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which pad? HH or Extreme Pro plus spring removal

Old 03-14-2011, 02:48 AM
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which pad? HH or Extreme Pro plus spring removal

Further to my previous brake pads thread and based on reccommendations from both this site and others plus the lack of pad options for the std caliper, I'd pretty much decided to fit EBC HH pads.
However while searching for the best price for HHs I came across EBC Extreme Pro compound : link
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/motorcycle_brake/sintered_brake_pads/extreme_pro_brake_pads/extreme-pro.shtml

EBCs info suggests they are far superior to comparable pads, I know you should take such claims with a pinch of salt but I'd like to fit the best pads available so does anyone have any first hand experience with these? are they worth the extra cost over and above HHs or is pound for pound the HH compound the best option?

Also how do I remove the rear spring for the damper?

Last edited by budd; 03-14-2011 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by budd View Post
Further to my previous brake pads thread and based on reccommendations from both this site and others plus the lack of pad options for the std caliper, I'd pretty much decided to fit EBC HH pads.
However while searching for the best price for HHs I came across EBC Extreme Pro compound : link
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/motorcycle_brake/sintered_brake_pads/extreme_pro_brake_pads/extreme-pro.shtml

EBCs info suggests they are far superior to comparable pads, I know you should take such claims with a pinch of salt but I'd like to fit the best pads available so does anyone have any first hand experience with these? are they worth the extra cost over and above HHs or is pound for pound the HH compound the best option?

Also how do I remove the rear spring for the damper?
I'm not going to "answer" the first one... It's subjective... But when you go swapping to either of these brake pads, keep in mind weather you intend to do track or road riding... Both pads have less initial bite and stopping power compared to OEM on cold pads/rotors... So on a rainchilled curvy road out in the boonies, you are more likely to hit whatever farm appliance that pops out of the bushes and make you slam on the brakes for the first time that ride... Just saying...

On the second question, the answer is pretty simple... Unless you have the tools and knowledge to dismantle and re-assemble the complete shock-body including charging the nitrogen bladder, you don't remove the spring... It's that simple...

The stock shock is by the manufacturer designated as "non-rebuildable", meaning it's not really supposed to be opened...

But someone that knows what they are doing, can do it with the right tools...
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
I'm not going to "answer" the first one... It's subjective... But when you go swapping to either of these brake pads, keep in mind weather you intend to do track or road riding... Both pads have less initial bite and stopping power compared to OEM on cold pads/rotors... So on a rainchilled curvy road out in the boonies, you are more likely to hit whatever farm appliance that pops out of the bushes and make you slam on the brakes for the first time that ride... Just saying...

On the second question, the answer is pretty simple... Unless you have the tools and knowledge to dismantle and re-assemble the complete shock-body including charging the nitrogen bladder, you don't remove the spring... It's that simple...

The stock shock is by the manufacturer designated as "non-rebuildable", meaning it's not really supposed to be opened...

But someone that knows what they are doing, can do it with the right tools...
thanks for the response and yeh I realise braking is subjective like a lot of things, tyres, suspension in fact almost anything that involves Ďfeebackí to the rider.
But when I make a choice I like to have as much information as possible and I find if you ask enough people their preferences and experiences with a type of product ie brake pads, a pattern forms and that the overall consensus is usually reasonably accurate, I know itís anecdotal but whatís the alternative? buy and test each product? this is obviously the most reliable solution but it's also impractical not to mention very expensive, asking questions and taking onboard opinions and experience will hopefully get me to where I went to be quicker and cheaper.

Re the rear spring, I only want to remove spring, to swop it for a slightly lighter rate progressive type to match the fronts before I decide whether to take the plunge and buy a replacement damper and wandered what the procedure was for removing it, Iíve no intention of stripping the damper, as soon as I've decided what to replace it with (probably a Nitron unit) the OE damper binned.
,
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by budd View Post
Re the rear spring, I only want to remove spring, to swop it for a slightly lighter rate progressive type to match the fronts before I decide whether to take the plunge and buy a replacement damper and wandered what the procedure was for removing it, I’ve no intention of stripping the damper, as soon as I've decided what to replace it with (probably a Nitron unit) the OE damper binned.
,
Well, I though my response was clear... Perhaps not enough... Let me re-state... You can't remove the spring without dismantling the whole shock... Ie, you cannot swap the spring without essentially doing a rebuild... The shock design doesn't allow for it...

