CCTs-How to change OEM to Manual Ape CCTs
07-13-2007, 11:23 AM
#32
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Put a zip tie around the cam chain beforeyou remove the rear CCT, not after. I recomend doing this as it only involves a few more minutes of removing the cover and you will be sure not to have jumped any teeth..... just remember to take the tie off when the new CCT is installed... The front will be fine as long as you are directly on the FT line.
09-13-2007, 06:07 PM
#36
Josh
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Funny question, but do we need to drain the oil before we do this job? Mine was drained the last time i was doing it, but i was rebuilding the engine. I put in used tensioners instead of these, sadly, so i need to do it now.
09-13-2007, 06:47 PM
#37
Escape Reality
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NO need to drain the oil. but if you were to remove the head, I suggest you change the oil at that time.
09-20-2007, 06:00 PM
#38
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Squid
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Here is his Ebay store.
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZoicuride
I think my total with gaskets came out to 103 shipped to WA from Cali.
Probably gonna do the install tomarrow after work.
Great write up thanks
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZoicuride
I think my total with gaskets came out to 103 shipped to WA from Cali.
Probably gonna do the install tomarrow after work.
Great write up thanks
10-03-2007, 10:58 AM
#39
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Is changing the CCTs over worth it if you don't do track riding?
From what I understand, this is something that only needs to be done if your at high speeds, lots of tension, etc etc. What is considered high enough speeds to warrant such a change?
From what I understand, this is something that only needs to be done if your at high speeds, lots of tension, etc etc. What is considered high enough speeds to warrant such a change?
12-21-2007, 12:30 PM
#41
Josh
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Just do it!
Good luck with your new Hawk
12-21-2007, 11:33 PM
#42
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Calitoz,
I've never been into one of these so correct me if I'm wrong, but you talk about needing to have the piston at absolute TDC in order to avoid having the cam chain jump, presumably from being moved by a valve spring trying to close an open valve, when the CCT is removed. It seems to me that this would only be true if the piston were at TDC of the exhuast stroke, and that if you rotated the crank 360 degrees and the piston were at the top of its compression stroke, then both valves would be closed and all four valve followers would be on the heels of their respective lobes and you would have quite a few degrees of crank play before a lobe would start pressing on a valve and everything would stay put.
Also, you talk fighting engine compression by moving the engine via the rear wheel in high gear. Why not simply remove the sparkplugs in the first place and rotate the engine with a wrench? Plug removal would also avoid any possibility that engine compression would cause any parts to move when tension was removed from a cam chain.
Looks like a pretty easy job as far as engine work goes, in fact the biggest thing I'm worried about is maybe having to take the fairing off, what am I missing here?
I've never been into one of these so correct me if I'm wrong, but you talk about needing to have the piston at absolute TDC in order to avoid having the cam chain jump, presumably from being moved by a valve spring trying to close an open valve, when the CCT is removed. It seems to me that this would only be true if the piston were at TDC of the exhuast stroke, and that if you rotated the crank 360 degrees and the piston were at the top of its compression stroke, then both valves would be closed and all four valve followers would be on the heels of their respective lobes and you would have quite a few degrees of crank play before a lobe would start pressing on a valve and everything would stay put.
Also, you talk fighting engine compression by moving the engine via the rear wheel in high gear. Why not simply remove the sparkplugs in the first place and rotate the engine with a wrench? Plug removal would also avoid any possibility that engine compression would cause any parts to move when tension was removed from a cam chain.
Looks like a pretty easy job as far as engine work goes, in fact the biggest thing I'm worried about is maybe having to take the fairing off, what am I missing here?
12-22-2007, 07:10 AM
#43
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Calitoz,
I've never been into one of these so correct me if I'm wrong, but you talk about needing to have the piston at absolute TDC in order to avoid having the cam chain jump, presumably from being moved by a valve spring trying to close an open valve, when the CCT is removed. It seems to me that this would only be true if the piston were at TDC of the exhuast stroke, and that if you rotated the crank 360 degrees and the piston were at the top of its compression stroke, then both valves would be closed and all four valve followers would be on the heels of their respective lobes and you would have quite a few degrees of crank play before a lobe would start pressing on a valve and everything would stay put.
