FINALLY OUT OF THE SHOP
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,864
From: Fort Wayne, IN
After speaking with rancho today I'll say that I've begun to agree that it's probably in the carbs. The poor fuel mileage is the key - the cam timing being off won't cause that much of a drop.
My suggestion is to get the carbs good and clean and see what happens. If it's still not running correctly then at least you can eliminate a possibility.
My suggestion is to get the carbs good and clean and see what happens. If it's still not running correctly then at least you can eliminate a possibility.
evil man of nothing
MotoGP
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,517
From: Boynton Beach, FL
+1 on cleaning the carbs just to eliminate that possibility.
But I'm sorry I'm just amazed a shop would take $2100 and give you back a bike that doesn't run properly. Did no one ride it, test and tune it after they were done??? Just throw it back together and say "HERE." **** that! What is that ****?! If it needed additional work then fine. They should say it also needs this, this, and this and this is how much it's going to cost...I mean if you're obviously not doing the work yourself what did they expect you to do with the bike besides just bring it right back? Ridiculous...I really hope they make it right.
But I'm sorry I'm just amazed a shop would take $2100 and give you back a bike that doesn't run properly. Did no one ride it, test and tune it after they were done??? Just throw it back together and say "HERE." **** that! What is that ****?! If it needed additional work then fine. They should say it also needs this, this, and this and this is how much it's going to cost...I mean if you're obviously not doing the work yourself what did they expect you to do with the bike besides just bring it right back? Ridiculous...I really hope they make it right.
OCMD honorary member
Superstock
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 252
From: Olympia, WA
+1 on cleaning the carbs just to eliminate that possibility.
But I'm sorry I'm just amazed a shop would take $2100 and give you back a bike that doesn't run properly. Did no one ride it, test and tune it after they were done??? Just throw it back together and say "HERE." **** that! What is that ****?! If it needed additional work then fine. They should say it also needs this, this, and this and this is how much it's going to cost...I mean if you're obviously not doing the work yourself what did they expect you to do with the bike besides just bring it right back? Ridiculous...I really hope they make it right.
But I'm sorry I'm just amazed a shop would take $2100 and give you back a bike that doesn't run properly. Did no one ride it, test and tune it after they were done??? Just throw it back together and say "HERE." **** that! What is that ****?! If it needed additional work then fine. They should say it also needs this, this, and this and this is how much it's going to cost...I mean if you're obviously not doing the work yourself what did they expect you to do with the bike besides just bring it right back? Ridiculous...I really hope they make it right.
Rancho can you post a copy of your invoice? Does it say anything like....
Reassembled bike and test. Runs good. Or not running right suggest carburetor clean, more?
See where I'm getting at????
I'm not saying to go after something you are not entitled to.
I would clean the carbs first and then go back if you need to.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,689
From: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
I should have asked this before. I don't see the question raised - maybe I missed it.
Are both header pipes getting hot?
It seems like you are getting about 50% fuel efficiency. Is it running on one cylinder and dumping raw fuel into the other? Have you checked for spark on both?
Are both header pipes getting hot?
It seems like you are getting about 50% fuel efficiency. Is it running on one cylinder and dumping raw fuel into the other? Have you checked for spark on both?
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 677
From: Rancho Cordova, California
OK, another update. I took the advice of pulling the choke and rolling on the throttle, "flat" goes away more and more the further I pull the choke. As for my mileage, I found a nice big whole in the front cylinder main gas line! I also found the stacks reversed in the airbox. Who knows what else I'll find this shop did wrong : / I'm waiting to call them on all of it until I get some help making it run right and seeing if they screwed up anything that they worked on. 8541 Hawk, has vey graciously volunteered to drive up here (like an hour and a half!) and help check my carbs and maybe the cam chain issue. It would appear it's running super lean, which has nothing to do with what the shop did. Strange thing is, it does not get hot at all. That may be explained by the fact that it's been in the low 50's high 40's here! I'll keep you guys posted. Thanks a ton for all of the input too.