A small suggestion... Talk to Jamie Daugherty on this forum... He can help you with a complete rebuild and re-valve of the OEM shock to make it actually usefull as anything more than a place holder, or rebuild an F4i shock to replace it, just as good as an expensive aftermarket shock, at a much, much lower price... Trust me, it's well worth it...

Last edited by Tweety; 03-14-2011 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:03 AM
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Also the stock rear spring has a "beehive" shape. So in order to fit a replacement spring you need to fabricate a upper mount to hold a straight spring.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:58 AM
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interesting, the kit I have on order from Hyperpro consists of 2x progressive front fork springs, a matching rear spring and suitable wt fork oil, their mantra is along the lines of tune your suspension while retaining the OE damper no need to invest in a expensive aftermarket damper etc, this suggest to me that it should fit.
But I take your point about the OE spring design / shape it does taper in toward the top maybe it comes with a spring seat adapter of some sort??? but I'll get on the phone to my supplier try to deal with any fitting problems before they ship the parts. cheers
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:30 PM
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You really, really should do some research on the forum...

First question for you, if the front springs are progressive or straight rate doesn't matter... But if you change the springs and leave the stock valving in the springs, the two things doesn't really match very well, do they? Ie less damping, more spring... Sounds like a good reciept for creating bad handling don't you think?

Second question, if you change the oil weight along with the springs and keep the valving stock, what happens to the characteristics? Heavier oil can't travel though the small opening in the valving at a fast pace, if you overwhealm that the oil stops flowing and the fork becomes rigid... That's a bad idea... Lighter oil means the valving is creating less resistance, and that means even less damping in combination with heavier springs... That's also something I'd classify as a bad idea...

Now, the same questions apply to the rear shock... The spring and internal valving is at least in theory in sync now... The VTR is according to most people that know about suspension light on the spring already, so may I ask what you weight, and the target weight for this would then be?

So, you change the spring for a lighter spring... The question is, if the spring is already on the light side compared to valving, and the shock is performing horridly, wouldn't logic say that the valving is a bit dodgy? In your scenario you leave that unchanged... So now you have an even bigger miss-match in spring vs valving characteristics determining the performance of the shock...

Now, I really don't see how this qualifies as tuning your suspension...

Even if we ignore the fact that to get the new spring on, you have to completely take the shock apart, something that needs a hydraulic press and some special tools... Then put it back together and charge the nitrogen bladder, something that takes even more specialised tools...

So unless you have those and a fair deal of knowledge, you leave it too a suspension shop... And pay them good money to do a half-arsed work of it, using mis-matched parts... To get an even crappier performance out of it? Seems like a sure winner too me...

Or you do some research, cancel that order and spend less money on an F4i shock to replace the OEM one, and at the same time have Jamie either supply you with the parts to do the valving along the front springs, or have him do it for you... And the end result will be less money spent, and better performance as a small side bonus...

Or you could ignore me, and all the other people having posted their knowledge here in older threads, buy that "kit" with about half the parts you need, and pay a good shop to make up the missing pieces... It shouldn't cost you more than twice what Jamie will charge you, and it should work fine once you have all the parts... Becuase, no... The springs and the oil isn't all you need...
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:34 PM
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Changing a Hawk spring

Yes, the Hyperpro spring may be replaced on a stock Hawk.
A proper spring compression tool is required. I have done one at an auto shop with a very good strut rig. Decent bike shops usually have the gear, or use someone who does.
Hyperpro makes the spring just as the stock one on the end so the part will work.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:37 PM
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No bladder mess

The gas system is not breached or diminished by replacing the spring, so no need for service.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
You really, really should do some research on the forum...

First question for you, if the front springs are progressive or straight rate doesn't matter... But if you change the springs and leave the stock valving in the springs, the two things doesn't really match very well, do they? Ie less damping, more spring... Sounds like a good reciept for creating bad handling don't you think?

Second question, if you change the oil weight along with the springs and keep the valving stock, what happens to the characteristics? Heavier oil can't travel though the small opening in the valving at a fast pace, if you overwhealm that the oil stops flowing and the fork becomes rigid... That's a bad idea... Lighter oil means the valving is creating less resistance, and that means even less damping in combination with heavier springs... That's also something I'd classify as a bad idea...