I've never been into one of these so correct me if I'm wrong, but you talk about needing to have the piston at absolute TDC in order to avoid having the cam chain jump, presumably from being moved by a valve spring trying to close an open valve, when the CCT is removed. It seems to me that this would only be true if the piston were at TDC of the exhuast stroke, and that if you rotated the crank 360 degrees and the piston were at the top of its compression stroke, then both valves would be closed and all four valve followers would be on the heels of their respective lobes and you would have quite a few degrees of crank play before a lobe would start pressing on a valve and everything would stay put.
Also, you talk fighting engine compression by moving the engine via the rear wheel in high gear. Why not simply remove the sparkplugs in the first place and rotate the engine with a wrench? Plug removal would also avoid any possibility that engine compression would cause any parts to move when tension was removed from a cam chain.
It is easy enough if you are patient....as for the fairing, it is the easiest removal process of any bike that I've encountered.
Last edited by calitoz; 12-23-2007 at 08:55 PM.
12-22-2007, 07:11 AM
#44
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No..do it now...if anything, for the peace of mind
12-22-2007, 10:43 AM
#45
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[quote=calitoz;140616]I believe you are correct in the assumption. The thing about this method is without removing the cam cover, you can't tell what stroke it is at. Correct me if I am wrong. At absolute TDC as indicated by the crank shaft "RT" and "FT", it is safe to remove the CCT without it jumping. Obviously the best method is to remove the cam cover and rotate it until no cam lobe is putting any pressure on the valve stem. At that point, it is irrelevant if you are TDC or not.
No, the cams are geared to rotate once for every two revolutions of the crank, so without removing the cover you have a random 50/50 chance of being on the compression stroke when the "FT" or "RT" appears. If you happen to be at TDC on the exhaust stroke and a valve is open when you remove the CCT you risk the valve trying to close and a jumped tooth. Gotta check those valve clearances anyway so why not just remove the covers so you can see what you're doing?
One additional thing that occured to me is to only rotate the engine forward in order to insure that all of the slack is on the back side of the chain where the tensioner is located before removing it. That way you can be reasonably sure your initial setting of the manual CCT is accurate. I would then rotate the engine for a few revolutions and recheck the setting, again on TDC of the compression stroke. When it comes to engine work, mistakes can be very expensive.
No, the cams are geared to rotate once for every two revolutions of the crank, so without removing the cover you have a random 50/50 chance of being on the compression stroke when the "FT" or "RT" appears. If you happen to be at TDC on the exhaust stroke and a valve is open when you remove the CCT you risk the valve trying to close and a jumped tooth. Gotta check those valve clearances anyway so why not just remove the covers so you can see what you're doing?
One additional thing that occured to me is to only rotate the engine forward in order to insure that all of the slack is on the back side of the chain where the tensioner is located before removing it. That way you can be reasonably sure your initial setting of the manual CCT is accurate. I would then rotate the engine for a few revolutions and recheck the setting, again on TDC of the compression stroke. When it comes to engine work, mistakes can be very expensive.
12-22-2007, 02:29 PM
#46
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No, the cams are geared to rotate once for every two revolutions of the crank, so without removing the cover you have a random 50/50 chance of being on the compression stroke when the "FT" or "RT" appears. If you happen to be at TDC on the exhaust stroke and a valve is open when you remove the CCT you risk the valve trying to close and a jumped tooth. Gotta check those valve clearances anyway so why not just remove the covers so you can see what you're doing?
One additional thing that occured to me is to only rotate the engine forward in order to insure that all of the slack is on the back side of the chain where the tensioner is located before removing it. That way you can be reasonably sure your initial setting of the manual CCT is accurate. I would then rotate the engine for a few revolutions and recheck the setting, again on TDC of the compression stroke. When it comes to engine work, mistakes can be very expensive.
