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CCTs-How to change OEM to Manual Ape CCTs

Old 04-29-2007, 12:31 PM
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CCTs-How to change OEM to Manual Ape CCTs

Hi all,

I have finished exchanging the OEM CCTs to the APE Manual CCTs and would like to share my experience for those wanting to do the same. This is an easy removal and installation IF YOU TAKE YOUR TIME and THAT YOU DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING before removal of the factory CCT.

I have scoured the forum for inputs and also the factory manual before I tackled this and I would like to take this opportunity to thank those that have posted materials related to this install. The reason I decided to tackle this on my own was not wanting to spend $200 for someone else to screw with my Hawk and get some satisfaction of doing it myself.

Remember this is my experience and I will take you through step by step. I don't think it will be too hard to follow and you will likely succeed if you have a little mechanical skill, proper tools and PATIENCE. BUT if you still screw up by the end of all this then ....sucks to be you and go blame someone else:-) .But don't worry too much as I will detailed below a remedy if the sprocket happened to jump as you remove the CCT.

Before we begin, here is a little history and the purpose of the CCTs:


The main purpose of the CCT is to supply tension to the timing chain. Honda uses an Automatic Tensioner to accomplish this task. This is a spring loaded piston that keeps tension on the chain guide so that the chain would always supply enough pressure to keep the chain in conjunction with the sprocket, hence, proper timing.

The problem with this auto tensioner is that if the spring within the tensioner fails, the chain would lose its' tension resulting in skipping of the chain/sprocket. It is well documented that the unit Honda supply and perhaps what they have implemented in their engine design is faulty. The failure of this unit will result in catastrophic failure of a running engine as it is directly attributed to the piston hitting the valve(s). This is similar to cars that have their tension belt break.

To remedy this situation, a number of solutions have been attempted. Honda with their upgrade of the tensioner, modification of existing tensioner via stronger spring by some and the implementation of a manual tensioner.

The most accepted solution for this problem seem to be the use of the APE Manual Tensioner. This is a machined unit with a bolt in the middle and a locking nut. The idea behind this is to supply constant tension without the tensioner ever 'backing out' as the bolt would be fixed in a constant pressure position thereby preventing chain and sprocket skipping. The problem with this unit is that it must be set properly as to not being too loose or too tight.

If too loose, skipping will result whereas too tight abnormal wear would be a problem.

I hope this explain the purpose of the CCT.

As to - do they blow up or break at certain km?...It is hard to say as some have theirs fail fairly early on while others have not yet failed at high engine life. It all seem to be a crap shoot. I would think the way each bike is driven have direct impact on when it fails. Between the two CCT on the Hawk, the one in the front cylinder is the most likely to fail as it is mounted in a position that lacks oil flow. But this is not always the case.



Let's Begin



Tools you will need:

Socket set with extension namely:
8mm, 10mm (Tank removal)
allen key adapter (or a set of allen key - CCT and timing hole removal)
5/8, 9/16 wrench (adjust APE unit)

pliers (retaining ring on gas line)
Phillips screwdriver (air box removal)
a flat head screwdriver (gas line removal)
a razor blade
locktite (blue stuff)

Most importantly PATIENCE.


Step 1: Put the Hawk on a Center stand that will allow you to rotate the rear wheel.

Step 2: Remove the Timing hole nut (Left side of the hawk-nut to the left) and locate the "RT" mark .




This is done by putting the Hawk in 6th gear (thanks nuhawk and slowhawk) and move the rear wheel until the "RT" mark is aligned with the mark on the casing. When the marks are aligned, the TDC (Top Dead Center) is reached for the rear cylinder. Remember the mark has to be exactly aligned. View it dead on not to the side as it will skew the alignment. If you happen to miss it by just a little, just give the rear wheel a tug and it will move the mark ever so slightly. Remember that if you continue to miss the mark by rotating the wheel, eventually it will become almost impossible to move it because of the compression in the cylinder. You can relief this pressure by starting the hawk and start over. To be safe and assured that there is absolutely no tension on the lobe, it is recommended to open the cam cover but it is not necessary if care is taken when removing the CCT as detailed below.

Step 3: Locate the CCTs

On the hawk there are two. One at the rear near the shocks which can easily be seen here.



The Front is much more difficult to see and get at but it is located on the left hand side in front of the thermostat housing and under the airbox. To get to this one you will need to remove the Gas Tank and the air box. I will go into that later. Let's tackle the rear.

At this point you CAN remove the rear CCT (Only if the above steps have been followed and that you have assured that it is at TDC). If you are unsure, DON'T remove the CCT. The removal of the CCT when the cylinder is not TDC will result in the sprocket jumping the chain. If that happens, go get a trailer and prepare to have Honda Service Department laugh at you when they repair your mess. (After I wrote this, I realized this can easily be remedy.) please see below note.