Now, the same questions apply to the rear shock... The spring and internal valving is at least in theory in sync now... The VTR is according to most people that know about suspension light on the spring already, so may I ask what you weight, and the target weight for this would then be?

So, you change the spring for a lighter spring... The question is, if the spring is already on the light side compared to valving, and the shock is performing horridly, wouldn't logic say that the valving is a bit dodgy? In your scenario you leave that unchanged... So now you have an even bigger miss-match in spring vs valving characteristics determining the performance of the shock...

Now, I really don't see how this qualifies as tuning your suspension...


Or you could ignore me, and all the other people having posted their knowledge here in older threads, buy that "kit" with about half the parts you need, and pay a good shop to make up the missing pieces... It shouldn't cost you more than twice what Jamie will charge you, and it should work fine once you have all the parts... Becuase, no... The springs and the oil isn't all you need...
all interesting thoughts about the principles of suspension tuning and I respect them I really do i'm sure in your mind it all ,makes sense but I've being involved in this longer than most, I bought a VTR 1000F (Firestorm ) brand new in í98 and the fact is it was a awful handling bike out of the box, so I set about trying improve it.

Firstly the front forks on the VTR1000 are lightly sprung for maximum comfort and overdamped to control wheel movement. In order to achieve the correct level of rebound damping on my Firestorm the adjustment needed to be set to minimum. Also the compression damping can go solid under hard braking as I very nearly found to my cost, at Croft race track with the brakes full on the forks dived and locked solid, even on a relatively smooth race track front tyre bounced along as the wheel momentarily locked-up every time it skipped off small ripples..... not good!!
I think this all to do with the weak OE spring and compression damping that just goes violent. Push down on the forks stationary and it doesn't feel that bad. But on the brakes the cartridge compresses and the valve inside appears to completely shut off to make the forks go absolutely solid.
Now bear in mind that at the time the VTR was a relatively new bike (my bike was less than a year old) so thoughts of forks swops etc simply didnít come into it, so I decided to experiment with oil weights and air gaps.
Firstly Change Oil for 5wt with standard air gap, wind in preload to set static sag to 30 mm (the lowest I could achieve) set front damping so that as you bounce on the forks with the brake on they rebound once and then settle. (Easier to demonstrate than explain) Now the fork action under heavy braking was progressive without any sign of lockup but I could get the forks to bottom out very very easily.

Next Reduce air gap in 10mm increments, progressively reducing the air gap bought improvements to fork travel under braking but still the chance of bottoming the forks until the air gap was 120mm then the fork action was harsh at the end of its travel although the forks didn't bottom out.
Next Change Oil for 7.5wt with standard air gap, now the fork action under heavy braking was harsher and I could just get the forks to bottom out. Reduce air gap in 10 mm increments. Progressively reducing the air gap didn't improve feel under braking when the air gap was 120mm then the forks would again go solid under hard braking

Next Install WP progressive fork springs, change Oil for 5wt with standard air gap, wind in preload and set static sag to 25mm.
The fork action under heavy braking was much more progressive without any sign of lockup and I couldn't get the forks to bottom out my zip tie on the fork leg showed that I was pretty close though, continue to reduce air gap in 10mm increments.
Progressively reducing the air gap brought slight improvements to fork travel under braking, I stopped adding oil at 130mm as I knew that any less gap caused a problem I was now using about 85% to 90% of travel.

Finally I ended up with WP fork springs (these are progressively wound springs slightly longer than standard),5wt oil, 130mm air gap,.
A canít remember and my notes donít show the exact set up I ended up with (ironic now Iím trying to recreate it) but it was a massive improvement over std, for very little cost and as I said before at the time there were very limited aftermarket options so to me the improvement from the set of springs and oil were a great result.

To recap std the fork springs are to soft, and the compression damping to harsh fitting progressive springs and tweaking the oil wt and levels brings massive improvements over the frankly dangerous stock setup.
Unfortunately thatís as far as I got with the first bike before it ,,,, well before I crashed it, ironically I lost the front at about 50 and while I was unscathed the bike faired less well and was beyond repair.

