FINALLY OUT OF THE SHOP
01-15-2010, 12:00 AM
#1
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Location: Rancho Cordova, California
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FINALLY OUT OF THE SHOP (UPDATE)
Picked it up today (new front piston, valve seats, valves etc.) and it feels like a pig. I never rode the bike full power, so I don't really know what it's supposed to feel/perform like. It seems to me like it's just slugging. Of course I'm not taking it much over 5-6k rpm due to a bit of a break in but, should I be able to open the throttle (fully) and not feel quite a bit of torque? This is the bike that has sat parked (garaged, 1,500 miles on the clock) for 9 out of it's 12 years of life, with only service visits to make it run, carbs, fluids etc. I had the carbs cleaned when I picked it up from So Cal, but not in like a tank at a shop. They were cleaned manually by a friend. I'm thinking this is my problem. Any feedback/coments/experience with this?
Last edited by ranchomice; 01-17-2010 at 02:44 PM.
01-15-2010, 05:17 AM
#2
evil man of nothing
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Well if you've never ridden the bike full power and you're already saying the bike feels like a pig then that's not good 
For the money you spent why not put the bike on a dyno so whoever "fixed" it can be accountable for however good/shitty the bike runs before too much time passes. If you whack the throttle open at 4k rpm the gas tank should hit you in the face, with stock gearing. The only time mine ever felt like a pig was when I (a) ran out of gas and (b) had just swapped over from my ZX12.
For the money you spent why not put the bike on a dyno so whoever "fixed" it can be accountable for however good/shitty the bike runs before too much time passes. If you whack the throttle open at 4k rpm the gas tank should hit you in the face, with stock gearing. The only time mine ever felt like a pig was when I (a) ran out of gas and (b) had just swapped over from my ZX12.
01-15-2010, 06:15 AM
#3
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Something is wrong, no one has ever described the SHawk as a pig. You should not be able to go full throttle in first with out the front wheel coming up hard. In second full throttle may pull the front wheel depending on your weight and the geering, but certainly if you slip the clutch a bit the front will come up.
If your not getting this, your bike is still fubar
If your not getting this, your bike is still fubar
01-15-2010, 07:52 AM
#5
Wrench Bender
Squid
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Location: Auburn, CA
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Rancho, when I picked mine up it had sat for a while too. I have been running AVGas and one one tank with Lucas fuel system treatment. It seems to be getting better and better. If the weather holds up, maybe we could get together and you can ride mine to compare.
01-15-2010, 08:02 AM
#6
COBB Member
Superstock
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Well.. the shop had the top end apart, means they had the carbs off. Maybe sync the carbs? also check that all the vac. line are right and tight.
After I had set up my carbs for ease of syncing, one of my plugs had popped off the vac line, bike ran like crap. Found the issue, big smiles after that, just a thought.
After I had set up my carbs for ease of syncing, one of my plugs had popped off the vac line, bike ran like crap. Found the issue, big smiles after that, just a thought.
01-15-2010, 08:48 AM
#8
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Oh, I will be taking it back! I'm pissed, handed them $2100! I did however tell them "no, don't clean the carbs, it was done already" : / Can this be the issue? If the carbs were cleaned manually, without being dunked or shaken, can this be the problem? I really wish I would have had them clean them right. I think what the deal is is that they only focused on the front cylinder and head, nothing else. It would seem during the test ride however (they told me they did) they would have absolutely noticed the bike running ok but lacking power!
01-15-2010, 05:16 PM
#9
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For sure the bike should feel like a ton of power. Compared to my Buell, the VTR feels like a rocket. Take it back and ask them for a dyno report...
Of course - the lack of power might not be anything to do with the repair...but if they're good, they'll know...
Of course - the lack of power might not be anything to do with the repair...but if they're good, they'll know...
