List of Bolt-On Front Brake Mods
Just hangin' out
Back Marker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 136
From: Delaware, Ohio USA
FWIW I got an article sent to me by someone when I was doing some research on 6 piston Tokicos and 4 piston Nissin/Tokico/Sumitomo (Yamaha) calipers. By the way, a number of the ZRX riders dumped the six pistons in favor of four for better and more consistant stopping. Seems the 6 pistons can get a bit temperamental and aren't that great.
Another VTR forum - Firestorm forum has a great write up with a table for caliper/master cylinder size and leverage.
From everything I've learned, I'm going 4 piston and have a full CBR900 brake set up I'm trying to adapt to the 550. I also have a set of six piston calipers (actually two, but one is not mine) to work on adapting them to an Eliminator.
Another VTR forum - Firestorm forum has a great write up with a table for caliper/master cylinder size and leverage.
From everything I've learned, I'm going 4 piston and have a full CBR900 brake set up I'm trying to adapt to the 550. I also have a set of six piston calipers (actually two, but one is not mine) to work on adapting them to an Eliminator.
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
FWIW I got an article sent to me by someone when I was doing some research on 6 piston Tokicos and 4 piston Nissin/Tokico/Sumitomo (Yamaha) calipers. By the way, a number of the ZRX riders dumped the six pistons in favor of four for better and more consistant stopping. Seems the 6 pistons can get a bit temperamental and aren't that great.
Another VTR forum - Firestorm forum has a great write up with a table for caliper/master cylinder size and leverage.
From everything I've learned, I'm going 4 piston and have a full CBR900 brake set up I'm trying to adapt to the 550. I also have a set of six piston calipers (actually two, but one is not mine) to work on adapting them to an Eliminator.
Another VTR forum - Firestorm forum has a great write up with a table for caliper/master cylinder size and leverage.
From everything I've learned, I'm going 4 piston and have a full CBR900 brake set up I'm trying to adapt to the 550. I also have a set of six piston calipers (actually two, but one is not mine) to work on adapting them to an Eliminator.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 433
From: Los Angeles & Winston Salem
M/C ?
Hi Guys, quick question regrading the stock superhawk M/C. I like my brakes right now. Stock M/C and calipers with Galfer lines and EBC HH pads. All good, only issue I have is with the stock M/C. Is there any other stock Honda M/C that would work better that the stock Superhawk one? Thinking that maybe there are other stock Honda M/C that may offer better braking power or feel? Thanks all Steve
Senior Member
SuperSport
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 916
From: San Diego
Hi Guys, quick question regrading the stock superhawk M/C. I like my brakes right now. Stock M/C and calipers with Galfer lines and EBC HH pads. All good, only issue I have is with the stock M/C. Is there any other stock Honda M/C that would work better that the stock Superhawk one? Thinking that maybe there are other stock Honda M/C that may offer better braking power or feel? Thanks all Steve
RUNLEVELZERO #99
SuperBike
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,219
From: Skokie
I first tried a SP1 MC with the stock calipers & EBC HH pads, then the same SP1 MC with F4i calipers & EBC HH pads and now finally settled on a SP2 MC with the F4i calipers & EBC HH pads. All the foregoing of course with braided SS lines. This later combination IMO provides the most feel (control) and power at the least expense time and moola wise. The leverage ratio this combo offers (28.66) I think is ideal though it may not provide the greatest braking force.
New boy
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 25
From: Birmingham UK
If anybody wants to add to it i can e mail the original xl if you pm me your address
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Heh... It wasn't critiscism... Just an observation... And a half question about why it weas linked back to where the info originated...
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 433
From: Los Angeles & Winston Salem
Hey! back to my question? Please! So should I use a sp1 M/C? will just using the M/C and sticking with my stock calipers see any improvement?
What about any other M/C 's Brembo? maybe from an R1 ?
Thank you forum.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
Hi Guys, quick question regrading the stock superhawk M/C. I like my brakes right now. Stock M/C and calipers with Galfer lines and EBC HH pads. All good, only issue I have is with the stock M/C. Is there any other stock Honda M/C that would work better that the stock Superhawk one? Thinking that maybe there are other stock Honda M/C that may offer better braking power or feel? Thanks all Steve
I got my entire set for $70. Your stock calipers have such tiny pistons that if you upgrade to any better MC you will find that your leverage ratio will be drastically lowered, requiring lots more braking force that you are likely to want.
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Well... Like lazn said (although he said it different) mixing and matching isn't always a good thing... If you change the ratio between M/C and calipers, you change the entire feel... Sometimes a combination ends up being better, but usually not...
