minispeed

I just got my VTR on Saturday, took her for her first wash today and while idling I heard a rattle noise that sounds like it's coming from the rear cylinder. CCTs were not done by the previous owner but he did give me two of them since he had the parts in preparation for it being done. I've done at least 100km on the bike since buying it without a problem. It currently has about 33000km on it, 1998.

Wondering if it is a worse case with bent valves is there anyway to tell from the noise? It was still running when I shut it off. I took a few video clips of trying to start her up and she doesn't want to run now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXJTcn_G-nk

Since I just up loaded it before posting it may take a while till you can view it.

Wolverine

That does not sound good . Sounds like it may be an expensive repair. Best of luck.

lazn

I'd bump that to probable.. 100km too many for that CCT. And now rather than a cheap preventative job, my guess is that you have an expensive rebuild to do.

Riff

Eewww! ...may want to contact this seller
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=19222

minispeed

A little luck in my unlucky week, thanks!

JamieDaugherty

Come on guys, don't be so 'gloom and doom'. If he had bent valves the engine would be running like crap. It's probably ok.

lazn

Well it isn't running at all post noise.. so

oahu hawk

maybe a little residual water in the electrics after the wash?

Circuit_Burner

Hard to tell if you say its not running.
At this point I would rely on a compression test.
Some other foofoo thing could be the reason for it not running.
If you bend a valve, it will either seize up or miss badly.

Mark S

Hopefully at this point you haven't tried to start it again. It needs to be properly diagnosed to prevent more damage. The cam cover needs to come off and an inspection of the valve train needs to be done. Doing a compression test or any turning over of the motor with the starter should not be done. The noise is from excessive slack in the chain and the slack will allow the cams to go out of time with bent valves being a possible result.
The bent valves are not necessarly a result of losing the CCT spring.
I started my SH for a ride home from work a while back and the same noise that yours is making happened. Shut the bike off as soon as I heard it. Started it once more to be sure, shouldn't have done it but got lucky and nothing happened. I have been around engines most of my life and knew what had happened. Got the bike home and took the front cam cover off, that was my noisy cyl. Found the chain loose, removed the cams, at this point the valves are closed and a leak down can be performed with out fear of the engine moving and bending valves. As luck would have it the leak down was less than 5%, motor was in good shape. Bought two new factory cct's did a little mod to them and installed them. The reason I didn't go for the screw and lock nut cct is I wanted the factory tension on the chain.
Anyway the engine may not be damaged at this point, do not guess about anything you do to the engine, if you don't know, find out, understand what is happening internally when it is running and you will be better able to diag and fix it.
Hopefully this helps and if you already know all this sorry for taking your time.
Mark Smith

dannyz

Hi minispeed, we must be neighbors! I too am pretty new to my VTR, and am loving it so far. Unfortunately, have no advice for your situation, can just wish you luck with repair, and to get it back on the road quickly.

minispeed

Update:

Got a lot torn down today. It's the front cylinder making the noise even though it sounded like the rear.

No I didn't turn the motor over any more than enough to capture the sound clip.

After the cam covers were off, first the rear and I noticed the chain was very tight so it probably wasn't the rear cylinder. After I took the front off it was immediately obvious that it was too loose.

I then took off the crankshaft cover to turn the crank by hand and find out where in the stoke I was. While trying to get the front cylinder to TDC the intake cam on the front cylinder stopped moving (probable contact between valve and piston). The clicking noise was the chain jumping on the cam gears.

I still haven't pulled the head off yet to check the valves. I went a head and bought used cylinder heads anyways since they were priced well.

I've seen pictures of the VTR pistons and there are cut outs that look like they correspond to the valves.

Does anyone know if this causes contact between valve and piston to be at 90degrees or close to it? Does anyone know exactly how much the piston/valves can contact? My logic being that if it was only very short duration low rpm contact the valve may not be bent. Also since the chain was skipping on the cam gear so easily that means little resistance when the piston pushes against the valve.

It's also ironic that I won't buy an interference engined car with a timing belt for this very reason and it happens to me with a chain LOL.

JamieDaugherty

There is lots of interference between the valves and the pistons. If your cam timing is off more than a tooth or so then the valves are certainly bent.

lazn

That's normal, the front is the one that usually goes.

This is why I went to APEs if I get lazy and don't ever adjust them, this still won't happen to me, I just might have a noisy engine. Stock CCTs = timing belt.

Good call on picking up the spare heads, hopefully you still have an easy fix, and I do recommend spending the $90 on APEs. http://www.overstockpartsgalore.com/ (I got mine locally for about that price)

Riff

I can't answer your questions but I do have another question for you. What distinguishes the front from the rear head? I would have thought they were identical, just rotated 180 on the case? Ron Ayers does show different part numbers. Are they ported differently or ??? I'm baffled why Honda would not have machined these identically.

