SH Front Brakes - One Rider's Opinion
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SH Front Brakes - One Rider's Opinion
I've participated in this forum for about 2.5 years. One topic that comes up time and again is "upgrading the front brakes." My opinion, is just that, an opinion, and not meant to flame anyone." That being said, I believe that upgrading to any nonstock front brake set is a waste of money unless you are an "outright racer" and that is all the SH is used for--you don't see many of those. There is only one other valid reason for upgrading--"just because I want to."
I've used an SH for 10 track days and just completed about 36 laps at Road America. RA will challenge the front brakes like no sane street riding ever will. There are three straights on RA where a SH will see 6th gear red line--let's say 155 mph. You'll haul down to about 65-75 mph for turn 1, down to about 50-55 mph in turn 5, and maybe 45-50 in turn 11 (Canada corner). At about 6 laps per session that's being on the fronts HARD three times per lap for 18 hard stops. I'm using EBC HH pads in stock caliphers, with stock rotors, and stock rubber brake lines--no fade, no chatter, no scary stuff at all. I was going to pop for steel braided lines but now I think not!
I've used an SH for 10 track days and just completed about 36 laps at Road America. RA will challenge the front brakes like no sane street riding ever will. There are three straights on RA where a SH will see 6th gear red line--let's say 155 mph. You'll haul down to about 65-75 mph for turn 1, down to about 50-55 mph in turn 5, and maybe 45-50 in turn 11 (Canada corner). At about 6 laps per session that's being on the fronts HARD three times per lap for 18 hard stops. I'm using EBC HH pads in stock caliphers, with stock rotors, and stock rubber brake lines--no fade, no chatter, no scary stuff at all. I was going to pop for steel braided lines but now I think not!
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From: Lake View Terrace, CA
I've participated in this forum for about 2.5 years. One topic that comes up time and again is "upgrading the front brakes." My opinion, is just that, an opinion, and not meant to flame anyone." That being said, I believe that upgrading to any nonstock front brake set is a waste of money unless you are an "outright racer" and that is all the SH is used for--you don't see many of those. There is only one other valid reason for upgrading--"just because I want to."
I've used an SH for 10 track days and just completed about 36 laps at Road America. RA will challenge the front brakes like no sane street riding ever will. There are three straights on RA where a SH will see 6th gear red line--let's say 155 mph. You'll haul down to about 65-75 mph for turn 1, down to about 50-55 mph in turn 5, and maybe 45-50 in turn 11 (Canada corner). At about 6 laps per session that's being on the fronts HARD three times per lap for 18 hard stops. I'm using EBC HH pads in stock caliphers, with stock rotors, and stock rubber brake lines--no fade, no chatter, no scary stuff at all. I was going to pop for steel braided lines but now I think not!
I've used an SH for 10 track days and just completed about 36 laps at Road America. RA will challenge the front brakes like no sane street riding ever will. There are three straights on RA where a SH will see 6th gear red line--let's say 155 mph. You'll haul down to about 65-75 mph for turn 1, down to about 50-55 mph in turn 5, and maybe 45-50 in turn 11 (Canada corner). At about 6 laps per session that's being on the fronts HARD three times per lap for 18 hard stops. I'm using EBC HH pads in stock caliphers, with stock rotors, and stock rubber brake lines--no fade, no chatter, no scary stuff at all. I was going to pop for steel braided lines but now I think not!
All I can say is that you just might have a change of attitude if you ever got the chance to ride a SH with a different\better brake system installed.
It really does make a world of difference.
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Superstock
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: Los Angeles & Winston Salem
Brakes?
Yes and no?
I would say that for the majority of riders you may be correct. Most brake changes are done with the same emotion that people install different mufflers on there bikes. I for one feel stock the Honda brakes are a little on the weak side. Saying that for me personally, Brake lines EBC HH pads and a Crg brake lever improved it no end.