So thatís where Iím now with the Ďnewí one, well a 20K í97 example which is stock so Iíve got all the same issues I had 14yrs ago.

The first time I didnít get around to addressing the rear end issues choosing to try to remedy a more obvious front end problems, and in a way Iím doing the same again by opting for just a rear spring, but the std spring is way to stiff and itís impossible to get the correct static sag, Iím 6í0 200 pounds and if I have the per load set more than the second notch itís bouncing me in the air, my thought is if I fit a slightly softer spring (matched to my weight and to the fronts) the overall balance of the bike will be substantially improved allowing me to tweak is a bit with ride heights and basic damper settings.This is where Iím at currently and I think all in all my course of action makes sense, dealing with the problems presented and spring rates are one of the VTRs problems.

Now just let me have a look at some of your comments (well meaning they may be) and I do appreciate your time, but firstly yes it does matter if the springs are progressive as opposed to linear (straight???) a progressive spring allows it to react quicker and move to itís stiffer rating in a progressive manner (hence itís name) couple this with a suitable wt fork oil and the low speed damping should improve and as the loads increase the heavier second winding of the prevents the forks bottoming out.

You state that ĎThe VTR is according to most people that know about suspension light on the spring alreadyí this is plainly ridiculous if referring to the rear spring, maybe the Ďmost peopleí you were referring to aren't as well informed has you thought or were reffering the fork springs (which are under sprung)and you got confused, the fact is the std rear spring in over sprung, itís almost impossible to get any static sag in the rear with the OE rear spring, I think the absolute opposite of what you said would be true, I think maybe the rear shock is over sprung and under damped , in this case fitting a lighter progressive spring would help the limited damping and make any range of adjustment useful.

The fact is that from the factory the VTR suspension left a lot to be desired, it was imbalanced with adjustments that were pretty much useless, the only way to redress the balance is to look at whatís wrong, which basically is: front to soft and rear to hard, now correct me if Iím wrong how can addressing these obvious no fundamental faults be what youíd call a Ďbad ideaí ???getting the front and rear spring rates in the same ball park as got to be good no???
I respect your views but you could try to be little less pious in making them.

Last edited by budd; 03-14-2011 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by happytrack44 View Post
Yes, the Hyperpro spring may be replaced on a stock Hawk.
A proper spring compression tool is required. I have done one at an auto shop with a very good strut rig. Decent bike shops usually have the gear, or use someone who does.
Hyperpro makes the spring just as the stock one on the end so the part will work.

Thanks for that
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Old 03-14-2011, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by budd View Post
I respect your views but you could try to be little less pious in making them.
Agreed... You go build your bike the way you like it... I'll refrain from helping you...

Glad you think my thinking is interesting... Yes, the front is horribly undersprung, the rear is infact also that for a 200 pound rider... It's the valving thats way off in the rear, so a new spring doesn't help as much as you think, but yeah it will make the bike feel a bit more balanced as both ends are soft...

FYI I know very well the difference between progressive or not progressive springs (you call them linear, I'll call them "straight" as in straight rate, unless that confuses you?), you completely missed the point of that sentence (I'm thinking on purpose?) So a single last question...

You are 200 pounds... The front is originally sprung for around 100 pounds... And yes, it's overdamped in comparasion to that, but you are honestly convinced that it's 100% overdamped? Because that is what you are saying, add on another 100% in terms of spring, and it balances out?

You say my thinking is interesting? Well, that makes two of us then... Because it's simply not that much overdamped...

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Old 03-14-2011, 09:39 PM
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Well I have to agree with Tweety on this one.
I also bought my SH in '97 and still have it.

First of all I stay away from progressive springs, as how do you set the damping? If you set it for the soft part of the spring, then you have too little when you get to the hard part. If you set it for the hard part, then you have too much in the soft part but that is a different discussion.

What you are doing is a band aid fix for the suspension. Sure it "might" work better than stock but why not doing it right and set the valving for the springs you are running? With your method, you are just setting yourself up to wad another bike.

Oh and for suspension swaps, they have been around from day one. The 900rr front end was the set up in '97 -'98.