01-15-2010, 05:48 PM
#11
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Rancho,
If they did not get the cam timing correct on reassembly the bike will run but it won't have full power. When one lines up the cam gear marks up to be level with the head it is possible to be off a tooth. For whatever reason on this bike, some in particular, it is impossible to get the lines to run parallel. You can put it in one position, install bolts, tensioner, grab the gear and move it back and forth "freeplay" and think you might be off one tooth either retarded or advanced. You then move the gear one tooth the way you think it would be closer to parallel with the head, low and behold it is off the same way just the on the opposite side. I can't move it a half tooth dammit.... Anyone feel me on this one?
I did not do a search, this is my own experience with mine and a couple of other VTRs. Some VTRs could be set spot on and would have the getup most here experience with the bike. Other folks don't experiece the same performance although they don't have anything else to gauge it to, so it seems like a fast bike esp higher RPMs that "mask" the timing issue.
I'm thinking that if you or anyone out there for that matter that knows their compression is fine, air cleaner good, Carbs clean and tuned, and the bike still does not have the bottom end stink that is eye opening, Cam timing is one thing to look at. If anyone thinks otherwise please feel free to call me out on this. I would describe the running as a little "fluttery" "soft" or just off...But you would have to be able to compare it to a known good Hawk or just good with engines to really pick up on it.
Remember this is just an idea, it may not be the problem with your bike.
I'd like to add a joke here to lighten the mood but what you have going on is really just not that funny. Sorry dude.
If they did not get the cam timing correct on reassembly the bike will run but it won't have full power. When one lines up the cam gear marks up to be level with the head it is possible to be off a tooth. For whatever reason on this bike, some in particular, it is impossible to get the lines to run parallel. You can put it in one position, install bolts, tensioner, grab the gear and move it back and forth "freeplay" and think you might be off one tooth either retarded or advanced. You then move the gear one tooth the way you think it would be closer to parallel with the head, low and behold it is off the same way just the on the opposite side. I can't move it a half tooth dammit.... Anyone feel me on this one?
I did not do a search, this is my own experience with mine and a couple of other VTRs. Some VTRs could be set spot on and would have the getup most here experience with the bike. Other folks don't experiece the same performance although they don't have anything else to gauge it to, so it seems like a fast bike esp higher RPMs that "mask" the timing issue.
I'm thinking that if you or anyone out there for that matter that knows their compression is fine, air cleaner good, Carbs clean and tuned, and the bike still does not have the bottom end stink that is eye opening, Cam timing is one thing to look at. If anyone thinks otherwise please feel free to call me out on this. I would describe the running as a little "fluttery" "soft" or just off...But you would have to be able to compare it to a known good Hawk or just good with engines to really pick up on it.
Remember this is just an idea, it may not be the problem with your bike.
I'd like to add a joke here to lighten the mood but what you have going on is really just not that funny. Sorry dude.
01-15-2010, 11:56 PM
#12
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Well, like I said, it sat for 9 of 12 years. I should have had the carbs cleaned right in a sonic tank. I opted not to and this is the conclusion the mechanic and myself have come to being at least one of the problems. If that's so, it has nothing to do with the work they did. I'm going to have them done when we do the valve clearance check at 500-1000 mi. The bike runs great to just cruise on. I'm at 80mph at 4k rpm. It's just kind of flat as if it's rich or just partially blocked carbs. I'm not a mechanic but I believe there are a lot of areas in those carbs that can't be "reached" manually to clean. I'm gonna break in the rebuilt front cyl. and rings and such,then have the valve clearance checked, carbs cleaned in the sonic tank, factory pro jet kit installed, and see what it's like. I'll keep you guys posted and I really appreciate all of the insight here! It seems hard to find mechanics familliar with this bike. Even very good, meticulous mechanics just seem unfamilliar with the VTR.
Last edited by ranchomice; 01-16-2010 at 12:03 AM.