Are EBC HH pads the end all and be all, no! Are they a good all round brake pad yes. Not sure what type of track rider you are. I run in the fast group on trackdays and you can overheat these pads. EBC HH pads have a very good intial bite, then they tend not to get any stronger with more applied pressure. I think this is what makes most people feel the EBC pads are so good over the stock Honda pads, what you are feeling a is a grabby intial bite. Take a very well rated brake pad like Versah rjls. Now these pads behave in a totally different way to the EBC, they have a very linear feel, only grab and bite harder the more you squeeze the lever. Only thing is you need different calipers to run them. Yes for 90% of riders EBC HH pads work fine. If you just want to have a cool brake setup with lots of braking power then stock is not going to do it.
How was it riding Road America? I plan on doing that track soon, I'm living in California at the moment but brought a house in North Carolina last summer just not be able to move out there yet. My wife and kids have been living in it since last August I fly back once a month to visit. Looking forward to riding V.I.R also. Over here it's Willow springs, Cali Speedway or Buttonwillow for me.
Ride safe.
I would say that for the majority of riders you may be correct. Most brake changes are done with the same emotion that people install different mufflers on there bikes. I for one feel stock the Honda brakes are a little on the weak side. Saying that for me personally, Brake lines EBC HH pads and a Crg brake lever improved it no end.
Are EBC HH pads the end all and be all, no! Are they a good all round brake pad yes. Not sure what type of track rider you are. I run in the fast group on trackdays and you can overheat these pads. EBC HH pads have a very good intial bite, then they tend not to get any stronger with more applied pressure. I think this is what makes most people feel the EBC pads are so good over the stock Honda pads, what you are feeling a is a grabby intial bite. Take a very well rated brake pad like Versah rjls. Now these pads behave in a totally different way to the EBC, they have a very linear feel, only grab and bite harder the more you squeeze the lever. Only thing is you need different calipers to run them. Yes for 90% of riders EBC HH pads work fine. If you just want to have a cool brake setup with lots of braking power then stock is not going to do it.
How was it riding Road America? I plan on doing that track soon, I'm living in California at the moment but brought a house in North Carolina last summer just not be able to move out there yet. My wife and kids have been living in it since last August I fly back once a month to visit. Looking forward to riding V.I.R also. Over here it's Willow springs, Cali Speedway or Buttonwillow for me.
Ride safe.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
The stock brakes will stop the bike just fine, they will lock up the front wheel at any speed in any situation if you grab them hard enough.
This is true for basically ANY bike made after 1970.
But swapping to a better brakes setup will give you FAR more feedback and control than the wooden stock ones.
I locked up my front wheel more than once in emergency situations (that are far too common in Phoenix traffic) prior to my F4i swap. But after the swap I have only done that once, and that was while I was going down post getting hit by a grandma that didn't see me. This despite needing less force to lock them up.. It's because I can feel the feedback and modulate my braking so much better now.
This is true for basically ANY bike made after 1970.
But swapping to a better brakes setup will give you FAR more feedback and control than the wooden stock ones.
I locked up my front wheel more than once in emergency situations (that are far too common in Phoenix traffic) prior to my F4i swap. But after the swap I have only done that once, and that was while I was going down post getting hit by a grandma that didn't see me. This despite needing less force to lock them up.. It's because I can feel the feedback and modulate my braking so much better now.
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From: Skurup, Sweden
The stock brakes are fine... With the right pads they are better than fine... The stopping power is there, and no noticable fade unless you are really pushing them...
The reason I swapped was feel... If you start pushing, like on a track, or more active riding on the road, the stock brakes are fairly digital... You either "stop" as in brake heavy or you don't... No bleeding off speed with the ability to modulate...
With bigger brakes you get more stopping power, a lot more, more than you can safely use in most cases... I can safely say that's the case with the radial brakes on CBR 1000RR forks... But with the right combination you also get the option to modulate the braking a lot more...
The reason I swapped was feel... If you start pushing, like on a track, or more active riding on the road, the stock brakes are fairly digital... You either "stop" as in brake heavy or you don't... No bleeding off speed with the ability to modulate...
With bigger brakes you get more stopping power, a lot more, more than you can safely use in most cases... I can safely say that's the case with the radial brakes on CBR 1000RR forks... But with the right combination you also get the option to modulate the braking a lot more...
