It's my turn. CCT broke, bad consequences!
 

Hi all.

On my way home from the eastern holidays my bike started "ticking", the ticking increased when i raised the rpms. Rode carefully for a couple of minutes, not sure what this sound was (I was in a line), then the bike died. It died the same way it dies if it runs out of gas, not sudden, but slow and surely.

Tried to crank it, then it sounded like I had a loose chain inside my engine, a terrible sound! I don't own a garage or the tools to open it up and check for myself, so I got it to the local Honda workshop, and they gave me the news today. He confirmed the CCT as the failing part. A lot of bent valves and damage inside the engine. He said it looked like I had it running for a while after the CCT actually failed, and this messed up a lot of different parts. :(

I am going there to see for myself, and note the damages, but he advised me to buy a new engine instead of a rebuild. He said the rebuild would cost me about $5000 in parts and work hours... :eek:

Here is the bike in question, as you can see, CCT is not one of my mods...
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...41/

What should I do? What is my options? It is not so easy to get hold of an used engine in Norway, though I will happily pay the shipping!

Everybody, change your CCT's!!

I'm sorry to hear of your misfortune. Wish I had a spare engine to crate up for you and send over. Good luck, hope someone can help you out.

If the bottom is still ok you could look for just a head to swap too.

And yes everyone, manual CCTs are FAR cheaper than a new engine, swap them!

Sorry to hear about your CCTs. Out of curiosity how many miles were on your bike when they went. I know it has nothing to do with mileage but again just curious.

I use to think it was site induced paranoia, but I find it on my mind more and more. Hearing Phantom ticks screw it I'm changeing them at the end of the season.

It is probably only 3% or less per year that this happens to. But given enough years this will eventually happen to everyone who doesn't prevent it..

ouch. that's bad news. 5 grand? buy a new bike before listening to those bandits. i'm in the middle of diagnosing a horrible clanking that came on with no warning. you can be absolutely sure that i have APE ccts being shipped as i write.

Thank you very much, buying a used engine on ebay might be the best way :)

When you say the head, do you mean the top of the engine over each cylinder (the part over the top gasket)? Will a head change on each cylinder be necessary you think? I will certanly look into this!

My bike has done about 50000 miles. It is a 2000-mod, but I have only owned it for the last two years, and I am not sure when the last CCT-change was done. This breakdown is absolutely part my fault, even though the workshop never had seen this problem before!

Yeah, 5 grand. I never said Norway is a cheap country to live in. I am also thinking about selling the bike as a part bike to get rid of the problem, but at the same time I think that it is in too good of a condition to do that!

As long as the piston wasn't damaged by hitting the valves, a replacement cylinder head complete with valves is all you'll need.
Keep an eye on ebay, they pop up occasionally, although front heads are rare as it's usually the front that lets go.

Are you serious? If that's the case, I'll might survive this after all! ;)

It is probably just one of the CCT's that failed, and then it's proably just damages on one of the heads, right? (because of the independent cam chains?)
From what i could tell, the mechanic did just open the top cover on one of the heads and had a look around, so what should I ask him to do?
Is this a good approach?

- Fully open both heads and check for damage on pistons in addition to damage on valves.
- If there's no damage to the pistons, change the head / two heads if needed, and get it running!
- If there's damage to the pistons, and / or small pieces of metal everywhere, buy a new engine?

Sorry to hear about your cct failure:( If it were me I'd find a good used low mileage motor and just swap it out.

Here's an example of one in Germany: Find Honda VTR1000F Firestorm SC36 Motor on eBay Global Buying, with worldwide deals on items in all your top categories

That engine looks like a really good choice, I actually looked at it earlier today.
Would you not take the chance of just changing the head (I assume changing the head on my old engine is cheaper), because of the possibility of more damage deeper down?

Yes, there will be a HIGH probability that you'll have metal from the chain slapping the inside of the head that circulated in the oil. The best way to check is pull the oil pan and inspect the crevices in the bottom of it and check pump's filter foot for metal hiding in it.

If no metal pieces can be found then just replacing the head will work fine, otherwise you may risk another engine failure after replacing the head due to the metal contaminated oil reaching bearings and/or tranny...

I have two good heads one front and one rear complete with good valves if you decide to go that route although shipping would overseas would be pretty steep.

If he only needed 1 head at about 20 lbs that wouldn't be too bad to ship. I'd guess $75-100 with insurance, maybe less?

parting these bikes can bring some significant $ if the rest of your bike is in good shape. I'd suggest looking into doing that to offset the cost of another bike. It would be cheaper to buy a good running Firestorm instead of paying that much for just the engine.

I have given this some thought, and I think it's the safest option to change the engine, though it's not necessarily the cheapest one.

But consider that the new engine is two years newer, and has 36000 less miles on it!

The Norwegian VTR-community is quite small, so I am not sure if this is a good option... I do not have a garage to tear down the bike and to store the parts either. :/

Well, the "new" engine is on it's way (it has about 14000 miles on it). I found out this is the least risky option, because there is not easy to say how big the damages is on my engine. I will put my engine out for sale cheap, it probably is just the front head that needs changing.