If you are guaranteed that the cylinder is at TDC, then you can begin removing the OEM CCT by removing the nut on each side of the CCT. Remove a little and give it a tap on the CCT to break the pressure seal from the gasket and the CCT. You'd be surprise how effective the paper gasket held the CCT to the engine. Alternating one nut to the other will ensure that the chain guide will not jump and will slowly release it's pressure on the timing chains.

I, however wanted some peace of mind and decided to verify that the lobes are not putting pressure on the valves (therefore TDC), so I decided to remove the cam cover to verify. The gasket on the camcover is reusable so you need not to replace. I also decided to plastic tie wrap the sprocket with the chain. This will ensure that should my TDC is not correct, the sprocket will not jump.



If you view the following images you will see that the cylinder was not quite TDC since there was a slight bowing in the chain after I removed the rear CCT. This was the result of the mark not completely aligned and improper breaking of the seal.



Note:


If upon removing the CCT and you hear a 'click' (That's what happened to me because it was 1) not TDC and 2) the CCT was removed too quickly because of improper breaking of the seal), chances are the sprocket has jumped. Relax, it is not all bad as you think since it has only jumped one or two tooth. For the Rear Cylinder, the exhaust sprocket will be the only one that jumped as the intake cam is held by the crank. For the fronts, it will be the Intake Cam. If you believed it has jumped, you will need to remove the cam cover to fix the problem. Upon removal of the cover and you are still at TDC or close to it, loosen the CCT so that no pressure is on the guide. You will notice that even with the CCT completely removed (for the rear) the Intake cam will not move as it is held by the crank as noted above. Push the chain out of the sprocket teeth a bit and rotate the Sprocket back into position.

The following is what I had to do in order to fix the jump that happened on the rear cylinder on this particular removal. I discovered it after the Hawk ran oddly after finishing my install. My sign was a stumble at around 2500 rpm. Anyway, my exhaust cam jumped 2 teeth clockwise because the lobe were in a position that rotated the cam when the CCT was removed a little too quickly. A view of both cam lobe position will give you the clue as to which way the sprocket jumped. Remember only one cam will jump. (exhaust for the rear and intake for the front as noted). Now you will need to engage the sprocket back into where it was before. For me the manual was useless because it was completely wrong so I had to experiment. I knew it wasn't far off in the first place so I moved one tooth, buttoned it up and ran the bike.

You might be concern about the possibility of catastrophe by running while not properly timed but the valve traveled so little, given one tooth difference, the piston would not have hit it. Remember Piston hitting valve, typically on OEM CCT failure, only happens if the timing is drastically off (multiple jumps as the result of complete failure). In my case, two teeth counterclockwise was needed. I also moved it away from TDC to make the adjustment easier. As I rotate off TDC, the intake valve was engaged with the intake cam lobe. I held it further in place with wire tie just as extra caution even though it was already secured by the crank. I then back out the CCT completely and made my adjustment. This method was easier since I did not need to exert any pressure while moving the cam sprocket.



Step 4: Removing the rear CCT

Once you remove the CCT (residue oil will flow out), you will be left with some residue from the factory paper gasket. Remove the residue gasket with a razor blade to ensure that the new APE unit and the gasket will have a clean surface to be fastened to.



Step 5: APE CCT preparation and installation



Adjust the locking nut so that it will allow the Ape main nut to be able to insert fully into the chain guide. Doing this now will be a lot easier than doing so while it is attached to the engine. Insert the APE unit along with the gasket. At this point, I place some locktite on the two bolt before I bolt it. This will ensure that it will not wriggle loose with the vibration.

Step 6: Adjust the CCT and lock it in place



Adjust the main nut according to APE instructions: "Finger tight and 1/4 turn back and lock it in place with the locking nut -1/4"to 3/8" play " - for the hawk it's not practical to measure this play. On a side note: When I finger tight the bolt, it seemed to me to be a lot looser than the original OEM set up. Maybe I have weak fingers but it seems to be a little too loose for my liking, so I tightened it further with a wench where I felt comfortable. At this point, you're done with the rear cylinder. Put everything back in place and make sure you remove the plastic tie if you happen to follow my procedure of opening the cam cover. Now Double check everything. With that done we can now to tackle the front CCT.

To change the Front CCT you will need to remove partially the Air Box unless you are cursed with small hands.



Remove all the screws holding the Snorkel and the main airbox to the Carburator (fuel injection could be a little different - someone verify). Be careful not to drop anything down the intake. These screws will also need to have locktite place onto the threads when it is retightened. Once you have the airbox removed partially, you will be able to locate the front CCT.