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From: Big Lick
YTK, I agree with your premise. I don't think brake upgrades are all that important to the average street rider. If you can do a stoppie with them, how much more do you really need, right? However, at my last trip to Road Atlanta I was riding intermediate with NESBA. It was the first time I ever experienced brake fade. toward the end of one of the afternoon sessions, I could feel a dramatic diference in braking. I plan to upgrade to SS lines to see how that helps. Maybe advanced guys have more problems with them, but I'm just an average guy having fun at the track. Tweety's point is a good one though. having more than enough brakes allows for more options as you press harder. Plus we all like to tinker, right. 
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Hmmm google maps? Not sure really. So far the only two tracks that are pretty close to the NC house (Winston-Salem) are V.I.R & Carolina motorsport park. For some reason I thought that track was close by also?
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Stock brakes with EBC HH pads on the front work fine for me. I don't do track days, but I do spirited canyon carving about twice a week. I know the road I usually ride very well, and I don't take the speed way up on the straights. So with just holding speed between corners, I can just roll off the throttle and let compression braking slow me down for entry. When I do need to use the brakes hard, they respond well. I noticed a big improvement with the HH pads, and I'm on my 2nd set now. I don't wear out rear pads, they're still stock.
My wife's SV650S with EBC HH pads out front is another story. If I rode an SV full time, I'd have to upgrade the brakes and the suspension to match my riding.
My wife's SV650S with EBC HH pads out front is another story. If I rode an SV full time, I'd have to upgrade the brakes and the suspension to match my riding.
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YTK, I agree with your premise. I don't think brake upgrades are all that important to the average street rider. If you can do a stoppie with them, how much more do you really need, right? However, at my last trip to Road Atlanta I was riding intermediate with NESBA. It was the first time I ever experienced brake fade. toward the end of one of the afternoon sessions, I could feel a dramatic diference in braking. I plan to upgrade to SS lines to see how that helps. Maybe advanced guys have more problems with them, but I'm just an average guy having fun at the track. Tweety's point is a good one though. having more than enough brakes allows for more options as you press harder. Plus we all like to tinker, right.
The better brakes give you more control and feedback, the extra stopping power isn't needed or important, that is an unimportant side effect.
Just try a bike with a brake upgrade once to see what I mean.. I was happy with my brakes till I tried yruyur's after he went to F4i. At that point I knew when I did my fork swap that upgraded brakes were going to be a part of it.
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From: Big Lick
Check out Sportbike Track Time's website. they offer days at lots of tracks. Also check NESBA. they have dates around too.
If you want to venture a bit farther, there's a track in eastern WV, and a couple in Ohio. There's also a new one opening in the NW Atlanta area.
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My previous bike was an '87 Magna with a single front disk and drum rear brakes. It was AWFUL trying to stop, so when I first really started testing the Hawk, the front brakes felt extremely strong and responsive. But I haven't gotten to the point of track riding yet, and the bigger is better opinion seems very valid.
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I understand the brake control issue, 620,000+ street miles have given me many opportunities to learn about control. Since I have an artificial right leg, and have had for all but 2 of my 48 years of riding experience, I've never used a rear brake for 46 years. All my braking obviously comes from the front. I've probably been a serious "trail braker" longer than most members of this forum have been riding. This VTR gives me all the feedback that I need.
If you want better brakes, go for it. I can think of only one other area as important as good brakes--a good suspension. It's your money; use it to make yourself happy. . . and safe.
If you want better brakes, go for it. I can think of only one other area as important as good brakes--a good suspension. It's your money; use it to make yourself happy. . . and safe.
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WTKin W1
You are correct that the brakes on the VTR will do the job reasonably well at the track. I've been doing track days with my VTR for 11 years using stock breaks with HH pads and yes they do the job. But as they say, "The best you've had is the best you've ridden".
I have a new front end, including brakes and will be doing 3 track days at the end of the month. I will let you know if it was worth the money.