I will give a update when I get the new engine, let's see how it goes :)

so i don't start out a new topic...

all this talk got me paranoid about my VTR.

has almost 49.000 km onboard.

I m thinking of changing CCTs to brand new OEM CCTs...

I can't putn APE ccts because I'm not that technical (don't have the tools, the skills, the time ,the place and the will). And also can't find/trust somebody to do it.

My question is: to change the CCTs does something need to be taken off (same procedure as replacing them with APE's ?)

Also,should I think of changing the cam chains as well (& cam sprockets & etc?)

Or I can just change the CCTs ?

Just the CCTs and here's the best DIY writeup that I know of that's easy to follow: https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...pe-ccts-11275/

Swapping CCT's are the same job, regardless of if you use OEM, or APE's... Same level of skill needed, same basic tools, and the same things needs to come off... And yes, the same opportunity to blow up your working engine exist, doesn't matter what replacement parts you choose...

The only difference is that you use a tool to lock the spring in the stock CCT before installing them... If a shop does the work they have the tool, if you do it, you need to make it...

And as far as "not having the know-how", don't assume a shop has the know-how, other people have tried that with less than stellar results... The VTR's have a "quirk" in that oyu can grenade an engine on CCT replacement where other bikes are "safe" to work on... If the mechanic makes that assumption, it goes "crunch"...

Camchain and sprockets should be replaced when they reach their wear limit, the service manual tells you how to check that, and what limits... It's not cheap, and if you are uncomfortable doing CCT's, the risks go up exponentially with added complexity...

BTW, where are you located? Km means Europe?... Could be an idea to put it in your info...

My two cents:

First off the HyVo cam chains should last virtually the life of the bike given the adjustment is proper, whether an OEM unit or a manual unit. The fact is I've only done 4 adjustments over a 30,000 mile range on new cam chains on my KLX650, with the last one being so many miles ago I don't remember when it was. Clearly the chains (it has two) seated in and have pretty much stayed put after the last adjustment. The total adjustment was less than one full turn of an M8-1.25 bolt or about .050". Not too much. The Zephyr has gone 8K without any changes, it had the original chain and I've had a few riders tell me of similar experience with minimal adjustment. That's what led me to the conclusion about the incrementation of the ratchet mechanisms and the stacking of tolerances putting some of the tensioners in position to fail quickly while others don't. But that's another story.

As for the difficulty, on the Kaws it's a breeze to do them. I installed one in an Eliminator in the infield at Mid Ohio last year, but they're wide open and easy to get to. One rider commented "If you know which end of a screwdriver to hold onto, you can do this." But on the Superhawk you need to be more careful with how they are installed, keeping the cylinders at TDC compression on the one in which you are intalling the tensioner. That is the hard part. Adjusting the tensioner is not that difficult, especially if you use a mechanic's stethoscope or screwdriver to the ear to listen for the ticking sound of the chain slack slapping the slider, which taps on the adjuster bolt. I will say I do it by ear only on the KLX, it's quite easily heard.

At this point from what I've read here I'd NEVER put a set of stock tensioners back in the bike. On the Kaws it's a progressive failure that is non-catastrophic for some time. Clearly on the VTRs it can be instantaneous.

By the way, if you can strip the bike down to where you can get to the tensioners all it takes to put in the set I make is the 10mm (or whatever wrench it takes) to pull the stock tensioners, a 5mm allen wrench to put in mine with the countersunk fasteners, and two 13mm wrenches - one to hold the adjuster bolt and one to tighten the lock nut - to install them. No tricks. In my book it's harder to strip the bike down than put in the parts. Stock tensioners sound a lot more difficult since clearly they also need to have the cylinders at TDC, but have some trick to setting them for assembly. Then after some time they break...

is this the tool you're referring to, Tweety?

before:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_z...pper_tooil.jpg

after: (whoops):
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_z...2/P1080979.JPG

That would be the one... But I'd call that poor quality control... ;)

BTW, why anybody would replace with stock CCT's are beyond me though...

i took the top of the rear apart to look for source of nasty clanking. once i get the cam chain back on with both RE and RI and the cams aligned correctly at R TDC i'll ask myself the following questions. 1) "why didn't i just measure the valve lash?" 2) "why did i remove the cams?" and then i spray mace in my eyes as penance for my sins.

here's a nicer one. i'm getting better.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_z...2/P1080993.JPG

Make your own if you're a cheap ass but change it now!
 

It seems like every month there is a CCT issue. I don't know about you but why take the chance? Just spend an afternoon and change them out. If you don't want to spend $100 on the APE Bling.... Spend $10 and make your own. Works the same. Regarding my write up, I realized there are some technical errors in the piece but it's all there. If you take that and also read Lazn's piece you're know just about the same as any Honda tech regarding CCT change. Just do the damn thing and let's not have anymore of these thread come up. We need every VTR on the road!

