Velocity stack participants
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 310
What material would that be 
The reason for alu is that it's light... Making those out of any other metal would make them very unnecessary heavy and that's bad...
Machining stuff out of plastic takes special machinery, either for casting (which is imprecise!) or for machining you'd need special toolsets...
The reason for alu is that it's light... Making those out of any other metal would make them very unnecessary heavy and that's bad...
Machining stuff out of plastic takes special machinery, either for casting (which is imprecise!) or for machining you'd need special toolsets...
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 92
From: Pittsburgh
Eric...
yes... it's a "Bling" feature that is not needed since you can't see them, but the anodizing will keep them from oxidizing.
Andy...
Plastic can be VERY cheap. I could probably make them for $3 or $4 for each set if they were injection molded. (that's why they do that from the factory) The problems is... a proper injection molding mold would cost $10k to produce... and the companies that have the large injector machines wouldn't want to do it unless I could tell them to run a thousand or more. (do you think we could sell 500 sets?) Also, then the mold cost would have to be spread back into the parts.
The biggest issue with injection molding for a part like this, is that there will be shrinkage as the plastic cools. So, the part will not be exactly as the engineer designed it. Here again... on a production bike... it's good enough... but when you are looking for real gains... it's not the way to do it.
As far as machining plastic... it's expensive to buy the raw stock, and the scrap is trash. When working with a metal, people will pay for the scrap. (helps offset the price of the part)
yes... it's a "Bling" feature that is not needed since you can't see them, but the anodizing will keep them from oxidizing.
Andy...
Plastic can be VERY cheap. I could probably make them for $3 or $4 for each set if they were injection molded. (that's why they do that from the factory) The problems is... a proper injection molding mold would cost $10k to produce... and the companies that have the large injector machines wouldn't want to do it unless I could tell them to run a thousand or more. (do you think we could sell 500 sets?) Also, then the mold cost would have to be spread back into the parts.
The biggest issue with injection molding for a part like this, is that there will be shrinkage as the plastic cools. So, the part will not be exactly as the engineer designed it. Here again... on a production bike... it's good enough... but when you are looking for real gains... it's not the way to do it.
As far as machining plastic... it's expensive to buy the raw stock, and the scrap is trash. When working with a metal, people will pay for the scrap. (helps offset the price of the part)
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
The reason the stock is plastic is that it's cheap, light and gives "ballpark" flow figures... The reason for switching is that the more advanced and specific curve on the new stacks gives a whole different order of airflow... Enough to warrant one or two sizes smaller jets...
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 92
From: Pittsburgh
Just some info...
The part will start as a 4" round 3.25" long hunk of 6061 alloy. It should weigh around 4 Lbs. The finished part should weigh around 0.37 Lbs. 91% of the starting material will go to the scrap bin.
The part will start as a 4" round 3.25" long hunk of 6061 alloy. It should weigh around 4 Lbs. The finished part should weigh around 0.37 Lbs. 91% of the starting material will go to the scrap bin.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 310
Hey, don't feel bad... It wasn't even a ribbing... The reason the stock is plastic is that it's cheap, light and gives "ballpark" flow figures...
The reason for switching is that the more advanced and specific curve on the new stacks gives a whole different order of airflow... Enough to warrant one or two sizes smaller jets...
The reason the stock is plastic is that it's cheap, light and gives "ballpark" flow figures... The reason for switching is that the more advanced and specific curve on the new stacks gives a whole different order of airflow... Enough to warrant one or two sizes smaller jets...
no worries!
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,864
From: Fort Wayne, IN
That's the big reason I redesigned it for my quotes. It's like I was taught - if you want to dance you're going to have to pay for the music.
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 179
From: Birmingham, AL
I'll do before and after Dyno runs when I make the instalation. However; I'm not going to tune or even sync the carbs on the before run. I don't have stock exhaust and can't be sure the jetting is factory so I don't know what good the before will be as an evaluation of the stacks. I'll say this...they are way cool to look at.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,864
From: Fort Wayne, IN
They do, but even in bar stock form it's often time more expensive to buy the tube rather than just machine it out. I would think that a shop would have to cost it out both ways to see what the difference would be. You can run a big drill and hog out the inside pretty fast.
Here's a link to the common round tube sizes available:
http://www.emjmetals.com/pdf/bluebook-k.pdf
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 92
From: Pittsburgh
Hi Guys,
Yes, you can get tube... but it would be very hard with the wall thickness that would be needed... and, like Jamie... it's going to cost more than the solid bar. Right now... I can buy aluminum at very competitive prices since I buy a few hundred pounds at a time... and I take full 12' bars.