So while it does sound like you have taken the time to make your set up work pretty good, you would be much better off going the few steps farther to make it right.
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Old 03-15-2011, 04:15 AM
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no matter how you look at it the std bike is under sprung at the front and over sprung at the back with inconsistent damping, simply fitting better matched springs as got to improve balance, tweaking the fork oil and air gaps creates a much more usable machine for minimal cost and an afternoon in the garage. And while I freely admit itís not the most complete solution it does work, and by Ďworkí I mean it makes the dire std suspension tolerable and at this moment in time thatís all I need.
The problem with the rear spring is it doesnít give you any worth while set up options, fitting a lighter rear spring should allow the static sag to be set correctly (which is a start) and I wouldnít call it Ďsoftí Iíd call it compliant and therefore better able to deal with the potholed things that masquerade as roads over here.

Hawk
I agree progressive springs are a compromise, but at present Iíve no intention of changing the valving on the std forks so this compromise actually works quite well, admittedly masking rather than curing the problems, and believe me there is no Ďmightí about it does absolutely improve things, anything that stops the front from simultaneously bottoming out due to lack of spring wt and locking solid due to dodgy damping as got to be seen as an improvement.
And of course front end swops have been around since day one, but in reality how many owners strip out the forks on a brand new bike? They may decide on this course of action eventually but itís usually after tinkering with the existing forks as failed to yield the desired results and the only option remaining is to fit some forks with a better fundamental design.
At what point did you fit 900rr forks to yours? Iíd be surprised if the bike was less than a year old.

I doubt Iíd go down that route myself as I canít justify the financial out lay, when you look at whatís required (used CBR 900 forks, these forks need to be sprung and valved to suit the VTR, a set of yokes (triple trees to you), brakes, wheel, bars etc) you have to question if itís worth it and thatís ignoring the rear damper which at the very least would need a custom rebuild, at the end of the day all I bought this VTR because it was cheap, in good condition for itís age and I liked the easy going nature of my old one, I donít would want to end up spending a load of cash only spoil this easy to live with character trying to create a razor sharp hypersports bike, I have a pal with a Aprilla RSV-R and itís in a different league to the Honda, much faster, has Ohlins suspension that simply works out of the box, if I decide I want a proper sports twin Iíll buy one of those rather than try to make the VTR something itís not.

But in the mean time Iíll seek to improve the Hondaís pleasant demeanour with minor mods that build on itís character rather than eroding it.

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Old 03-15-2011, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by budd View Post
Tweety
no matter how you look at it the std bike is under sprung at the front and over sprung at the back with inconsistent damping, simply fitting better matched springs as got to improve balance, tweaking the fork oil and air gaps creates a much more usable machine for minimal cost and an afternoon in the garage. And while I freely admit itís not the most complete solution it does work, and by Ďworkí I mean it makes the dire std suspension tolerable and at this moment in time thatís all I need.
The problem with the rear spring is it doesnít give you any worth while set up options, fitting a lighter rear spring should allow the static sag to be set correctly (which is a start) and I wouldnít call it Ďsoftí Iíd call it compliant and therefore better able to deal with the potholed things that masquerade as roads over here.


I will fully agree that the damping is wildly inconsistant with the springs, front and back... I also "agree" that by fitting heavier progressive spring in the front and a lighter progressive spring in the rear you are moving the bike as a whole towards being more balanced... I never disputed that for one moment...

But for a 200 pound rider, you have now moved the bike from being dangerously undersprung and underdamped in the front (compared to your weight, but still overdamped compared to the springs) and relatively decently sprung and horribly overdamped in the rear, to being uniformly undersprung both front and rear... Ie soft... Not compliant, since that implies you have both spring action, and damping action in sync to deal with the bumps... And at that point your front is horribly and possibly dangerously underdamped (something I doubt you could test fully with the rear left unchanged), and the rear is still overdamped, now even more so compared to the spring, so still somewhat erratic but less jumping around and snatching...

I fully agree that the bike in this condition is easier to deal with than stock, since it behaves less erraticly than with the front and rear being opposite ends of the spectrum... But I still think it's very, very far from optimal...

And I think once you have ridden that bike a short while, you will find it very easy to overwhealm that front suspension since the rear isn't hopping around on it's own anymore... I tried the exact thing you did, with progressive springs and lighter fluids in the forks... Then I tried linear springswith valves for my weight, and it was a night and day difference...