Also the stock calipers are, well, the only words that work are "puny" and/or "wimpy"... Plus, there are a lot more of pad materials to choose from if you have a CBR caliper...
So the best way to get more bang for your buck, is to get whatever CBR calipers you prefer, with a matching M/C... If you like, swapping the M/C one small size up or down will work nicely, but not large changes...
Oh, BTW... The CBR 929/954/1000 RR clutch M/C and the VTR clutch M/C is similar enough, that an aftermarket handle for the CBR (matching set) works just fine... That is if you want the handles to look the same... The stock Honda parts obviously also works...
New boy
Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 25
From: Birmingham UK
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 433
From: Los Angeles & Winston Salem
Ok. I guess I was not being very specific to what I may or may not benefit from in changing out M/C's.
Ok when upgrading my stock braking system I installed galfer brakes lines, EBC HH pads and a new CRG brake lever. Well CRG do not list a front brake lever for the Superhawk, but do list one for the CBR F4i. I figured that both M/C would be the same? The lever fits fine, but after reading this thread I noticed that the Superhawk & F4i M/C are different bore dia?
I have to install CRG levers on all the bikes I own beacuse I have XXL size hands, and use the CRG to push the lever away from the handlebar to get it where it feels most comfortable for me. I like the lever to be almost at the tips of my fingers. I also hate to have any access slop? or freeplay in the M/C or at the lever. I'm pretty expert at bleeding brakes. When I install lines I wrap all the bleed nipples with teflon tape, and always install a bleed nipples at the M/C if it does not have one.
Question I have is do you think or know? If I was to install the F4i M/C would I notice any difference in braking power? By having a large bore Dia? not sure exactly how the sicence works on M/C bore dia vs leverage ratio? To be honest I'm pretty happy with the stock set-up just curious if the CRG lever may work better with the F4i M/C and if the F4i M/C would improve my set-up that I already have?
Thank you forum.
Ok when upgrading my stock braking system I installed galfer brakes lines, EBC HH pads and a new CRG brake lever. Well CRG do not list a front brake lever for the Superhawk, but do list one for the CBR F4i. I figured that both M/C would be the same? The lever fits fine, but after reading this thread I noticed that the Superhawk & F4i M/C are different bore dia?
I have to install CRG levers on all the bikes I own beacuse I have XXL size hands, and use the CRG to push the lever away from the handlebar to get it where it feels most comfortable for me. I like the lever to be almost at the tips of my fingers. I also hate to have any access slop? or freeplay in the M/C or at the lever. I'm pretty expert at bleeding brakes. When I install lines I wrap all the bleed nipples with teflon tape, and always install a bleed nipples at the M/C if it does not have one.
Question I have is do you think or know? If I was to install the F4i M/C would I notice any difference in braking power? By having a large bore Dia? not sure exactly how the sicence works on M/C bore dia vs leverage ratio? To be honest I'm pretty happy with the stock set-up just curious if the CRG lever may work better with the F4i M/C and if the F4i M/C would improve my set-up that I already have?
Thank you forum.
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Ok. I guess I was not being very specific to what I may or may not benefit from in changing out M/C's.
Ok when upgrading my stock braking system I installed galfer brakes lines, EBC HH pads and a new CRG brake lever. Well CRG do not list a front brake lever for the Superhawk, but do list one for the CBR F4i. I figured that both M/C would be the same? The lever fits fine, but after reading this thread I noticed that the Superhawk & F4i M/C are different bore dia?
I have to install CRG levers on all the bikes I own beacuse I have XXL size hands, and use the CRG to push the lever away from the handlebar to get it where it feels most comfortable for me. I like the lever to be almost at the tips of my fingers. I also hate to have any access slop? or freeplay in the M/C or at the lever. I'm pretty expert at bleeding brakes. When I install lines I wrap all the bleed nipples with teflon tape, and always install a bleed nipples at the M/C if it does not have one.
Question I have is do you think or know? If I was to install the F4i M/C would I notice any difference in braking power? By having a large bore Dia? not sure exactly how the sicence works on M/C bore dia vs leverage ratio? To be honest I'm pretty happy with the stock set-up just curious if the CRG lever may work better with the F4i M/C and if the F4i M/C would improve my set-up that I already have?
Thank you forum.
Ok when upgrading my stock braking system I installed galfer brakes lines, EBC HH pads and a new CRG brake lever. Well CRG do not list a front brake lever for the Superhawk, but do list one for the CBR F4i. I figured that both M/C would be the same? The lever fits fine, but after reading this thread I noticed that the Superhawk & F4i M/C are different bore dia?