THE FOLLOWING IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT:

You will need to FIND THE TDC of the FRONT cylinder. Remember the "RT" mark at the timing hole? You need to locate the "FT" mark. This mark is for the Front Cylinder. Once you find that follow the same procedure as for the rear cylinder. I decided to not remove the front cam cover since I was double sure that the mark is correct. This was not a problem and it turned out fine.

So that's it. You just saved $200. Now send me $50

Hope that helps
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Old 04-29-2007, 01:32 PM
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Calitoz, you're the man. I've been hopin for someone to put together a 'how to' as detailed as that was.
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Old 04-29-2007, 01:40 PM
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make sticky!!!
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Old 04-29-2007, 01:54 PM
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Steppin' UP! Good job, Lou!
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Old 04-29-2007, 03:42 PM
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you're all welcome...now where is my $50?
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Old 04-29-2007, 08:10 PM
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We spent it on postage from Canada!
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Old 04-29-2007, 11:04 PM
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Nice writeup. Thanks!
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:23 AM
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good writeup bud
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:27 AM
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Awesome write up. Gonna tackle this in the off season.
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Old 04-30-2007, 10:57 AM
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THANK YOU! I've had the apes sitting on my bench for a month dreading this job ...and that I might screw it up. (which is still likely)

...it's $50 canadian, right? cheers,
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Old 04-30-2007, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Streaky View Post
THANK YOU! I've had the apes sitting on my bench for a month dreading this job ...and that I might screw it up. (which is still likely)

...it's $50 canadian, right? cheers,

I'll take 50 Rubles..
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Old 04-30-2007, 08:31 PM
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50 Yen comin your way
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Old 04-30-2007, 09:18 PM
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50 pesos
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:43 AM
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TDC question

is there any pressure on the valve train (chains, cams, etc.) if you do not verify which TDC you are at? just locating TDC from the timing mark on the crank alone will not tell you which stroke you are TDC on. i know when "re-timing" an engine you have to know which TDC you are at - is that not important when just replacing CCT's on a correctly timed engine? i am about to help a friend replace his CCT's and just wondering if there is a chance of cams having pressure on valves if not at correct TDC.
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Old 05-01-2007, 08:10 AM
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cool write up, i have two questions. I have the motor on a stand by itself, since i can't follow your directions. would the procedure be the same? or is there anything i should know if i have the motor off the bike? i figure that i will have to turn the motor by the crank. also, that fifty bucks can i get a payment plan, or you can have 75,000 Iraqi dinars I have left over from my last vacation.

thanks jose
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Old 05-01-2007, 09:55 AM
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Yes, the TDC has to be on the compression stroke. This can be verified by either pulling a plug and checking for compression or pulling the valve covers to verify the position of the cams.
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Old 05-01-2007, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ATLSHawk98 View Post
is there any pressure on the valve train (chains, cams, etc.) if you do not verify which TDC you are at?.
YES...When it is not at TDC, one of the valve or valve(s) could be in an engaged position per lobe profile. If you relief the pressure from the CCT the valve spring will push the lobe (cam) and with no resistence from the chain holding it, it will jump. The damage does not happen yet as the piston still remains stationary. The problem would be when you put everything back without being properly timed and start the engine, the piston might (likely) hit the valve face since it was out of time. The bottomline is should your remove the CCT before it is TDC, it still is salvageble. Just maek sure you do not start the bike and have it retimed properly per manual.

Originally Posted by ATLSHawk98 View Post
is just locating TDC from the timing mark on the crank alone will not tell you which stroke you are TDC on. i know when "re-timing" an engine you have to know which TDC you are at - is that not important when just replacing CCT's on a correctly timed engine?
You are correct that this is the case. The timing mark will only indicate two separate stages of the cylinder. One is where the lobes are completely "off" the valve guides. The other is when the lobes slightly is engaged. But for the purpose of the CCTs installation/removal, you can go forward at the mark if slow removal of the OEM is adhered to.


Originally Posted by ATLSHawk98 View Post
i am about to help a friend replace his CCT's and just wondering if there is a chance of cams having pressure on valves if not at correct TDC.
Definitely...
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Old 05-01-2007, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Firehawk_ordie View Post
cool write up, i have two questions. I have the motor on a stand by itself, since i can't follow your directions. would the procedure be the same? or is there anything i should know if i have the motor off the bike? i figure that i will have to turn the motor by the crank. also, that fifty bucks can i get a payment plan, or you can have 75,000 Iraqi dinars I have left over from my last vacation.

thanks jose

The only difference like you said is that you need to access the Crank to turn the engine to the timing mark. Other than that, everything else is the same. BUT if you have the engine out...why not take the covers off too?...This is a great way to learn about the engine...while you have that off, let's change the cams too ..........As per the &5,000 Iraqi dinars...I'll take one of Sadam's golden gun if that is availble
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Old 05-01-2007, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nuhawk View Post
50 pesos
You're exempt...I still owe you $15, I think
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Old 05-01-2007, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by calitoz View Post
The only difference like you said is that you need to access the Crank to turn the engine to the timing mark. Other than that, everything else is the same. BUT if you have the engine out...why not take the covers off too?...This is a great way to learn about the engine...while you have that off, let's change the cams too ..........As per the &5,000 Iraqi dinars...I'll take one of Sadam's golden gun if that is availble
Thanks man, yeah i am taking the covers off to check the valve clearance. as far as the golden gun is concerened i wish i had one too. But i have the next best tining

Name:  goldengun-1.jpg
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a picture of one IN Iraq (mister federal government)
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Old 05-03-2007, 05:48 PM
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Modification of original Post

Please see original post for more info.