Now I'm running the bike with CBR 1000RR forks with springs and valves fitted for my weight and honestly the difference in damping isn't much... The main difference to the stock fork is the fact that it doesn't flex like that did... (Plus the brakes and adjustability, which is a definite gain...)

Now, if you do the front like you imagine it, and change the rear to a F4i shock with a spring and valving suited to your weight, the cost will most likely be roughly the same as taking the stock shock with your new spring, rebuilding it with fresh fluids and gas (it's from 98 fer christsake!) and it will give you 90% of what an ÷hlins rear shock will give you, since it has the setup options... And it will be stupendeously cheap compared to the ÷hlins or the likes...

That's why I suggest skipping the step of "patching" the stock shock and then potentiallymaking an expensive upgrade as you mentioned... Make a cheap upgrade in the first place that blows the patch-job away and is nearly as good as the expensive one... Less money spent, more value gained... Go read up on it on the forum... I'm not the only one happy with mine...

BTW... The reason I don't like going to very much lighter fork fluid is that then the valves are more or less free-flowing with a 200 pound rider, making the spring the deciding factor... It won't "lock-up" but I highly doubt the valving make any difference what-so-ever to the characteritics, besides in your mind... And since the adjustability of the VTR forks is limited, it makes it impossible to adjust away...
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Old 03-15-2011, 06:39 AM
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I've had good luck with HyperPro progressive springs front and rear with RT gold valves in front. Not as good as a swap, but a vast improvement.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:20 AM
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HH pads work very well, I love mine.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:22 AM
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First let me clarify something, my weight, I know I said 200lbs in a previous post but truth be told itís so long since I weighed myself I had absolutely no idea how much I actually weighed, I vaguely remember been around 85kg some years ago and thatís where the 200lbs figure came from although 85kg is still short of 200lbs at 187.
So because I was going to be ordering some springs I thought it wise to find out exactly how much I weighed, and I got a pleasant surprise weighing at a svelte 73kg or around 160lbs and Iíd not realised Iíd been on a diet!!!
So now thatís corrected, I think it will ease spring situation somewhat, and I agree with what your saying and I fully understand that the correct way to approach it is to take it as an whole, either fix the forks with linear springs and damping match to my new lightweight frame (ie me) or replace with RR items and at the same time sort the rear damper with a rebuilt F4i item but at th moment the bike isnít a priority (Iím currently building an Impreza race car so that is rapidly absorbing all my time and money) so I can only really allow myself the absolute minimum in terms of spending on the bike, so Iíve allowed myself £250 to sort it out as best I can.
This is to include new brake pads, oil and filter and getting the Diablo Corsas fitted and balanced, I already had the tyres, so the cost breakdown is roughly as follows Oil + filter £35, 2x sets of EBC HH pads £45, £20 for mounting and balancing the tyres, the leaves approx £150 for the springs which isnít quite enough but Iím sure I find the little extra.(Iíd also quite like a 43T rear sprocket but that may have to wait till next month)
Once the Impreza is finished (well as much as these things ever are finished) I should be able to look again at the Honda but chances are if itís something like Iíll end up running it the way it is all summer and parking it in the shed all winter only to once again have a mad dash to get it ready of Apr (exactly the same as this year) I really need to be more organised.

Quick question re the rear shock, who does the conversion and where are they based, this been a largely US based site I assumed it would involve shipping the damper to and from the States.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:26 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
I've had good luck with HyperPro progressive springs front and rear with RT gold valves in front. Not as good as a swap, but a vast improvement.
I'm not going for the valves but I'm hoping just the springs and some tweaking of the front oil wt and levels will bring a worthwhile improvemnt, it's good to know you've had success with it, I must be on the right track.

Originally Posted by cliby View Post
HH pads work very well, I love mine.
Yeh I'm pretty much sold on the HH pads now
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:49 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by budd View Post
But in the mean time Iíll seek to improve the Hondaís pleasant demeanour with minor mods that build on itís character rather than eroding it.

Well I guess I have really buggered mine up then.......

I ran modified stock stuff for a while but now have a Ohlins valved RC 51 front end with a Ohlins shock in the back.

So run whatever you like and believe it or not we are actually trying to look out for you as poorly set up suspension can get you into a position to wad another bike.