Circuit_Burner

You may not have any piston damage worth worrying about, and at worst you bent a valve. And theres the very remote chance you already had a bent valve, but after the impact its now straight, and awaiting timing, ... but I wouldnt count on that.

minispeed

How often do manual ones require adjusting?

I've already got a spare set of CCTs that came with the bike, the orange dot ones. I've heard these are much better than what the 98 would have come with (if they ones still on there are original).

What kind of millage are people getting out of the orange dot CCTs? I was thinking of just using them for about 20000km then putting some manual ones on.

lazn

Most people check the tension on the manual ones when they do a valve job, I haven't heard of one actually ever needing adjustment.

lazn

The location of the exhaust in relation to the head. if you rotated the rear head around the cam chain and cct would be on the wrong side..

minispeed

Got the rear head off today and took some pics. Both intake valves are bent. Exhaust appears to be fine. The piston shows marks in the carbon where there was probably contact but doesn't appear to have any damage.

HRCA#1

Pardon me if I'm wrong but the buildup on the pistons doesn't look right to me. It looks like your burning oil, was the bike smoking at all or is it wet and ugly from the bent valves leaking fuel into the cylinder. It looks more like stem seals or worn rings to me. Ther are some sharp tech guys on the Forum that might like to chime in.

Circuit_Burner

Pistons look good at the impact points.
Cheap gas and other BS additives like octane boosters does that, thats not oil.
Oil leaves a sheen you can see.
If it was burning oil, it would extend to the edges of the piston crown.
Get 2 new valves (or all 4 if youre smart)
Decarbonize the piston crown, and have the valves seated by a good shop.
(or yourself if you do that)
You be back in buisness pretty fast.

swordfish

don't even mess around with those orange dot cct's. get some trucker MCCT or APES.

minispeed

Is it a definet that the valves will need re seating? I can't do that myself but I can install the valves if I buy a spring compressor (and a new tool is never a waste of money). But if there is a likely chance that it will be required to re seat I'd rather save that money right now.

Can you remove the old valves and check if it needs re seating without doing a complete install of the valve/spring? If so how would you test if it needs re seating, do you need a tool or can you check using light through the intake?

I assume the ultimate test would be getting it back on and doing a compression test.

HRCA#1

Short answer NO! Not possible. In my day we used a blue machists dye and some very fine grinding compound. Lap the valve lightly on the seat and you should visually see where the seat is on the valve and be able to measure the seat width, see the manual for specs. In fact go to the Knowledge base section of the forum and look for the manual, it's in pdf form and it's free.

Actually on thinking about it with the mileage on your machine just plan on doing all of the seats and if I were you I'd pull the other head too.

minispeed

The bike is running again!

So I took the head into Honda, was charged two hours labour for re seating the valves and checking the spacing.

So far the total cost of a CCT failure (in Canadian dollars, and rounded off)

• new CCT's (which for me came with the bike) $100
• 2 new valves $50
• new OEM Honda coolant $35
• head gasket $55
• seals etc... $15
• labour $230

Total cost is almost $500 and that was with me doing all the hard labour myself. I'm guessing at Honda the full deal would have cost $1500.

TO ANYONE THINKING OF PUSHING THEIR OLD CCTs DON'T DO IT! I didn't get any warning that they were about to fail. It's well worth the $300 someone else will charge you to do it, or the $100 that you can do it yourself for. I'm going to make a lock screw for the new OEM CCTs and keep them till winter time. I just couldn't wait in prime riding weather to have manual CCTs shipped.

opsmgr

You can't make a lockscrew that'll stop the CCT innards unwinding, unless you can get something that seats in the screw slot itself. The screw turns, it doesn't screw in and out.

Cheers,

Paul.

opsmgr

Yes, new valves will need to be reseated. They don't need a lot of lapping, just enough to get an unbroken gray ring around the valve.

You can visually inspect to see if any valves are bent, but the best test is to check the valve clearance before you remove the cams, if they are way out of spec, they are likely to be bent. You can do leak tests using alcohol or somesuch around the rim of the valve, or remove them an roll them around a flat plate, or spin them in a lathe, anything out of true will show up.

Cheers,

Paul.

opsmgr

Don't mess with replacement or secondhand tensioners unless you're sure that the CCT is good and has come from the rear head (where it has had plently of oil). Definitely junk the OEM CCT from the front cylinder and go to a manual. You will sleep easier at night

Cheers,

Paul.