01-16-2010, 12:04 AM
#13
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01-16-2010, 05:02 AM
#14
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Well, like I said, it sat for 9 of 12 years. I should have had the carbs cleaned right in a sonic tank. I opted not to and this is the conclusion the mechanic and myself have come to being at least one of the problems. If that's so, it has nothing to do with the work they did. I'm going to have them done when we do the valve clearance check at 500-1000 mi. The bike runs great to just cruise on. I'm at 80mph at 4k rpm. It's just kind of flat as if it's rich or just partially blocked carbs. I'm not a mechanic but I believe there are a lot of areas in those carbs that can't be "reached" manually to clean. I'm gonna break in the rebuilt front cyl. and rings and such,then have the valve clearance checked, carbs cleaned in the sonic tank, factory pro jet kit installed, and see what it's like. I'll keep you guys posted and I really appreciate all of the insight here! It seems hard to find mechanics familliar with this bike. Even very good, meticulous mechanics just seem unfamilliar with the VTR.
Seems like a reasonable plan... I'd be itching to get stuff done though, but that's just me...
The reason a lot of mechanics have a hard time with the VTR are quite simple... Honda was copying the Ducati in essence but decided to forego the peaky race like behaviour of the Ducati engine and make the bike a bit more allround... So they stuck a bigger flywheel, less race sharp cams and two honking big CV carbs in there...
This is actually a smart move, as the big carbs can easily feed the engine lots of fuel for when you twist the fun handle, but because of the size they are a bit lazy...
It's a good compromise, the VTR is a lot nicer to dawdle around on... A Ducati is never ever a nice ride in traffic... It will protest, scream and shout all the way... So most mechanics have problems tuning them, because on other carbed bikes you generally tune for a peak... Slam one gear, then the next... Up and down... A ducati has a wide peak, but still a peak... A VTR in good tune has more of a an arc...
And that genereally is a foreign concept for them... Basicly if you tune it like a sportsbike it becomes difficult to ride... Tune it more like a cruiser and it becomes a blast in the corners...
01-16-2010, 10:12 AM
#15
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Believe me, I AM itching to get things done. I'm waiting because they want to charge me $260 more to pull and tank the carbs. If they do it when they do the valve clearance check they'll give me a big break. Also it needs a bit of a break in and I would have a really hard time not being hard on it. Maybe this is the motorcycle Gods watching out for my bike. I really wish i knew what I was doing. I think if I, or anyone else gets in there to check the cam chain timing thing, I'd void the warrenty on their work. How common is this issue that VTS is talking about? I'm a bit concearned about that now. But it runs really good, just no launch like it should have. You open the throttle full and it's just flat. Excelerates, but flat. Also coughs sometimes at stops.
Last edited by ranchomice; 01-16-2010 at 10:24 AM.
01-16-2010, 12:51 PM
#16
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With new pistons and rings, I would be inclined to let it run in before going in search of full throttle power etc.
The jets are more than likely gummed up with petrol varnish, which would make the bike run lean and hot. Easily checked on the road by pulling the choke about 1/4'', doing a throttle roll-on and see if this improves things. If it does, you are definitely lean, if it makes it worse you are running rich.
The jets are more than likely gummed up with petrol varnish, which would make the bike run lean and hot. Easily checked on the road by pulling the choke about 1/4'', doing a throttle roll-on and see if this improves things. If it does, you are definitely lean, if it makes it worse you are running rich.
01-16-2010, 02:34 PM
#17
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It actually seems to be running cool but I don't know where normal is, it's my first hawk. Hell, it's my first water cooled bike! Keep in mind though, I haven't even been on the freeway with it and I've barely been more that about 15, 20 miles at one time. It's also only been high 40's low 50's mid day here in Nor. Cal. You're right, until the rings and such come in fully, I don't need wide open, high rpm.
01-16-2010, 02:58 PM
#18
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I went back to my log (yes I often write crap down) and also spoke with my friend that I helped to review the story. To correct myself, and I apologize if I steered anyone out there the wrong way, It was my bike that I noticed the marks not being perfectly parallel, no problem it runs great. My friend's bike I found the rear cam timing out of sync with the front. The bike ran and idled but was a dog (down on power). I have ridden a couple of hawks since then and believe this to be true with them as well. It is a night and day difference.