Also make sure you run a fork brace with the stock front end as it does make a big difference.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:05 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by budd View Post
First let me clarify something, my weight, I know I said 200lbs in a previous post but truth be told itís so long since I weighed myself I had absolutely no idea how much I actually weighed, I vaguely remember been around 85kg some years ago and thatís where the 200lbs figure came from although 85kg is still short of 200lbs at 187.
So because I was going to be ordering some springs I thought it wise to find out exactly how much I weighed, and I got a pleasant surprise weighing at a svelte 73kg or around 160lbs and Iíd not realised Iíd been on a diet!!!
So now thatís corrected, I think it will ease spring situation somewhat, and I agree with what your saying and I fully understand that the correct way to approach it is to take it as an whole, either fix the forks with linear springs and damping match to my new lightweight frame (ie me) or replace with RR items and at the same time sort the rear damper with a rebuilt F4i item but at th moment the bike isnít a priority (Iím currently building an Impreza race car so that is rapidly absorbing all my time and money) so I can only really allow myself the absolute minimum in terms of spending on the bike, so Iíve allowed myself £250 to sort it out as best I can.
This is to include new brake pads, oil and filter and getting the Diablo Corsas fitted and balanced, I already had the tyres, so the cost breakdown is roughly as follows Oil + filter £35, 2x sets of EBC HH pads £45, £20 for mounting and balancing the tyres, the leaves approx £150 for the springs which isnít quite enough but Iím sure I find the little extra.(Iíd also quite like a 43T rear sprocket but that may have to wait till next month)
Once the Impreza is finished (well as much as these things ever are finished) I should be able to look again at the Honda but chances are if itís something like Iíll end up running it the way it is all summer and parking it in the shed all winter only to once again have a mad dash to get it ready of Apr (exactly the same as this year) I really need to be more organised.

Quick question re the rear shock, who does the conversion and where are they based, this been a largely US based site I assumed it would involve shipping the damper to and from the States.
Well, your new and improved weight does change things a little, but not entirely... Congratz BTW...

At 73 Kg or 160 pounds still puts you in the category way above what the stock forks are capable of handling without help... But yeah, it changes the feasibility of keeping the stock valving a bit... I'd say horribly or dangerously mismatched just barely changes to really mis-matched, but probably OK for a "Budget Type" fix... I still think 5 wt is to thin... If you could make it work with 7.5 wt instead you might have decent damping left, and no lock-ups... Seems a worth while experiment at least with better rear grip...

I'm myself at an all-time low for the last ten years at almost dead even 200 pounds, on a 6'4" frame... And I quite easily overpowered the progressive ÷hlins springs and stock valving... But yeah, I was riding pretty aggressively...

Yeah, the F4i conversion takes some finesse, but it's not that hard... Jamie Daugherty is the man to talk too... He helped me out (I'm in Sweden) by letting me buy it on eBay, have it shipped directly too him in the US from the seller and then he sent it too me once rebuilt... Saves on shipping, a lot...

I can't tell you his current price, but for me the $20 something shock plus parts and work turned out ridiculously cheap, and even with the stupid fee's and shipping, it was less than a 1/4 of the price a new ÷hlins cost at the time... Not free, but most definetly bargain basement price tag with top notch performance... And that's hard to beat...
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Old 03-15-2011, 02:44 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Well, your new and improved weight does change things a little, but not entirely... Congratz BTW...

At 73 Kg or 160 pounds still puts you in the category way above what the stock forks are capable of handling without help... But yeah, it changes the feasibility of keeping the stock valving a bit... I'd say horribly or dangerously mismatched just barely changes to really mis-matched, but probably OK for a "Budget Type" fix... I still think 5 wt is to thin... If you could make it work with 7.5 wt instead you might have decent damping left, and no lock-ups... Seems a worth while experiment at least with better rear grip...

I'm myself at an all-time low for the last ten years at almost dead even 200 pounds, on a 6'4" frame... And I quite easily overpowered the progressive ÷hlins springs and stock valving... But yeah, I was riding pretty aggressively...

Yeah, the F4i conversion takes some finesse, but it's not that hard... Jamie Daugherty is the man to talk too... He helped me out (I'm in Sweden) by letting me buy it on eBay, have it shipped directly too him in the US from the seller and then he sent it too me once rebuilt... Saves on shipping, a lot...

