have any pics of their primary pipe merges or can point me in that direction, I would appreciate it. I got my own ideas on how to do it, but til i do, I am interested to see how the pros did it.
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Ha! Mine was no "pro" job! It was more an experiment than anything else. I just cut the right side off....aw, hell, you can read all about it here:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ct-move-10148/
More detailed info on the Jardine 2-1 I mentioned above is in the thread as well.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ct-move-10148/
More detailed info on the Jardine 2-1 I mentioned above is in the thread as well.
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Ha! Mine was no "pro" job! It was more an experiment than anything else. I just cut the right side off....aw, hell, you can read all about it here:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ct-move-10148/
More detailed info on the Jardine 2-1 I mentioned above is in the thread as well.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ct-move-10148/
More detailed info on the Jardine 2-1 I mentioned above is in the thread as well.
apersheate it
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While a 2-1 can work OK I still do not believe it is the hot set up for the following reasons.
One item that seems to have been missed in the Harley exhaust page, that keeps getting referred to, is what they have to say about a variable length system.
or to quote " we should point out that F1 rules prohibit the use of variable length exhausts, otherwise they would have this as part of their equation. " sorry for the large font just a quick cut and paste...
If you look at the stock header, that is what Honda has done but with no moving parts but through "tricking" the exhaust flow much in the same way as the bends in the rear pipe "trick" the exhaust into thinking the rear pipe is longer than it is.
At low RPMs the "restriction" that many people think was left there by "mistake" forces the majority of the exhaust pulse out the left pipe. Which is as long as the system can be.
Then as the RPMs rise so does the pressure in the system and more and more of the exhaust makes the turn into the right side of the system until you get equal flow from both pipes Or the system gets shorter and shorter as the RPMs rise.
This can be backed up by the numerous times a new owner has asked why the left pipe gets hot and not the right at idle.
Just as I have spent many hours with the intake of these bikes, I have spent as much time working out the exhaust also.
IMHO unless you buy a full system from one of the big name sources you will not see any real power gains by mucking around with the exhaust.
One item that seems to have been missed in the Harley exhaust page, that keeps getting referred to, is what they have to say about a variable length system.
or to quote " we should point out that F1 rules prohibit the use of variable length exhausts, otherwise they would have this as part of their equation. " sorry for the large font just a quick cut and paste...
If you look at the stock header, that is what Honda has done but with no moving parts but through "tricking" the exhaust flow much in the same way as the bends in the rear pipe "trick" the exhaust into thinking the rear pipe is longer than it is.
At low RPMs the "restriction" that many people think was left there by "mistake" forces the majority of the exhaust pulse out the left pipe. Which is as long as the system can be.
Then as the RPMs rise so does the pressure in the system and more and more of the exhaust makes the turn into the right side of the system until you get equal flow from both pipes Or the system gets shorter and shorter as the RPMs rise.
This can be backed up by the numerous times a new owner has asked why the left pipe gets hot and not the right at idle.
Just as I have spent many hours with the intake of these bikes, I have spent as much time working out the exhaust also.
IMHO unless you buy a full system from one of the big name sources you will not see any real power gains by mucking around with the exhaust.
Last edited by 8541Hawk; Dec 21, 2012 at 09:41 PM.
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I think your right there buddy .
The only advantage a 2-1 offers is weight saving but as you have put it has it down sides .
My later dyno runs with more details show holes in the curve and you can feel them when riding . It's like I have a 2 stroke power band as it revs out of the hole .
I think the only way to make the 2-1 work is to fit a exhaust valve in the mid pipe .
This isn't an option for me as my skills are lacking .
I did a dyno run with an other vtr with simlor mods but with standard headers with race cans and its power curve was much better .
I will be going back to a standard header exhaust later this year as I like a smooth power delivery .
The only advantage a 2-1 offers is weight saving but as you have put it has it down sides .