Roll on the gas in first, just roll on, no wicking or cranking on the throttle, and the bike will pull into a wheelie.
In the service manual if you go to section 8 (cylinder head/valve) It will walk you through the correct sequence for cam timing. I found his rear timing to be off from the front. Once corrected with the cams facing up and all indicators in the proper place, the bike ran like it should.
Roll on the gas in first, just roll on, no wicking or cranking on the throttle, and the bike will pull into a wheelie.
In the service manual if you go to section 8 (cylinder head/valve) It will walk you through the correct sequence for cam timing. I found his rear timing to be off from the front. Once corrected with the cams facing up and all indicators in the proper place, the bike ran like it should.
01-17-2010, 06:19 PM
#21
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As suggested the valve timing could be off. Also you could try running some seafoam through the carbs.
01-17-2010, 09:28 PM
#22
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What the heck am I supposed to do? If I have them take it apart and check the timing and I'm wrong about it, I'll owe them even more money. I've given them far too much of my money already! On the other hand, if I have someone else look at it, that would probably void their warranty. What should I do, ride it until the valve clearance check after break in?
01-18-2010, 07:54 AM
#23
Wrench Bender
Squid
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Auburn, CA
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You always have tho option of taking it back now and telling them that it just is not right and you want it fixed. If we are talking about a reputable shop, they should make it right. Did they tell you when you picked up the bike that it did not run correctly? Did they try to blame the carbs then? I operate an Aircraft repair facility here in Auburn and if one of my customers was unhappy, I would fix it. Just remember that all service business need happy customers.
01-18-2010, 08:49 AM
#24
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What the heck am I supposed to do? If I have them take it apart and check the timing and I'm wrong about it, I'll owe them even more money. I've given them far too much of my money already! On the other hand, if I have someone else look at it, that would probably void their warranty. What should I do, ride it until the valve clearance check after break in?
01-18-2010, 11:19 AM
#25
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Who cares what color his exhaust is? Who cares what it might be?
Fact is, he paid for a service. He paid for repairs. If it left the shop not running like it did when it entered the shop. The shop needs to fix it.
If this were work that he'd done in his garage like some others, HELL YEAH, help him diagnose the problem. IT'S NOT THOUGH.
GO BACK TO THE SHOP!
Sorry for the rant, but lets be real. Take it back to the shop, you should not be charged, at least not if they want return service or referrals.
Fact is, he paid for a service. He paid for repairs. If it left the shop not running like it did when it entered the shop. The shop needs to fix it.
If this were work that he'd done in his garage like some others, HELL YEAH, help him diagnose the problem. IT'S NOT THOUGH.
GO BACK TO THE SHOP!
Sorry for the rant, but lets be real. Take it back to the shop, you should not be charged, at least not if they want return service or referrals.
01-18-2010, 12:05 PM
#26
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Who cares what color his exhaust is? Who cares what it might be?
Fact is, he paid for a service. He paid for repairs. If it left the shop not running like it did when it entered the shop. The shop needs to fix it.
If this were work that he'd done in his garage like some others, HELL YEAH, help him diagnose the problem. IT'S NOT THOUGH.
GO BACK TO THE SHOP!
Sorry for the rant, but lets be real. Take it back to the shop, you should not be charged, at least not if they want return service or referrals.
Fact is, he paid for a service. He paid for repairs. If it left the shop not running like it did when it entered the shop. The shop needs to fix it.
If this were work that he'd done in his garage like some others, HELL YEAH, help him diagnose the problem. IT'S NOT THOUGH.
GO BACK TO THE SHOP!
Sorry for the rant, but lets be real. Take it back to the shop, you should not be charged, at least not if they want return service or referrals.
It's been said before in the thread, check if it helps with the choke to see if you are lean or rich... If you are infact running rich (fuel comsumption says you are) and you can feel a difference, then it's the carbs...