Wrench Bender
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 96
From: Auburn, CA
One thing to remember is that lean is hot but very lean gets cold as there is not enough fuel to get too hot. Fuel air mixture goes rich to peak to lean. Peak makes te most HP but can also detonate (burn holes in pistons). Just rich of peak you get good power but high head temps. Lean of peak you get decent power and cooler head temps. My goal is to be 75 degrees rich of peak on the EGT. Caramel colored sparkplugs.
If you have pluged jets, the bike can run but not get enough fuel to make power or heat.
If you have pluged jets, the bike can run but not get enough fuel to make power or heat.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 677
From: Rancho Cordova, California
Yeah and if you read the early parts of this thread, A lot of things point to that! I know nothing about most of that. I've gotten a lot of good info here I just haven't gotten up the courage to tear into it myself. Someone on my side of the Country (8541Hawk) is going to come up and help me out.
Wrench Bender
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 96
From: Auburn, CA
Hey, I am with you. I work on what I know, and if I am not sure I like someone who knows to jump in and help. i would love to get together with you and 8451 to check this out. My new to me SH does not match up to the claims on this board. I would love to get a comparison. I am not unhappy with its performance, but it does not scare me with power.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,934
From: altoona, pa
These attributes are especially noteworthy in that this "reduced drama" leaves more attention for dealing with all the factors that present on the street, such as, cars pulling out of hidden drives, road debris on blind curves, oncoming traffic, guard rails, bridge abuments, and the myriad of other hazards that do not occur on the track.
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 153
From: Vancouver, WA
VTS: “I can't move it a half tooth dammit.... Anyone feel me on this one?”
Right there with you on the "half tooth" issue there VTS. I believe this is a potential root cause to the way my 'Hawk has run since I got it almost 3.5 years ago and after digging and searching and then coming home with a timing light to find the ignition off by 7+ degrees (With a Factory Pro 4degree ignition advance.) I am determined there really is something wrong with the way Honda put this bike together somehow. Something is missing in the manual - I dunno'.
I'd had the valve covers off at the same time and looked over the timing marks 10,000 times and I just have to call BS on Honda. There is something definitely taking place for those of us who have been fighting the "flat power delivery." I don't remember what my compression was at for each cylinder butI believe it to have been at about 125-130psi. This can't be right because I don't burn any oil for the most part and I'm not burning any extra gas or oil and such. This leads me to believe the teeth are off by as to my account - half a tooth in the rear, and maybe 3/4 tooth in the front (Or vice versa, it was over the summer last year when I had it apart.).
My front end couldn't lift off the ground in 1st with everything being stock and me weighing in at ~150 (w/out gear) for the life of me.
I totally call BS on Honda - they F'in F'd something up somewhere along the line.
Anyway Ranchomice with those who have reviewed your status with your 'Hawk as having a carb' issue - for the most part - believe me, there are more than a few people on this site who have gone through some of the same head scratching as I have. Something just isn't right. It's like - the whole TPS issue where all of our TPS's are set to some 800+ ohms and the book indicates 500-510ohms. That's total BS - Honda missed a few key tid'bit's along the way somehow. I know well what this bike should run like, as that's why I invested in a one liter L'twin.
Anyway, as a side note - invest in a few tools and just give yourself some space to consider some of the things you learn a lil' from by just "taking something apart" (for the most part') but when you don't know something or something comes up about a "specialty tool" then back off, or invest in the proper tool to take you X amount further into whatever it is your playing with. So many of us learn just by screwing around with our own stuff at home. ...I mean... ...how could I have known the pistons were pressing up against the valve's "that one night" when I was torqueing down the cam' holders to the point where the intake camshaft absolutely literally snapped right in F'in' half so many years ago?!?!?! :P
Anyway mate - give yourself a lil' bit of space to permit yourself to discover, learn, learn about how far you can take your expertise and consider what you could improve on when you get to that point.