Make your own here:

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ual-one-22711/

when my rear cyl began clanking and i shut down the motor and had the bike towed to my garage, one of the first things i did was order a couple red APE CCTs. i assumed that my rear CCT had failed. i got the APEs in the mail late last week. i'm currently back-tracking on the sprocket removal so that i can get an accurate reading of valve lash at TDC. in order to do that i need to release the tension on the OEM CCTs.

-f

BTW - That special Honda tool can be replaced with a flat head screw driver....:banana:

it's much more fun to make the special little tool. ? . ?
i wish i could figure out how to make that damn banana stand still!

+1. Making the special little tool is the most fun part of the project. (apart from the fact you get to keep riding because your valves aren't AFU..)

I'd tell you how to make it stop, but then you'd have to replace your monitor or lap top screen... :D

why not put stock cam chain tensioners back in your bike? mine have lasted to 59k so far and just now making noise. i am putting OEM ones bake into mine this week.. is that so bad?

Because they usually fail without warning, and if you do manual ones they are replaced for life, never needing to be replaced again.

cursio hi

5000 is insane to spend on repairing a bike that costs less than that. i had the same problem a month ago. cct failed and i drove it to home for about 4 km with the same sound that you described. i took of front cylinder head and find that 2 exhaust valves are slightly bent. i ordered new ex valves took head to local workshop for seat grinding, reassembled the engine and thats it. shore there can be other damages on camshaft, chain, etc. but in case of replacing everything it cant cost that 5000 thousand. if you buying all new parts on internet it will cost you 1000€ tops.

only serious damage that comes on my mind by failing cct is broken piston or if valve brake a part and fall in to cylinder otherwise i just dont see how it can cost 5000

my repair cost 55€ pair of valves ( made in local valve factory bu order cause i have to wait for month and pay 160€ in honda workshop), 15€ valve seats grinding 30€ manual cct-s (also made in local workshop looks exactly like ape ones) and thats it.
dont let that thieves rip you of
cheers

i dont ride like helll so i cant see the need to put manual ones on it. mine lasted almost 60k miles, they are not to bad right now but like everyone says better safe than sorry.

It has less to do with how you ride than how the tensioners hold up. It isn't a performance thing.

Go ahead and do the OEM tensioners if you want, but just keep in mind that you do NOT know when the front one may break and if it does it may not be cheap to fix.

On the other hand I know how long that M8-1.25 bolt is going to last. The engine will break before that tensioner thru bolt will. I also know how well it is adjusted.

They actually take less attention than valve adjustments do, based on my own experience and that of people who have talked with me about it. The nice part is if the chains get a bit loose you hear a light ticking long before there is even a remote chance for any damage, much less catastrophic failure. I will always take that over a semi-reliable "automatic" cam chain tensioner.

But hey, that's just me I guess. I like to know what's going on in there. Once a part design proves to have possibilities of failure I'll not use it if I have a choice and especially when the choice is so much less than the OEM parts.

I should mention there are a whole lot of Kawasaki riders who've gone to manual tensioners after a lot of miles on an "automatic" one when it quits working. There is a mechanical reason they fail and the chances for failure increase once it has failed the first time. It has to do with tolerance stacking and dynamic wear versus incremental adjustments.

i want simple, mine lasted 60k so to me that is pretty good odds. i wouldnt mind manual ones but i have herd horror stories about miss adjusting them. either way i hope it fixes my problem, that is my main concern. thanks again for all the help i will keep posted to see if it fixes my issue.

Good luck. Seems all the horror stories I've read had to do with the front tensioners breaking and causing catastrophic failure.

Fact is out of 300 people I know of who have used a manual tensioner, only three have gone overboard on tightening them and all three corrected the issue after either realizing having the engine idle slow was wrong or contacting me to get input. In one case the rider just didn't believe that the adjustment would be that light (taking out only the play, turning the bolt in finger tight and not putting pressure on the chain), in another the rider realized he was not actually hearing cam drive rattle, and the third actually had an issue, but it was the air induction reed block on the top of his engine clicking due to not being assembled properly rather than the cam drive. So that's about 1%.

Hi Simone!

Well, the prices here in Norway is unfortunatly nowhere close to the prices in Serbia. A complete 02-03 Superhawk in good condition will cost around $13500 on the used market in Norway.

My only option is to let the workshop search for the problem for me. I do not have a garage, the tools or the experience to do a repair like this myself. They estimated 10 working hours to locate the problem and change the parts involved in the damaged engine. They take $170 an hour(!), so that will be at least $1700 + the cost of the parts ($700-1000).

When all this is done, it's still a chance that one of the pistons is damaged or something like that, but that's only fully testable after the neccecary parts have been changed, and this will lead to additional expences. Unfortunatly I do not have a valve factory nearby either...

My "new" engine has arrived at the workshop and seems to be in good working condition. The new engine is also two years newer, and has 36000 less miles on it, this will lead to a quite big increase in the value of my Hawk!
They are putting it in on thursday, I will tell you all how it goes :)

well what can i say... didn't know that things are so expensive in Norway... still i can sense something is not right 10 hours to open and replace and reassemble its a bit to much for experienced mechanic. any how good thing is that you have found a solution for the problem.
cheers man!