As far as a deep draw... you actually want the airfoil shape at the outer edge. If you do a draw... it's going to have a flat cross section, and yes... the die is going to be expensive.
Jamie...
I've been going back and forth with the mount. I can shave a little time off the lathe if I make it a separate part... but then I add time on the mill making the mount. With my equipment, I think it's going to be a wash. How were you going to attach the mount? slip it on, and use a big split ring, or have a split mount that went into the groove?
Yes, you can get tube... but it would be very hard with the wall thickness that would be needed... and, like Jamie... it's going to cost more than the solid bar. Right now... I can buy aluminum at very competitive prices since I buy a few hundred pounds at a time... and I take full 12' bars.
As far as a deep draw... you actually want the airfoil shape at the outer edge. If you do a draw... it's going to have a flat cross section, and yes... the die is going to be expensive.
Jamie...
I've been going back and forth with the mount. I can shave a little time off the lathe if I make it a separate part... but then I add time on the mill making the mount. With my equipment, I think it's going to be a wash. How were you going to attach the mount? slip it on, and use a big split ring, or have a split mount that went into the groove?
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,864
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Jamie...
I've been going back and forth with the mount. I can shave a little time off the lathe if I make it a separate part... but then I add time on the mill making the mount. With my equipment, I think it's going to be a wash. How were you going to attach the mount? slip it on, and use a big split ring, or have a split mount that went into the groove?
I've been going back and forth with the mount. I can shave a little time off the lathe if I make it a separate part... but then I add time on the mill making the mount. With my equipment, I think it's going to be a wash. How were you going to attach the mount? slip it on, and use a big split ring, or have a split mount that went into the groove?
Yes, I was going to use a large retaining ring. The retaining plate would slide over the stack first then the ring. This would leave the plate loose at first, but once you tightened it down everything would be solid. If you need more details than this let me know and I'll see if I can dig it up.
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 92
From: Pittsburgh
Yes, I was going to use a large retaining ring. The retaining plate would slide over the stack first then the ring. This would leave the plate loose at first, but once you tightened it down everything would be solid. If you need more details than this let me know and I'll see if I can dig it up.
I'll keep you guys posted.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,216
From: Westerly, RI
If you read the last few pages, he intends to sell them as close to the previous price as he can. $120 USD.
Senior Member
Back Marker
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 125
From: ITALY
I'm also interested, so i've download the CAD project and I'm waiting that the CNC factory make a price quote...
If anyone was interested, I can order "X" number of velocity stack and ship to you... but remember I am in Italy!
so, if anyone was interested, I think that open a new 3ad was better!
If anyone was interested, I can order "X" number of velocity stack and ship to you... but remember I am in Italy!
so, if anyone was interested, I think that open a new 3ad was better!
Last edited by Rama; Dec 27, 2009 at 10:15 AM.
COBB Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 292
From: NorthEast Connecticut
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 92
From: Pittsburgh
That's OK. I had to put both of them on the back burner.
For my own mental healt... I closed shop the last 2 weeks of the year (X-mas to new year) and I was swamped trying to get things back together in the shop.
With that said... sorry for the long delay guys. If I'm ever gone, and you need answers... please PM, email, or call me. (goggle a&l motorsports for the Ph#)
So with a quick read, it looks like someone else picked up the ball on this. Did he get you guys a price? I'll do a search in a little while to see what I can find... but if you guys still want them... I will order materials shortly, and get a real price for you.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,216
From: Westerly, RI
Tony,
I don't see anyone else with the ball right now. We were all waiting for you, or, at least i was.
No bother on the wait, for me, it's expected when looking at getting something custom done.
I know I still want a set. Wouldn't have the funds until mid-Feb though. Other Superhawk projects have tapped the modification budget.
Were the holidays good? Get some needed rest?
Erik
I don't see anyone else with the ball right now. We were all waiting for you, or, at least i was.
No bother on the wait, for me, it's expected when looking at getting something custom done.
I know I still want a set. Wouldn't have the funds until mid-Feb though. Other Superhawk projects have tapped the modification budget.
Were the holidays good? Get some needed rest?
Erik
Member
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 92
From: Pittsburgh
Yes and no. It was nice the take the time off, but it was hard to find motivation to go back.