-Matt
Right there with you on the "half tooth" issue there VTS. I believe this is a potential root cause to the way my 'Hawk has run since I got it almost 3.5 years ago and after digging and searching and then coming home with a timing light to find the ignition off by 7+ degrees (With a Factory Pro 4degree ignition advance.) I am determined there really is something wrong with the way Honda put this bike together somehow. Something is missing in the manual - I dunno'.
I'd had the valve covers off at the same time and looked over the timing marks 10,000 times and I just have to call BS on Honda. There is something definitely taking place for those of us who have been fighting the "flat power delivery." I don't remember what my compression was at for each cylinder butI believe it to have been at about 125-130psi. This can't be right because I don't burn any oil for the most part and I'm not burning any extra gas or oil and such. This leads me to believe the teeth are off by as to my account - half a tooth in the rear, and maybe 3/4 tooth in the front (Or vice versa, it was over the summer last year when I had it apart.).
My front end couldn't lift off the ground in 1st with everything being stock and me weighing in at ~150 (w/out gear) for the life of me.
I totally call BS on Honda - they F'in F'd something up somewhere along the line.
Anyway Ranchomice with those who have reviewed your status with your 'Hawk as having a carb' issue - for the most part - believe me, there are more than a few people on this site who have gone through some of the same head scratching as I have. Something just isn't right. It's like - the whole TPS issue where all of our TPS's are set to some 800+ ohms and the book indicates 500-510ohms. That's total BS - Honda missed a few key tid'bit's along the way somehow. I know well what this bike should run like, as that's why I invested in a one liter L'twin.
Anyway, as a side note - invest in a few tools and just give yourself some space to consider some of the things you learn a lil' from by just "taking something apart" (for the most part') but when you don't know something or something comes up about a "specialty tool" then back off, or invest in the proper tool to take you X amount further into whatever it is your playing with. So many of us learn just by screwing around with our own stuff at home. ...I mean... ...how could I have known the pistons were pressing up against the valve's "that one night" when I was torqueing down the cam' holders to the point where the intake camshaft absolutely literally snapped right in F'in' half so many years ago?!?!?! :P
Anyway mate - give yourself a lil' bit of space to permit yourself to discover, learn, learn about how far you can take your expertise and consider what you could improve on when you get to that point.
-Matt
Last edited by Spaz'; Jan 25, 2010 at 07:05 AM. Reason: Incorrect font size.
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 153
From: Vancouver, WA
(Duplicate reply - sorry. Moderator would you please remove this second reply. TY -Matt 
)
)
Last edited by Spaz'; Jan 25, 2010 at 07:02 AM. Reason: Moderator - please remove this accidental double posting of my reply within this thread - TY - Matt
OCMD honorary member
Superstock
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 252
From: Olympia, WA
Spaz,
Did you get the timing sorted out?
I was told by an old timer that this appearance of 1/2 tooth off is timing chain stretch. I find that hard to believe on bikes with such low mileage that have not been cranked on. He also mentioned that along with production tolerances.
Did you get the timing sorted out?
I was told by an old timer that this appearance of 1/2 tooth off is timing chain stretch. I find that hard to believe on bikes with such low mileage that have not been cranked on. He also mentioned that along with production tolerances.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,934
From: altoona, pa
Spaz,
Did you get the timing sorted out?
I was told by an old timer that this appearance of 1/2 tooth off is timing chain stretch. I find that hard to believe on bikes with such low mileage that have not been cranked on. He also mentioned that along with production tolerances.
Did you get the timing sorted out?
I was told by an old timer that this appearance of 1/2 tooth off is timing chain stretch. I find that hard to believe on bikes with such low mileage that have not been cranked on. He also mentioned that along with production tolerances.
