James' 2001 Honda VTR1000 Build
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i realize there is a difference in one of the part numbers. It seems like the measurements are correct though, 20mm and 24mm... Correct?I just measured my castle nuts and those measurements are correct 20/24mm.
Can anyone confirm this tool may work?
James
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I had planned to do exactly as Roger Ditchfield told me to do. Brace the steering head, add a vertical 1" square tube between the frame rails above the radiators, and weld plate over all the cast honeycomb section by the rearsets. I went through all the details with him, bought the materials, got a welder in line to do the work, then after a few last questions to Roger, i received this:
Hi James
I have checked on a couple of things in my records at the workshop today.
Basically the type of Torque forces generated by a “V” twin are different to that of an inclined three or four cylinder bike. Like the old Vincent bikes of the 1950s the s/arm is bolted directly to the engine and the frame is a separate entity but designed to control the torque forces as well as support the engine.
The standard un-tuned engine even with “aftermarket” additions like an exhaust and Dynojet kit which use the standard closed airbox cannot possibly produce the forces to warrant stiffening the frame as the standard frame is perfectly designed by Honda for the standard or near standard engine output. The OEM standard engine produces 102bhp @ R/Wheel. My Stage1 engine produced 125bhp, the Stage2 produced 140bhp and the Stage3 produced 152bhp. Stages2 & 3 had reinforced frames as I described to transmit the torque load around the frame. As an experiment I did one Stage 1 (125bhp) engine with a reinforced frame and found it was too stiff and affected the handling. This bike ran an open airbox without heatshield and my frame stiffening fitted OK. I was able to compensate for the stiffness and handling problems in the fork tuning and rear damper. Therefore my frame stiffening is unsuitable for your engine with OEM standard equipment.
I strongly recommend that you abandon all three elements of frame stiffening unless you tune the engine to at least 125bhp @ R/wheel. Even with this you will have to do serious work on the forks and rear damper to stop the bike running wide on sweeping bends. In our circuit tests dropping the forks more than 8mm down the fork legs was still inadequate to sufficiently improve the handling and after 10mm it seriously overloading the front tyre and risk the front wheel tucking under.
As I said previously the plating that you have shown me will be virtually ineffective as it spans too small an area and therefore does not transmit the load throughout the frame – it just adds weight and expense! Further side rail work and the 3rd pillar will still bring on the handling issues.
Regards
Roger
Because of Roger's comments i will not be bracing the frame in any way.
Moving on to the next things on the winter list
James
Hi James
I have checked on a couple of things in my records at the workshop today.
Basically the type of Torque forces generated by a “V” twin are different to that of an inclined three or four cylinder bike. Like the old Vincent bikes of the 1950s the s/arm is bolted directly to the engine and the frame is a separate entity but designed to control the torque forces as well as support the engine.
The standard un-tuned engine even with “aftermarket” additions like an exhaust and Dynojet kit which use the standard closed airbox cannot possibly produce the forces to warrant stiffening the frame as the standard frame is perfectly designed by Honda for the standard or near standard engine output. The OEM standard engine produces 102bhp @ R/Wheel. My Stage1 engine produced 125bhp, the Stage2 produced 140bhp and the Stage3 produced 152bhp. Stages2 & 3 had reinforced frames as I described to transmit the torque load around the frame. As an experiment I did one Stage 1 (125bhp) engine with a reinforced frame and found it was too stiff and affected the handling. This bike ran an open airbox without heatshield and my frame stiffening fitted OK. I was able to compensate for the stiffness and handling problems in the fork tuning and rear damper. Therefore my frame stiffening is unsuitable for your engine with OEM standard equipment.
I strongly recommend that you abandon all three elements of frame stiffening unless you tune the engine to at least 125bhp @ R/wheel. Even with this you will have to do serious work on the forks and rear damper to stop the bike running wide on sweeping bends. In our circuit tests dropping the forks more than 8mm down the fork legs was still inadequate to sufficiently improve the handling and after 10mm it seriously overloading the front tyre and risk the front wheel tucking under.
As I said previously the plating that you have shown me will be virtually ineffective as it spans too small an area and therefore does not transmit the load throughout the frame – it just adds weight and expense! Further side rail work and the 3rd pillar will still bring on the handling issues.