I can't tell you his current price, but for me the $20 something shock plus parts and work turned out ridiculously cheap, and even with the stupid fee's and shipping, it was less than a 1/4 of the price a new ÷hlins cost at the time... Not free, but most definetly bargain basement price tag with top notch performance... And that's hard to beat...
it's a very cheap fix I'm after, I've allocated as much I can to it for the moment, which I suppose is the problem really Iíve failed to heed the advice I often give in relation to cars, these type of things need to be thought out, designed, parts located and acquired then everything fitted at the same, with hindsight I shouldíve done the research and planning back in Oct when I took the bike off the road for the winter and ended up with a bespoke solution on a budget.
Are well hindsight is a wonderful thing, the fact is I didnít do that so Iím back to the progressive springs, re the fork oil I might be mistaken when I said I ended up with 5wt in with the WP springs it was a long time ago and my records are little more than bits of paper with notes scribbled on them, so it could well of been 7.5wt, either way the Hyperpro kit comes with the oil supplied so I guess Iíll just use that, see how it goes, also Iíve solved the potential spring fitting issue, the suspension company who are supplying the kit are going to fit it for free so it saves me the trouble of messing about with it.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Well I guess I have really buggered mine up then.......
LOL yeh it does , but seriously it sounds like a labour of love, and sometimes to get exactly what you want you have to create it yourself, good luck to you and keep up the good work
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:44 PM
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Fellow Brit?

Hey Budd

Not sure if your a Brit? But seeing as you mentioned Croft. I'm an Ex-pat living here in the good ole USA. Few years back I did the same front end fix to my 05 Superhawk, just springs and fork oil. Here's a link to the old thread. Tweety helped me out on this one also.

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=13175

I've raced, done a little bit of testing for a magazine. Rode lots of sportbikes, but definitely not a suspension guy. My 05 Superhawk with a stock rear shock and just springs and oil, could holds its own at the track. Yes a rear shock would have been nice, but honestly it was not that bad. This was on a smooth fast track (Willow Springs). My 2 cents worth, would be to just fit some 85 or 90 springs and change out that old oil. I think I actualy ended up with a 130 oil gap in the end? I to never wrote anything down.

Best of luck with the spannering!
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Old 03-15-2011, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hey Budd

Not sure if your a Brit? But seeing as you mentioned Croft. I'm an Ex-pat living here in the good ole USA. Few years back I did the same front end fix to my 05 Superhawk, just springs and fork oil. Here's a link to the old thread. Tweety helped me out on this one also.

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ad.php?t=13175

I've raced, done a little bit of testing for a magazine. Rode lots of sportbikes, but definitely not a suspension guy. My 05 Superhawk with a stock rear shock and just springs and oil, could holds its own at the track. Yes a rear shock would have been nice, but honestly it was not that bad. This was on a smooth fast track (Willow Springs). My 2 cents worth, would be to just fit some 85 or 90 springs and change out that old oil. I think I actualy ended up with a 130 oil gap in the end? I to never wrote anything down.

Best of luck with the spannering!
Hi Thanks for the link I'll read up on it, and yeh I'm a Brit living in Yorkshire so I used to get to Croft for trackdays on my old VTR, which ended up with a very similar set up to the one you discribe even the 130mm air gap, and I found exactly the same as you that it improved the bike alot, this time I'm doing to add a rear spring as well see if this improves it a little more. It would be nice to be able to do a fork swap and replace the rear shock but I simply can't afford it at the moment and even if I could I'd would have to consider using the money it would cost to fully upgrade the suspension to swap the VTR for a newer more able sportsbike.

How long you been Stateside ? my brother moved over to Boston 5 yrs ago and as never looked back, in fact he hasn't even been back to the UK on holiday!!!!
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Old 03-25-2011, 07:19 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Well, I though my response was clear... Perhaps not enough... Let me re-state... You can't remove the spring without dismantling the whole shock... Ie, you cannot swap the spring without essentially doing a rebuild... The shock design doesn't allow for it...
re removing rear spring, the above statement is simply not true, removing the spring is relatively simply and doesn't require any dismantling of the actual damper, I changed my spring in about 5 mins no issues.
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