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 153
From: Vancouver, WA
VTS,
Nope – still living with the timing issue. Don’t nobody make fun of me, but I had to settle for a Harbor Freight timing light with an adjustable advance dial over the late summer or so of last year. It was like $40 or something and I definitely wanted to work with the adjustable advance and on top of it, it came with a Xeon (S?) light. There can only be so much tolerance within a simple setup like this and I guess for the most part I’d say it’s readings at least must be fairly close (If anyone else has had experience with Harbor Freight’s timing lights, drop a note in here would you please?).
Anyway, with the inductive clamp over the front spark plug wire (Note I have a 4 degree Factory Pro’ Ignition advance I installed.), to even get the frippin’ timing light mark on the flywheel to line up with the reference mark on the side of the crankcase, I had to adjust the timing advance on the timing light all the way up to like 10 degrees! So by its appearance, when the light goes off, the mark almost looks like it’s the equivalent of a full tooth off on the crankshaft. WTH?!
Yea, the idea of cam chain stretch has been brought up once before here at the site, and I believe it might be a lil’ difficult to stretch if no CCT failures have happened with the previous owner (Believe me, I’m open for all considerations of my problems – any help is certainly appreciated.) or something else unattractive. But I really have no clue and find it very odd one cylinder cam chain would come in at about ½ a tooth off, and the other at ¾ after I’d already perfectly [and I mean razor-blade-flush with the cylinder head perfect] lined up the timing marks on the sprockets and crankshaft flywheel and then released the CCT. One thing that crossed my mind though a few weeks ago was the possibility of the side to side free play from either side of the bolts that go through the sprockets to mount up on the cams’. Maybe there are a few degrees worth of something that needs to be biased in one direction or another? …I dunno’…
Out of curiosity, I even removed the rear CCT auto’ adjustment cap bolt and tried to tighten the chain down a little more after the engine had been up to operating temp’ for a little while. I never got to the front one cause I had just put everything back together (This was over the summer – browse through some of my postings around July ’09 to see what else I had to say.) and didn’t want to remove the tank and whatever else I needed to pull off, just to tighten the auto’ adjust’ CCT on the front cylinder.
So – with all of this in mind, I really… …don’t really burn oil for the most part. And the timing light mark is advanced or retarded by X number of degrees (the timing mark on the flywheel is identified as “above” the mark on the crankcase/flywheel cover.)… …I even went so far as to run the thing with the stock ignition advance in it the other year; however this was when I didn’t have a timing light and it still ran like hell. Moving right along: The compression (With the engine at OT, and the throttle wide open and the diaphragm for the cylinder(I know, I need to have both up when doing this… :\ ) under test being open – my compression came in at a considerable 25% something under the preferred spec’ of the 160psi mark. So this may equate to things being “off” at some point. Is it mechanical? Is it electrical? Does God not like me? Is he mad that I left an I4 for an L’twin? I don’t know, but other than those potential variables – at a bare minimum, over the last 3.5 years, I have settled with my bike running like complete *****’. I know damn well it’s not running like it should – the previous owner was totally full of ******* **** when he sold this thing to me (Believe me, I am pissed – and have been for 3.5 years – don’t call the light grey hair on the sides of my head ‘grey’ – I call it silver, and claim it to be completely irrelevant to my frustration over the issue of my red dressed Japanese girlfriend’s smiley’s being less perky than they should be. Ladies, don’t be turned off – I am a very sensitive guy – not racist or sexist or any such thing, and like all guys for the most part - we love you no matter what! J I’m just trying to make something light out of something so I don’t blow a frippin’ fuse; and for the most part this comment has some reference to a thread which was started about what we refer to our bikes as and such, “the twins,” “big jugs,” and I have always know them as the 498cc cup’s.
)
I’m off and on my way for the time being; I’m sure I’ll pass through here a lil’ before midnight or somethin’. Thank you VTS for the input; anything else from you or anyone for that matter is greatly appreciated.