Regards
Roger
Because of Roger's comments i will not be bracing the frame in any way.
Moving on to the next things on the winter list
James
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,544
From: New South Wales Australia
Well James,
That is good to know.
I just came back from a blast over my fav mountain road and I can honestly say that I am hard pressed to fault the handling of my bike.
I really want a USD front end but am scared to do it as it may upset the handling and put me back to where I was when I first got this machine.
In a word I was perplexed with the handling and now after much fettling I am happy with the way it handles and goes.
As a side note when you look at the first press releases when Honda released the VTR 1000F they talked about tyres and frame flex.
To that end I run Dunlop D209 Sportmax Qualifiers(They come from France)and the bike has never felt better.
I am on my second set.
I have other bikes in the Man Cave that are much later models than the Honda and run the later generation tyres on them.
I tried various tyres on the Honda that were later technology and it never felt right.
I have come to the conclusion that stiff sidewalks don't work with our bikes and have 2 more sets of the d209 tyres because of that.
Maybe trying some older spec tyres will get the results you are looking for without the frame bracing.
It works for me, I know it's a bit out of the box but hey it's worth a try.
Keep us posted and I am still mulling over the Thermo thing!
That is good to know.
I just came back from a blast over my fav mountain road and I can honestly say that I am hard pressed to fault the handling of my bike.
I really want a USD front end but am scared to do it as it may upset the handling and put me back to where I was when I first got this machine.
In a word I was perplexed with the handling and now after much fettling I am happy with the way it handles and goes.
As a side note when you look at the first press releases when Honda released the VTR 1000F they talked about tyres and frame flex.
To that end I run Dunlop D209 Sportmax Qualifiers(They come from France)and the bike has never felt better.
I am on my second set.
I have other bikes in the Man Cave that are much later models than the Honda and run the later generation tyres on them.
I tried various tyres on the Honda that were later technology and it never felt right.
I have come to the conclusion that stiff sidewalks don't work with our bikes and have 2 more sets of the d209 tyres because of that.
Maybe trying some older spec tyres will get the results you are looking for without the frame bracing.
It works for me, I know it's a bit out of the box but hey it's worth a try.
Keep us posted and I am still mulling over the Thermo thing!
Last edited by kenmoore; Dec 13, 2014 at 11:38 PM.
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From: NYC
Kenmoore, did I mis-read or did you praise & then condemn the dunop d209 tires for this (vtr) bike?
Also dunlops have still sidewalls (up until a few months ago). Pirelli and Michelin are the soft carcass tires.
What did you mean?
Also dunlops have still sidewalls (up until a few months ago). Pirelli and Michelin are the soft carcass tires.
What did you mean?
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Jamie says the michelins have stiff sidewalls, and the dunlops have soft sidewalls... I'm so confused!!
Ya wonder whether the swingarm bracing and stiffer front ends will allow the use of a stiffer sidewall with fewer ill-effects...
Don't take over my build thread!!! We should start another tire thread
James
Ya wonder whether the swingarm bracing and stiffer front ends will allow the use of a stiffer sidewall with fewer ill-effects...
Don't take over my build thread!!! We should start another tire thread
James
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,066
From: NYC
Thats interesting. That means that all the racers at all the tracks I race at are all wrong and the forum guys are right. Sounds really unlikely. Especially since I am friends with the dunlop racing distributor/tech.
I even have had long conversations with the Pirelli techs who were fevereshly working on my garagemates bike since he switched and the bike was all over the place with the squirmy soft pirelli sidewalls.
Michelins too will make you feel like you have a flat after either Bridgestone or Dunlop.
Only in the last six months have Dunlop come out with a softer sidewall tire that takes like 9lbs less pressure.
I even have had long conversations with the Pirelli techs who were fevereshly working on my garagemates bike since he switched and the bike was all over the place with the squirmy soft pirelli sidewalls.
Michelins too will make you feel like you have a flat after either Bridgestone or Dunlop.
Only in the last six months have Dunlop come out with a softer sidewall tire that takes like 9lbs less pressure.
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Hello all... All my bits and pieces are back from powdercoat. I'll be working on the reassembly process over the next couple weeks. Polished stainless steel fasteners from John Sieg at Motorsport Fasteners should be arriving any day.
Here are some teaser pics.
Here are some teaser pics.