One additional thing that occured to me is to only rotate the engine forward in order to insure that all of the slack is on the back side of the chain where the tensioner is located before removing it. That way you can be reasonably sure your initial setting of the manual CCT is accurate. I would then rotate the engine for a few revolutions and recheck the setting, again on TDC of the compression stroke. When it comes to engine work, mistakes can be very expensive.
Lastly, at absolute TDC on the exhaust stroke, the valves are NOT open contrary to your above statement.
Bottom line is this at absolute TDC it is safe to remove the CCT
I don't disagree with you on whether or not to remove the cover as it is a better idea especially (adjustment of valves are in order, you going to change the oil anyway, etc) but I will leave the reasoning for not removing it to others and there are a number of reason why it is preferred.
As for your statement of rotating the engine in forward motion, it is redundant and is assumed as forward motion (natural tendency) is much easier then trying to reverse it to get back to the mark.
Remember, this how to is a generalization of how to do the CCT. There are other ways to do it and I will never say one way is better then the next. This is just my way and the quickest way not necessarily the proper way according to others. When is the last time two mechanics agreed on the methodology of the removal of a 9/16 bolt?
Last edited by calitoz; 12-23-2007 at 08:54 PM.
12-22-2007, 04:23 PM
#48
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apparently honda did upgrade or 'fix' the tensioner - I do not know what year that went into effect but it was in the early models. There have been reported failures which result in major engine damage and as a result a great deal of caution on this site - personally I think the hype and worry is out of proportion to the problem, but I suppose mine could fail tomorrow. That said, if you like working on your bike and you follow the instructions in this excellent post and don't take shortcuts, its a simple job - you can get some other maintenance done at same time (valve adjustment in particular) and in that light its an easy 'why not'. It then requires maintenance - not a lot, but it does require it. To put it in perspective I think over the past year I've read of more bent valves from botched installations of the manual CCTs than I had of failures on the stock parts. So if you are going to do something that is probably overkill for 95% of cases, at least do it right. my perspective at least
01-04-2008, 06:12 PM
#49
Josh
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Ok,
I have worked on this for the last 3 months. Here are recent pix of the job. I am able to get the timing mark on the crank, but the cams are not perfectly lined up. It seems that they are about 2 degrees off. Please let me know what you think, so i can fix it right now and finish this.
This shows it with the cams lined up, but the timing mark on the crank is about 2mm away.
This shows what the cams look like when the cranks timing mark is set. They are not correct. I am seriously confused.
I have worked on this for the last 3 months. Here are recent pix of the job. I am able to get the timing mark on the crank, but the cams are not perfectly lined up. It seems that they are about 2 degrees off. Please let me know what you think, so i can fix it right now and finish this.
This shows it with the cams lined up, but the timing mark on the crank is about 2mm away.
This shows what the cams look like when the cranks timing mark is set. They are not correct. I am seriously confused.
01-04-2008, 07:43 PM
#50
Josh
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Ok, I just started taking the tensioners after talking to cilby. Here is what is going on. I have just begun to remove the tensioner and the cams are starting to slack. So i have not completed it and i have not heard a click, so i know i can just screw them back in and no harm will be done. Here are the pix.
Lobes are offset and off the valves.
Perfectly lined up!
THey are slacking
I am really concerned and confused why it isnt working as planned. Please give me any advice you have.
Lobes are offset and off the valves.
Perfectly lined up!
THey are slacking
I am really concerned and confused why it isnt working as planned. Please give me any advice you have.
01-20-2008, 07:30 PM
#51
Josh
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A NEW IDEA
Update:
Well, my friend finally helped me out and we did something that i haven't heard discussed on the forum. We have successfully done the rear tensioner and it wasn't that bad. The trick was using a hook to force the chain in tension during the switch. Obviously this takes a second person, but it worked marvelously. We did all the work on timing as i have already talked about but then we used a hook to hold the chain in, just in case it wasn't totally tight. Well it worked just great! I believe it was a car battery tie down and we just hooked it on the chain about the point where the tensioner was and just held it in. We also used a sharpie and made marks to where we started. After we were done everything was just perfect! So i would strongly suggest people carefully add this to their tensioner job.