If it does nothing, it's at least not only the carbs...
But yeah, running that way I'd be very hard pressed to recommend you run it the full break in period that way...
The pipes and plugs tells us nothing right now since you need to know baseline to have any use for them... Looking at tlhe plugs the first time, you wouldn't be able to tell much from them... Same for the pipes unless they where cleaned, before so you have no old soot...
As for their warranty... Bullshit is what my comment to that is... Either they give you a "warranty" on their work... Then someone else checking to see if you are obviously off on timing shouldn't affect that one damned bit... Or they don't... Then I'd go back and tell them to prove that the timing is correct... If they wan't to do it by opening it up or whatever is their business... Not your cost...
01-18-2010, 12:52 PM
#27
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If it's burning a tank of gas in 60 miles, it's dumpng lots of unburned fuel in the engine.
Is there gas in the oil? It may be a stuck float valve.
the carbs are easy to disassemble. the jets screw out and are easily inspected and cleaned.
With a shop manual, you can probably figure out how to check the cam timing. You've spent enough time and money at the shop. Time to get some oil on your fingers and learn how the thing works - assuming you have a garage, to work on it. It's raining, you can't ride it.
You probably have a carb problem. You didn't pay to have the carbs inspected.
Like I said - there's nothing too complicated there. For the price of an hour in the shop, you could have all the tools you need, and you'll learn something.
Is there gas in the oil? It may be a stuck float valve.
the carbs are easy to disassemble. the jets screw out and are easily inspected and cleaned.
With a shop manual, you can probably figure out how to check the cam timing. You've spent enough time and money at the shop. Time to get some oil on your fingers and learn how the thing works - assuming you have a garage, to work on it. It's raining, you can't ride it.
You probably have a carb problem. You didn't pay to have the carbs inspected.
Like I said - there's nothing too complicated there. For the price of an hour in the shop, you could have all the tools you need, and you'll learn something.
01-18-2010, 01:15 PM
#28
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+1 to RCVTR.
Download a workshop manual (it is on this site), and get your buddy to carefully check settings and condition of the carbs before approaching the shop again. Also check the condition of the diaphragm on the tank fuel valve and the fuel hoses for leaks and cracks. Check the slide diaphragm for pinholes, check the choke assembly and the throttle position sensor.
Above all, don't panic and overcomplicate things, think logically. The bike is relatively simple (one of it's virtues).
Download a workshop manual (it is on this site), and get your buddy to carefully check settings and condition of the carbs before approaching the shop again. Also check the condition of the diaphragm on the tank fuel valve and the fuel hoses for leaks and cracks. Check the slide diaphragm for pinholes, check the choke assembly and the throttle position sensor.
Above all, don't panic and overcomplicate things, think logically. The bike is relatively simple (one of it's virtues).
01-18-2010, 04:56 PM
#30
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well i guess you all didn't like my suggestion of checking the plugs/pipes color, so be it. That's what I'd be looking, sorrrrrryyy. you can run it up the road and back, shut it down immediately, and get a good idea if the fuel/air is in the ballpark. Believe I did it once with my lawnmower, and it's a honda, hahahaha.
Relative to getting all bent out of shape at the mechanic/dealer/shop who did the work, that may not be an effective strategy, especially since we don't know the initial agreement between shop and customer. If they agreed to do only what they did and nothing extra for the $2100, then they met their responsibility. On the other hand, If they said they would repair anything and everything to get it running perfectly, another story. So, the question is, what was the original understanding between customer and shop?
Relative to getting all bent out of shape at the mechanic/dealer/shop who did the work, that may not be an effective strategy, especially since we don't know the initial agreement between shop and customer. If they agreed to do only what they did and nothing extra for the $2100, then they met their responsibility. On the other hand, If they said they would repair anything and everything to get it running perfectly, another story. So, the question is, what was the original understanding between customer and shop?