I have to install CRG levers on all the bikes I own beacuse I have XXL size hands, and use the CRG to push the lever away from the handlebar to get it where it feels most comfortable for me. I like the lever to be almost at the tips of my fingers. I also hate to have any access slop? or freeplay in the M/C or at the lever. I'm pretty expert at bleeding brakes. When I install lines I wrap all the bleed nipples with teflon tape, and always install a bleed nipples at the M/C if it does not have one.
Question I have is do you think or know? If I was to install the F4i M/C would I notice any difference in braking power? By having a large bore Dia? not sure exactly how the sicence works on M/C bore dia vs leverage ratio? To be honest I'm pretty happy with the stock set-up just curious if the CRG lever may work better with the F4i M/C and if the F4i M/C would improve my set-up that I already have?
Thank you forum.
The M/C bore relates to the calipers in the way that a larger bore makes the lever firmer, needing more effort with your hand, but shorter movement... The smaller bore VTR M/C takes less effort for the same pressure on the calipers, but it needs to travel further both to engage partially and to gain enough pressure to fully engage the brakes...
What that means for you is that if you keep the stock calipers, a larger bore M/C will give you better stopping power, and since the calipers are smaller than anything else, I doubt anyone will feel that it takes too much effort on the lever... But it also gives you less control, since the movement is less and combined with higher effort, it becomes more digital, ie brakes off - brakes on (and possibly locked) is a shorter transition...
Having a matched set of calipers and M/C gives you both good stopping power and control (in most cases)... Matching the small VTR M/C with larger calipers could be catastrophic, since in a lot of cases you would need the full stroke of the lever to engage the calipers fully... Mixing it the other way, is merely a matter of choice and opinion, it works and is perfectly safe, but you may not like the feel... A side effect of swapping to whatever CBR calipers are that brakepads are usually cheaper and you have a wider selection, but that's not the important part...
The levers for the various M/C's both brake and clutch are very similar on the Honda's, so if it fits to mount, I'm 99% sure it fits in any other respect... The difference in bore has no relation to the handle...
Now you got an explanation (brief) for the theory behind, so now you can make your own mind up on what to swap out...
Last edited by Tweety; Aug 11, 2011 at 02:20 AM.
Just hangin' out
Back Marker
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 136
From: Delaware, Ohio USA
The table was the most important thing to me. I can actually figure mechanical advantage to an extent.
Most everything has something from somewhere else anyway.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 325
From: MN
hey guys,
anyone running the later RC51 setups?? i read the entire 7 pages of this thread and it seemed like everyones running the sp1 setup, i dont know much about the mech advantage and such it was talking about on the spread sheet but it seems like regardless it will be a good mod.. anyone running this system let me know!
thanks
anyone running the later RC51 setups?? i read the entire 7 pages of this thread and it seemed like everyones running the sp1 setup, i dont know much about the mech advantage and such it was talking about on the spread sheet but it seems like regardless it will be a good mod.. anyone running this system let me know!
thanks
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
hey guys,
anyone running the later RC51 setups?? i read the entire 7 pages of this thread and it seemed like everyones running the sp1 setup, i dont know much about the mech advantage and such it was talking about on the spread sheet but it seems like regardless it will be a good mod.. anyone running this system let me know!
thanks
anyone running the later RC51 setups?? i read the entire 7 pages of this thread and it seemed like everyones running the sp1 setup, i dont know much about the mech advantage and such it was talking about on the spread sheet but it seems like regardless it will be a good mod.. anyone running this system let me know!
thanks
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 325
From: MN
ok brake gurus, i have a kz650 that i need a new MC on and since i have the VTR MC extra now i was contemplating putting it on and seeing how it works. the piston size for the kz is 41mm and the vtr's a 14mm MC
Front Master Cylinder Ratio Chart
i dont know enough to make a sound decision on if the vtr MC will work for me or not, the stock 650 MC is 5/8ths and the leverage comes out to 6.67, with the vtr's MC it goes up to 8.58... what exactly do these numbers mean in terms of braking?
right now my 650's brakes are awfully spongy and the MC leaks slowly, i have had the brakes bled and i have done it myself but its just time for a new MC and i thought i could use the VTR's
any and all help would be appreciated
thanks!
Front Master Cylinder Ratio Chart
i dont know enough to make a sound decision on if the vtr MC will work for me or not, the stock 650 MC is 5/8ths and the leverage comes out to 6.67, with the vtr's MC it goes up to 8.58... what exactly do these numbers mean in terms of braking?
right now my 650's brakes are awfully spongy and the MC leaks slowly, i have had the brakes bled and i have done it myself but its just time for a new MC and i thought i could use the VTR's
any and all help would be appreciated
thanks!
