trinc

they are listed as different part numbers on ron ayers.


do they actually have a different tapper ? if so, is there a way to tell ?
would seem stupid since they have different mains but why the different part number ???


tim

8541Hawk

They are slightly different lenghts (the rear is a touch shorter), thats why the HRC jet kit has you run 1 more shim on the rear needle to raise it a little more than the front.

Spaz'

Are you kidding me? I JUST went back to all stock settings after the DynoJet kit running at 190/185-5th clip made the bike run like hell. This is the way I purchased the bike over a year ago (With the DynoJet installed.)
So anyway - yea, I JUST got done putting those things back in the other week. The previous owner didn't give me the stock hardware that he should have saved. When I ordered my needles, both came with one shim, and both were listed with the same part number. ...Argh...!
So I guess I'll pull them out again sometime, and pull out my calipers; one is supposed to be longer than the other - right. Are there supposed to be two shims installed on the rear needle?
-Thanks guys.

trinc

i'm in the same boat. went back to stock ( with added shim ) and don't think it's as snappy off idle as it should be... probably got them backwards.


tim

8541Hawk

Nope one shim stock. but if they came with the same part # then you might want to try shimming up the rear around .01 or so.

8541Hawk

What also might be happening is that you might be a touch lean on the bottom end if you went back to stock jets. The larger kit jets tend to mask the problem and then go rich at higher rpms. So you might want to go to a #48 pilot jet if you are running the stock jetting. that is if you are running a stock air filter.......

trinc

with my factory pro kit & k&n filter the off idle was great - very easy to power it up. ( it had the stock mains & 45 pilots ) maybe it turn the a/f out a turn ?

tim

8541Hawk

That would be a good start.

Spaz'

Alright. Thanks for the input guys.
I'll pull 'em one of these days and evaulate the lengths, and have some shim on hand.
I think I'll install these #48 pilot jets I have at the same time and see how those go. My low end/take off at idle is crummy still. But then again, I haven't gotten around to getting this multi'meter tach' to run, with the electronic ignition on the bike - to get the pilot screws balanced. :\

comedo

I just checked the stock needles for my 2001 Canadian model. The needles are identical. There were some changes relating to the carburettors of the 2001's according to the promotional literature at the time but it wasn't made clear what the changes were.

Spaz'

Hey, thanks for the note Comedo. I believe I remember the '01 having carb' adjustments made by Honda for this particular year forward as well. That was the main purchase point that sold me on my '01.
I haven't gotten into the carb's yet to look at anything to confirm for my US model when it comes to the needles; but if I get the guts to fight with those diaphram springs, I'll be sure to take some measurements. Maybe we should get ahold of the Ayers' site to inquire about this?
Still thinking about giving the #48 pilot jets a go too so I'll be in the area one way or another probably.
Small note on the side that has been reviewed before here: Be MORE THAN careful with those plastic choke screws! I'd seen people talk about them even before one of mine broke during my stock needle install, and absolutely !#@#$%^$#@% when the rear one broke off. A surgical finger nail glue job is holding it together well for the time being.

comedo

I checked the needles again after a check of the Ron Ayers site showed the needles under different part numbers for the front and rear. I can't see any difference in length and I can't measure the taper. The Factory Pro kit, IIRC, doesn't specify which needle in the kit should be used for the front or rear cylinder. I might check with my dealer.
About

comedo

Sorry, didn't quite finish.
The

comedo

I shouldn't talk about carbs if I can't manage a keyboard.
The Haynes manual suggests putting a pencil in the carb top and using it to guide the long spring into it. Works for me. I replaced the phillips head screws on the carb top with Allen heads so they're easier to put in especially when the spring seems to have a mind of its own.
The 48's are worth a try. Before the switch from stock I had a slight dead spot off closed throttle that I thought was due to excessive play in the cable. The dead spot disappeared with the 48's.

Spaz'

Comedo,

Great follow up man; thank you. I'm going to change my screws out on the diaphram covers as well while I'm in there. The weather is supposed to be decent up here in the Pacific Northwest over the weekend, so I'll have to consider getting out to the garage, to start tearing into things.
And I think I'll take you up on your recommendation to test drive my #48's. ...Now I just have to get the energy/motivation to go out there and take the carb's off. ...I swear, this is the last carb' bike I own...

comedo

Dear Spaz,
Just to wrap this up.
I was at the Honda dealer yesterday and the very kind lady at the parts counter looked up the needles for the 2001 Canadian model. Different part numbers. She checked them to see if they'd been superseded to a single part number. Didn't happen. Sorry about leading you down the garden path. Maybe there's a wizard on the forum who knows what the difference is between the front and rear stock needles and whether the difference can be detected with the unaided human eye.

Hawkrider

Well, this is strange. I am holding both stock needles in my hand. One is marked A1UF, the other A1UE. They are identical: 0.98mm at the tips, 1.83mm at the first taper, 2.70mm at the top. Both are 57.93mm from the tip to the bottom of the head. These are from a '98 US model.

Spaz'

'Copy on that Greg.
With the two stock needles that I have in there now - and with them not being the original stock needless - and my bike being the '01 model, I'm curious as to what kind of taper measurements it has in comparison to yours.

RK1

I checked the needles from my '03 and have the same two different part numbers Greg cited above. The service manual does list the "F' one for the front and the "E" one for the rear. They mic the same for every dimension I can measure on them.

I weighed them on a scale accurate to 1/10 grain, about .0002 oz., and they weigh the same.

Whatever I'd need to measure the taper, I don't have, but looking at them side by side with a magnifier, it looks like one might have a slightly more narrow taper. I can't imagine why else they'd have two different part #s.

Spaz'

...And it's cold in the garage. My #48 pilot screw install got inturpted with a friend coming over and needing some PC help. But the #48's are installed now, and I was running out of energy - wasn't going to fight with those diaphrams, and was about to put the lower case of the airbox on when I thought "I'd better look into this. I'm sure I have two identical parts that Honda sent me - everyone else has the originals, and have the E and F designations to compare with. I bet I have just whatever."
So I took off the rear diaphram and I'd put an F designated needle in the rear the other month. After my break here, I'll head back out there and pull stuff off again to get this done right. And be sure to note what I find in the front.

Spaz'

Right, just got back in a little while ago. Honda definately sent me two differerent needles, despite the part number stickers on the packaging being the same. I happened to have mine originally installed backwards, and now have the F in the front and the E in the rear. Didn't notice this before, but also noted the diaphrams are labled "1" and "2". Made sure to put the 2 into the rear. -Small notes.
I'll take her in the air tomorrow, and see how these #48 pilot jets go with the screw setting at 2.5 turns out.
I didn't measure the length on these things; I think the cold was getting to me out in the garage. But played around with the taper in the calipers some and just couldn't tell any difference. Big thanks to those who helped out on this...