My later dyno runs with more details show holes in the curve and you can feel them when riding . It's like I have a 2 stroke power band as it revs out of the hole .
I think the only way to make the 2-1 work is to fit a exhaust valve in the mid pipe .
This isn't an option for me as my skills are lacking .
I did a dyno run with an other vtr with simlor mods but with standard headers with race cans and its power curve was much better .
I will be going back to a standard header exhaust later this year as I like a smooth power delivery .
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I think your right there buddy .
The only advantage a 2-1 offers is weight saving but as you have put it has it down sides .
My later dyno runs with more details show holes in the curve and you can feel them when riding . It's like I have a 2 stroke power band as it revs out of the hole .
I think the only way to make the 2-1 work is to fit a exhaust valve in the mid pipe .
This isn't an option for me as my skills are lacking .
I did a dyno run with an other vtr with simlor mods but with standard headers with race cans and its power curve was much better .
I will be going back to a standard header exhaust later this year as I like a smooth power delivery .
The only advantage a 2-1 offers is weight saving but as you have put it has it down sides .
My later dyno runs with more details show holes in the curve and you can feel them when riding . It's like I have a 2 stroke power band as it revs out of the hole .
I think the only way to make the 2-1 work is to fit a exhaust valve in the mid pipe .
This isn't an option for me as my skills are lacking .
I did a dyno run with an other vtr with simlor mods but with standard headers with race cans and its power curve was much better .
I will be going back to a standard header exhaust later this year as I like a smooth power delivery .
..... Though it is something I never thought of 
So anybody want to experiment??
The other way to look at all this is you want to tune for torque with a big twin, not HP which has it's own set of "rules" and "tricks"
In the majority of carbs I've rejetted this has been the common issue. They were set up like you would for an I4 (or tuned for HP) not a V-Twin (torque)
Last edited by 8541Hawk; Dec 21, 2012 at 10:00 PM.
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A lot of the reason the right pipe stays cool is because of the restriction. Mine is removed and they are about equal now.
As stated in the thread linked above, from Bob Hayashida, that restriction was not engineered in. It was a cost cutting measure.
As stated in the thread linked above, from Bob Hayashida, that restriction was not engineered in. It was a cost cutting measure.
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The info I have worked with was supplied by Dan Kyle from when he did back to back dyno runs with a "stock" header and one with the "restriction" removed.
The "stock" header made more power. In fact I think Dan posted this info back on the Sports-Twin board.
So I guess it's all a mystery as I can't just drop by Dan's shop anymore as Sand City is a bit of a drive....
I have also removed the "restriction" and done a few other things to my header and probably lost a little on the bottom end but with everything else I have done I ended up gaining more than enough to make up the difference.
So I'm not saying don't touch the header at all, there are some things that can be done. Just that it works pretty damn good the way it is and unless you are doing some other serious mods you have a better chance of losing power than gaining anything when you start designing your own exhaust system.
Last edited by 8541Hawk; Dec 21, 2012 at 11:15 PM.
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Now the "power valve" idea just might work but is to complex for a simple Marine like me ..... Though it is something I never thought of
So anybody want to experiment??
The other way to look at all this is you want to tune for torque with a big twin, not HP which has it's own set of "rules" and "tricks"
In the majority of carbs I've rejetted this has been the common issue. They were set up like you would for an I4 (or tuned for HP) not a V-Twin (torque)
..... Though it is something I never thought of So anybody want to experiment??
The other way to look at all this is you want to tune for torque with a big twin, not HP which has it's own set of "rules" and "tricks"
In the majority of carbs I've rejetted this has been the common issue. They were set up like you would for an I4 (or tuned for HP) not a V-Twin (torque)
My biggest issue is TIME and as you see, this may end up a time consuming project, which could be understatement
as of now it is not a priority and I would leave it for days my hands itching to do something to the bike and I run out of things to do. I have other mod's I want to do first, like installing the R1 R/R that I already have and some other things.If and when I will do this, I will create a detailed write up.