-Spaz’matronic
Nope – still living with the timing issue. Don’t nobody make fun of me, but I had to settle for a Harbor Freight timing light with an adjustable advance dial over the late summer or so of last year. It was like $40 or something and I definitely wanted to work with the adjustable advance and on top of it, it came with a Xeon (S?) light. There can only be so much tolerance within a simple setup like this and I guess for the most part I’d say it’s readings at least must be fairly close (If anyone else has had experience with Harbor Freight’s timing lights, drop a note in here would you please?).
Anyway, with the inductive clamp over the front spark plug wire (Note I have a 4 degree Factory Pro’ Ignition advance I installed.), to even get the frippin’ timing light mark on the flywheel to line up with the reference mark on the side of the crankcase, I had to adjust the timing advance on the timing light all the way up to like 10 degrees! So by its appearance, when the light goes off, the mark almost looks like it’s the equivalent of a full tooth off on the crankshaft. WTH?!
Yea, the idea of cam chain stretch has been brought up once before here at the site, and I believe it might be a lil’ difficult to stretch if no CCT failures have happened with the previous owner (Believe me, I’m open for all considerations of my problems – any help is certainly appreciated.) or something else unattractive. But I really have no clue and find it very odd one cylinder cam chain would come in at about ½ a tooth off, and the other at ¾ after I’d already perfectly [and I mean razor-blade-flush with the cylinder head perfect] lined up the timing marks on the sprockets and crankshaft flywheel and then released the CCT. One thing that crossed my mind though a few weeks ago was the possibility of the side to side free play from either side of the bolts that go through the sprockets to mount up on the cams’. Maybe there are a few degrees worth of something that needs to be biased in one direction or another? …I dunno’…
Out of curiosity, I even removed the rear CCT auto’ adjustment cap bolt and tried to tighten the chain down a little more after the engine had been up to operating temp’ for a little while. I never got to the front one cause I had just put everything back together (This was over the summer – browse through some of my postings around July ’09 to see what else I had to say.) and didn’t want to remove the tank and whatever else I needed to pull off, just to tighten the auto’ adjust’ CCT on the front cylinder.
So – with all of this in mind, I really… …don’t really burn oil for the most part. And the timing light mark is advanced or retarded by X number of degrees (the timing mark on the flywheel is identified as “above” the mark on the crankcase/flywheel cover.)… …I even went so far as to run the thing with the stock ignition advance in it the other year; however this was when I didn’t have a timing light and it still ran like hell. Moving right along: The compression (With the engine at OT, and the throttle wide open and the diaphragm for the cylinder(I know, I need to have both up when doing this… :\ ) under test being open – my compression came in at a considerable 25% something under the preferred spec’ of the 160psi mark. So this may equate to things being “off” at some point. Is it mechanical? Is it electrical? Does God not like me? Is he mad that I left an I4 for an L’twin? I don’t know, but other than those potential variables – at a bare minimum, over the last 3.5 years, I have settled with my bike running like complete *****’. I know damn well it’s not running like it should – the previous owner was totally full of ******* **** when he sold this thing to me (Believe me, I am pissed – and have been for 3.5 years – don’t call the light grey hair on the sides of my head ‘grey’ – I call it silver, and claim it to be completely irrelevant to my frustration over the issue of my red dressed Japanese girlfriend’s smiley’s being less perky than they should be. Ladies, don’t be turned off – I am a very sensitive guy – not racist or sexist or any such thing, and like all guys for the most part - we love you no matter what! J I’m just trying to make something light out of something so I don’t blow a frippin’ fuse; and for the most part this comment has some reference to a thread which was started about what we refer to our bikes as and such, “the twins,” “big jugs,” and I have always know them as the 498cc cup’s.
)I’m off and on my way for the time being; I’m sure I’ll pass through here a lil’ before midnight or somethin’. Thank you VTS for the input; anything else from you or anyone for that matter is greatly appreciated.
-Spaz’matronic
See thread titled, "Finally right"!
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