You are correct that the brakes on the VTR will do the job reasonably well at the track. I've been doing track days with my VTR for 11 years using stock breaks with HH pads and yes they do the job. But as they say, "The best you've had is the best you've ridden".
I have a new front end, including brakes and will be doing 3 track days at the end of the month. I will let you know if it was worth the money.
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Sorry for the thread jack guys.
Old Yeller. Yea I guess V.I.R will be my local track. Always liked the look of the track when watching AMA racing on TV. Hear lots of good things about CMP. At the moment I stuck in Los Angeles working. Once I get to NC looking forward to riding some tracks and mountian roads over there.
YTKinWI Wish I had kept a mileage log. Been riding on the street for over 31 years now. At one time I was a motorcycle messenger for about 8 years, use to do around 50,000 a year. Before and after that would average around 30,000 a year. For the last 5 years I'm down to around only 15,000-20,000 a year on the street. Would be kind of neat to have a mileage log and click over a Million miles huh? I think any current racer would tell you the brakes on our Superhawks are crap! But for us old farts they suffice. I find my semi-stock brake system set-up to be ok, not great by any long shot. Just try out one the latest superbikes and you will be blown away by the strength and feel that this years crop of superbikes have. Still I find the superhawk to be a great do it all, sleeper of a motorbike.
Old Yeller. Yea I guess V.I.R will be my local track. Always liked the look of the track when watching AMA racing on TV. Hear lots of good things about CMP. At the moment I stuck in Los Angeles working. Once I get to NC looking forward to riding some tracks and mountian roads over there.
YTKinWI Wish I had kept a mileage log. Been riding on the street for over 31 years now. At one time I was a motorcycle messenger for about 8 years, use to do around 50,000 a year. Before and after that would average around 30,000 a year. For the last 5 years I'm down to around only 15,000-20,000 a year on the street. Would be kind of neat to have a mileage log and click over a Million miles huh? I think any current racer would tell you the brakes on our Superhawks are crap! But for us old farts they suffice. I find my semi-stock brake system set-up to be ok, not great by any long shot. Just try out one the latest superbikes and you will be blown away by the strength and feel that this years crop of superbikes have. Still I find the superhawk to be a great do it all, sleeper of a motorbike.
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From: thorold ontario
i noticed a big difference when i upgraded my calipers and pads and lines, and even bigger when i swapped to bigger rotors. lets put it this way, at about 130 mph i touched the brakes and my nuts ate the gas tank. even the upgraded calipers lines pads and master wouldnt do that to me, well they would if i wanted to, but the addition of the big rotors took me by surprise
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I recently changed from the stock calipers with stainless lines and ebc hh pads (I had been riding with this setup since 2004). I switched to the gsxr 6 pot setup. The difference is amazing!
I probably didn't need it based on the riding I do, but I still think it was worth every penny.
The very first time out with the new brakes, I needed to come to a very quick stop. The old brakes would have been fine, but I would have had to really squeeze the lever. With the new setup, it was absolutely effortless to stop the bike quickly.
In my opinion, it's a great upgrade.
I probably didn't need it based on the riding I do, but I still think it was worth every penny.
The very first time out with the new brakes, I needed to come to a very quick stop. The old brakes would have been fine, but I would have had to really squeeze the lever. With the new setup, it was absolutely effortless to stop the bike quickly.
In my opinion, it's a great upgrade.
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From: thorold ontario
i think thats the biggest thing with it, the old brake system will stop you, but youve gotta work the brakes, the upgraded setup allows you stop just as hard without having to work the lever as hard. that to me is worth the upgrade.
i remember on one of my cars i had done some mild brake upgrades and the car stopped good. i was impressed, then i drove my old bosses 350z with the brembo brakes on it and just a light touch of the pedal pulled the car to a stop, huge difference.
i remember on one of my cars i had done some mild brake upgrades and the car stopped good. i was impressed, then i drove my old bosses 350z with the brembo brakes on it and just a light touch of the pedal pulled the car to a stop, huge difference.
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From: Big Lick
I agree with you. you do have to work them on the track, for sure. that's where I experienced my brake fade and knew the system needs upgrades. However, for everyday street riding, they have never been a problem.