Well, my friend finally helped me out and we did something that i haven't heard discussed on the forum. We have successfully done the rear tensioner and it wasn't that bad. The trick was using a hook to force the chain in tension during the switch. Obviously this takes a second person, but it worked marvelously. We did all the work on timing as i have already talked about but then we used a hook to hold the chain in, just in case it wasn't totally tight. Well it worked just great! I believe it was a car battery tie down and we just hooked it on the chain about the point where the tensioner was and just held it in. We also used a sharpie and made marks to where we started. After we were done everything was just perfect! So i would strongly suggest people carefully add this to their tensioner job.
01-23-2008, 03:55 PM
#52
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I'm confused. Where did you hook the chain? I understand you said "about the point where the tensioner was" but that's inside the head, plus the idea is to mobilize the chain before the tensioner is removed. I don't get it. 
01-24-2008, 09:52 AM
#53
Josh
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Ok, i will be doing the front in a few days with the same technique. it is actually incredibly simple, as long as your friend who is helping you doesn't move. I will post a few pix next time. We took a hook, and just pulled the chain. It was in almost the exact same location that the original tensioner was pushing. Yes this is inside the head. It worked perfectly.
01-30-2008, 09:34 PM
#54
Josh
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OKAY, so great news and weird news. First, the bike is done. Both tensioners are on and no bad issues.
It was very strange, it timed perfectly this time. I just set it like described in the walkthrough, no issues at all.
The Problem: The tension in the chain is very very substantial. So i need advice. Before i started the job, and i just had taken the valve cover off, the chain was really tight, there was no slack in the chain. So i want to know what people think of that? I have the new tensioner on, but i have turned the engine like 10x and it stays tight even when i loosen the tensioner. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!
It was very strange, it timed perfectly this time. I just set it like described in the walkthrough, no issues at all.
The Problem: The tension in the chain is very very substantial. So i need advice. Before i started the job, and i just had taken the valve cover off, the chain was really tight, there was no slack in the chain. So i want to know what people think of that? I have the new tensioner on, but i have turned the engine like 10x and it stays tight even when i loosen the tensioner. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!
Last edited by viperkillertt; 01-30-2008 at 09:36 PM.
08-02-2008, 09:00 PM
#58
Josh
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Dang, I cant remember where i got mine, I think i got them off of ebay, but i think APE sells them directly.
http://cbrzone.com/sprockets.html
that is their website. They are about 51 bucks a piece. You also want to buy the gaskets. Good luck!
http://cbrzone.com/sprockets.html
that is their website. They are about 51 bucks a piece. You also want to buy the gaskets. Good luck!
08-03-2008, 08:02 AM
#59
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Squid
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Well these are on ebay for about $52. I talked to them and they said they had 5 in stock. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=160258990989
And if you want to go with the OEM the best price I found was at service honda http://www.servicehonda.com/index.html I think their OEM were the same price as the APE manuals from the other place. Stealership wants $88 for the same damned thing!
And if you want to go with the OEM the best price I found was at service honda http://www.servicehonda.com/index.html I think their OEM were the same price as the APE manuals from the other place. Stealership wants $88 for the same damned thing!
08-03-2008, 09:32 AM
#60
Josh
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Well these are on ebay for about $52. I talked to them and they said they had 5 in stock. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=160258990989
And if you want to go with the OEM the best price I found was at service honda http://www.servicehonda.com/index.html I think their OEM were the same price as the APE manuals from the other place. Stealership wants $88 for the same damned thing!
And if you want to go with the OEM the best price I found was at service honda http://www.servicehonda.com/index.html I think their OEM were the same price as the APE manuals from the other place. Stealership wants $88 for the same damned thing!
Have a nice day