Addition include some more procedure and details and remedy of my mistake on this install/removal
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Old 05-29-2007, 04:05 PM
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One thing I have noticed on higher mileage SH's (like mine) is that the cam chain tends to stretch a bit, and getting the marks on the sprockets to exactly line up with the cylinder head isn't as cut and dried at the manual would have it seem.
Especially if you have the chain jump (which is also pretty easy, even at tdc). What I have discovered, and the manual doesn't mention, is that you can do a quick check to make sure your sprockets are in phase with each other by counting the pins on the cam chain between the two timing marks. It should be 36pins. I got mine back together, and the idle didn't seem quite as I remembered it. Of course I am hypersensitive to change after doing anything like that, and thought I could be imagining it, but after a short ride with the new gearing didn't seem as peppy as I thought it should, I tore the cam covers off again and checked. I got out a magnifying glass and counted links on the picture in the manual. 18 links/36 pins. Checked my rear. 35. Well how about that? Got it back to where it should be, and timing marks are (more or less) even with the cylinder head. She runs very happy now. Good write up Calitoz!

-R
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Old 06-11-2007, 12:44 AM
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BLAKCK HAWK
WHAT'S THE MILEAGE to do THIS CCT CHANGE. i have 19k right now.
and what/where are "apes" ?
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:42 PM
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Where is the timing hole nut? I can't find it.
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Old 06-22-2007, 06:26 PM
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ok, found it... what happens when you drop a nut down in the area where the cam chain/sprokets are and you cant see it or fish it out with a magnent?..... It's going to be a long weekend
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Old 06-27-2007, 07:25 AM
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Subscribed for future use? Anyone have a link for APE - google is not being nice to me today!
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Old 06-29-2007, 01:57 PM
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Calitoz.......great man....great!! I've had mine sitting on my bench for a while also....finally dug into them this morning. Just got back from taking her out, and she purrs like a kitten. Pics were a major help. Now I don't have that annoying rattle that kicked in around 2500-3000rpm. Great write up!!!

blacksheep - Check eBay for the APE's.....that's where I got mine. $120 w/ shipping, don't think that is too bad. I don't remember what store I got mine from now, but it was on eBay. Make sure they either come with new gaskets or you order/ can make them. Mine didn't have the new gaskets, but I had a gasket sheet here to make them. You have to replace the old ones, they get torn up when removing the old CCT.
Here's a brief overview of the APE's:
[URL="http://www.sudco.com/apeCamshain.html"]
I'm sure someone else would have better info for you on here....just my 2 cents.
T
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Old 06-29-2007, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by saxman View Post
Calitoz.......great man....great!! I've had mine sitting on my bench for a while also....finally dug into them this morning. Just got back from taking her out, and she purrs like a kitten. Pics were a major help. Now I don't have that annoying rattle that kicked in around 2500-3000rpm. Great write up!!!

blacksheep - Check eBay for the APE's.....that's where I got mine. $120 w/ shipping, don't think that is too bad. I don't remember what store I got mine from now, but it was on eBay. Make sure they either come with new gaskets or you order/ can make them. Mine didn't have the new gaskets, but I had a gasket sheet here to make them. You have to replace the old ones, they get torn up when removing the old CCT.
Here's a brief overview of the APE's:
[URL="http://www.sudco.com/apeCamshain.html"]
I'm sure someone else would have better info for you on here....just my 2 cents.
T
you're all welcome....My next project is a R1 or 954 front end swap (have parts coming, not sure which I will do yet) and SSS install. I will attempt the same write up as well.

As per the cost of CCT I brought mine for 116 shipped - that was even to Canada. here are the details

daniel shively ([email protected]) would like to be paid through PayPal.

Money Request Details
Amount: $116.00 USD
Note: there you go. 2 tensioners at 45, 2 gaskets at 3
shipping at 20.
total 116.00
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:47 AM
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Thanks for "calitoz way" of doing this DIY.
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Old 07-02-2007, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by blacksheep View Post
Subscribed for future use? Anyone have a link for APE - google is not being nice to me today!

http://www.aperaceparts.com/
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