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From: In a van down by the river (I wish!)
I always upgrade brakes whenever possible. I’m not a track guy, but I don’t see any disadvantage, especially for the cost. There are people who ride 600lb HDs with whatever Flintstone brakes they have perfectly well, but I don’t see the point unless you’re a masochist or a Luddite. It’s like requesting a dick reduction in some ways.
But hell, if you like the way the SH is stock, cool. It’s a great bike and you’re getting more out of your stock brakes than us road guys get off GSXR 6-shoorters w/ radial master cylinders, etc. Maybe size isn’t important and it’s all about how you use it... but I need every advantage I can get
CR
But hell, if you like the way the SH is stock, cool. It’s a great bike and you’re getting more out of your stock brakes than us road guys get off GSXR 6-shoorters w/ radial master cylinders, etc. Maybe size isn’t important and it’s all about how you use it... but I need every advantage I can get
CR
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Squid
Joined: Nov 2009
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I have to agree with Crashrat. I've upgraded mine with Braking Wave Rotors, DP HH+ pads, steel lines, and finally a Spiegler radial M/C. The setup has feel and feedback that stock just couldn't offer, has much better modulation and control, and frankly, out-stops most anything I've ridden with. This setup gives me much better performance on the track, (when I can make it there), and after 18 seasons of racing 600's, I'm much more capable of using them properly on the street, too.
Of course, brakes of that caliber forced me to upgrade the front suspension; and I'm extremely pleased with the stock fork with full Race-Tech internals on .95kg/mm springs. And of course, balancing that improvement necessitated an upgrade at the rear, too...so Ohlins it is.
I bought this bike new in 97, and so help me, I love it like no other I've ever owned or ridden. She's a keeper for sure!
Of course, brakes of that caliber forced me to upgrade the front suspension; and I'm extremely pleased with the stock fork with full Race-Tech internals on .95kg/mm springs. And of course, balancing that improvement necessitated an upgrade at the rear, too...so Ohlins it is.
I bought this bike new in 97, and so help me, I love it like no other I've ever owned or ridden. She's a keeper for sure!
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Squid
Joined: Apr 2011
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From: San Diego
I upgraded my brake lines this weekend, and it was a great improvement over stock.
The stock lines ( rubber) may have been weakend, or deteriorated of the years, or maybe it was the fluid had never been changed. The brake lever when pulled with two fingers, would contact my other fingers on the bar. this was too much pull for my comfort, bad feedback, too spungy.
So, I pulled off the stock hoses, and had some lines ( Earls brake lines) made up at a speed shop near by.
The lines measured 25 in. and 25.5in. and I used a double banjo at the top, and had to rotate the lines inboard a bit to avoid the instrument cluster. The bottom of the lines have a 30deg. bend at the caliper.
The feedback is incredible I pull the lever maybe 3/4 in. to a solid feel, and the binders, and pads are fine.
The only issue I have now is I may not have the right crush washers on, or maybe I am too afraid to tighten the banjo bolt anymore, but, I have some brake fluid seepage at the top banjo bolt.
Otherwise, I am very happy with this upgrade.
The stock lines ( rubber) may have been weakend, or deteriorated of the years, or maybe it was the fluid had never been changed. The brake lever when pulled with two fingers, would contact my other fingers on the bar. this was too much pull for my comfort, bad feedback, too spungy.
So, I pulled off the stock hoses, and had some lines ( Earls brake lines) made up at a speed shop near by.
The lines measured 25 in. and 25.5in. and I used a double banjo at the top, and had to rotate the lines inboard a bit to avoid the instrument cluster. The bottom of the lines have a 30deg. bend at the caliper.
The feedback is incredible I pull the lever maybe 3/4 in. to a solid feel, and the binders, and pads are fine.
The only issue I have now is I may not have the right crush washers on, or maybe I am too afraid to tighten the banjo bolt anymore, but, I have some brake fluid seepage at the top banjo bolt.
Otherwise, I am very happy with this upgrade.
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Apr 6, 2008 09:18 AM