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
ok brake gurus, i have a kz650 that i need a new MC on and since i have the VTR MC extra now i was contemplating putting it on and seeing how it works. the piston size for the kz is 41mm and the vtr's a 14mm MC
Front Master Cylinder Ratio Chart
i dont know enough to make a sound decision on if the vtr MC will work for me or not, the stock 650 MC is 5/8ths and the leverage comes out to 6.67, with the vtr's MC it goes up to 8.58... what exactly do these numbers mean in terms of braking?
right now my 650's brakes are awfully spongy and the MC leaks slowly, i have had the brakes bled and i have done it myself but its just time for a new MC and i thought i could use the VTR's
any and all help would be appreciated
thanks!
Front Master Cylinder Ratio Chart
i dont know enough to make a sound decision on if the vtr MC will work for me or not, the stock 650 MC is 5/8ths and the leverage comes out to 6.67, with the vtr's MC it goes up to 8.58... what exactly do these numbers mean in terms of braking?
right now my 650's brakes are awfully spongy and the MC leaks slowly, i have had the brakes bled and i have done it myself but its just time for a new MC and i thought i could use the VTR's
any and all help would be appreciated
thanks!
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 325
From: MN
ahhhh soo the mc has to be at LEAST the same diameter (??) as the one its replacing in order to be viable to use, any modern bikes MC's that we know of are 5/8ths??
edit i remembered reading about this on page 1, and i looked back, sooo the F4i MC eh? interesting
Last edited by Bearshawk; Sep 12, 2011 at 01:30 PM. Reason: did a search myself ;)
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
There are lots of options but yeah you would want 5\8 or 16mm.
Just to broaden your search a little bit I also know that a 650 V-Strom (DL650) uses a 5\8ths front master.... and has a mirror mount on the clamp if that is needed on the bike you are looking to put it on.
Just to broaden your search a little bit I also know that a 650 V-Strom (DL650) uses a 5\8ths front master....
and has a mirror mount on the clamp if that is needed on the bike you are looking to put it on.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 325
From: MN
not a huge issue for me
just looking for something that will work
thats the beast its going on
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
Well to keep it simple, if you put a smaller bore master on, you will have more "feel" but less "power" in the brakes
A larger bore will do the opposite, Less "feel" and more "power"
The trick is finding what works best for you.
You don't want the brakes to be wooden (too much master) or overly "soft" (to little master) but like goldielocks..... just right.
Now what the master comes off of is not really an issue as most bars are 7\8" so it should bolt right on. You might have to do something with the brake light switch but even those terminals are pretty common on all of them.
A larger bore will do the opposite, Less "feel" and more "power"
The trick is finding what works best for you.
You don't want the brakes to be wooden (too much master) or overly "soft" (to little master) but like goldielocks..... just right.
Now what the master comes off of is not really an issue as most bars are 7\8" so it should bolt right on. You might have to do something with the brake light switch but even those terminals are pretty common on all of them.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 325
From: MN
Well to keep it simple, if you put a smaller bore master on, you will have more "feel" but less "power" in the brakes
A larger bore will do the opposite, Less "feel" and more "power"
The trick is finding what works best for you.
You don't want the brakes to be wooden (too much master) or overly "soft" (to little master) but like goldielocks..... just right.
Now what the master comes off of is not really an issue as most bars are 7\8" so it should bolt right on. You might have to do something with the brake light switch but even those terminals are pretty common on all of them.
A larger bore will do the opposite, Less "feel" and more "power"
The trick is finding what works best for you.
You don't want the brakes to be wooden (too much master) or overly "soft" (to little master) but like goldielocks..... just right.
Now what the master comes off of is not really an issue as most bars are 7\8" so it should bolt right on. You might have to do something with the brake light switch but even those terminals are pretty common on all of them.
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,132
From: Phoenix, AZ
Well to keep it simple, if you put a smaller bore master on, you will have more "feel" but less "power" in the brakes
A larger bore will do the opposite, Less "feel" and more "power"
The trick is finding what works best for you.
You don't want the brakes to be wooden (too much master) or overly "soft" (to little master) but like goldielocks..... just right.
Now what the master comes off of is not really an issue as most bars are 7\8" so it should bolt right on. You might have to do something with the brake light switch but even those terminals are pretty common on all of them.
A larger bore will do the opposite, Less "feel" and more "power"
The trick is finding what works best for you.
You don't want the brakes to be wooden (too much master) or overly "soft" (to little master) but like goldielocks..... just right.
Now what the master comes off of is not really an issue as most bars are 7\8" so it should bolt right on. You might have to do something with the brake light switch but even those terminals are pretty common on all of them.
Senior Member
Superstock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 325
From: MN
i thought so! i thought that the increased number on the chart meant more power, well thats exactly what i need more power the brakes suck
