I'm back
04-12-2018, 12:15 PM
#1
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 8
I'm back
It's been a couple years so I figured I'd get with it. Changed jobs at the end of 2016 and had to re-register here since I was using my old work email and couldn't remember my password. Anyway, still riding. Bike has 44k now. Rode today. My nutz are still frozen to the tank. My old user name was the same with one less "m" at the end. Hey Wolv, any way to reset my username back to the old one (with new email) so I can start where I left off? Did I miss the T-shirt order? After 5 years, mine is getting a little ragged. Glad to be back. Tim
04-12-2018, 05:26 PM
#2
Moderator
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 5,072
Moderators don't have the powa to alter your user name. Admin isn't very active here. The best thing to do would be to message him and be patient.
Haven't run shirts in a while but I think you did miss the last run. You're the second person to show interest, if enough people did, I'd consider another go.
And btw, I rode to work this morning, it wan't that cold...
Haven't run shirts in a while but I think you did miss the last run. You're the second person to show interest, if enough people did, I'd consider another go.
And btw, I rode to work this morning, it wan't that cold...
04-14-2018, 04:49 AM
#4
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Malden MA
Posts: 172
Welcome back Tim. I joined about 4 years ago. In Boston the weather was better in February I rode a couple of week ends. March forget it and April is not any better so far. Good luck with the Admin, more like an absente landlord.
TEE shirts I'm in but what about the pockets!!!!
TEE shirts I'm in but what about the pockets!!!!
05-15-2018, 01:43 PM
#6
Junior Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 8
I'm finally sending the superhawk in for cct replacement. For anyone who knocks the stock ccts, these have 44,000 on them. Just goes to show if you treat it good, it will return the favor. Thanks for the warm welcome back. Now it's time to get a group ride together Wolverine. Do they still do the breakfast run in Ephrata? Tim
05-15-2018, 04:53 PM
#9
Moderator
MotoGP
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 5,072
You both like living on the edge, huh?
Yep, first sunday of every month.
I'm finally sending the superhawk in for cct replacement. For anyone who knocks the stock ccts, these have 44,000 on them. Just goes to show if you treat it good, it will return the favor. Thanks for the warm welcome back. Now it's time to get a group ride together Wolverine. Do they still do the breakfast run in Ephrata? Tim
05-15-2018, 05:11 PM
#10
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
Some just dont get it.....Its not that the stock CCTs can not make it 40k miles, it is that some will not make it 10k, some 15k, some 20k.... there is no constant known "safe" min mileage or years in use.... So your right, they can last for many years and miles, or few years or few miles... which will yours be?
05-15-2018, 09:24 PM
#11
Senior Member
SuperBike
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,802
05-16-2018, 07:28 AM
#14
Banned
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lake View Terrace, CA
Posts: 5,942
and some of us have run over 100K miles with stock ACCTs and believe, like Roger D, that the stock units have a much worse reputation than they deserve.
I also agree with Roger that the average D.I.Y. mechanic should not install mccts unless they really know what they are doing as it is very easy to cause catastrophic damage if done wrong.
Another bit just FYI Mr Ditchfield added about MCCTs, Yes he uses them in the race bikes (if allowed) but he also stated that they were adjusted before every meeting. Not just put in and forgotten about.
Being around this forum for a while, I have heard of more engines being damaged from improper mcct installations (most don't even want to pull the front valve cover) than I have heard of auto ccts blowing, but that is just me.
I also take all the reports of failures as you only hear about failures. No one posts up when all is good. So yes there have been many reports of failures but how many are still out there running with no issues?
So with all that, no the stock auto units do not last forever.....though they don't blow up just by looking at them either.
In fact after doing more research, I am going back to auto units.
Why would one do that you ask....
While an auto unit is in operation it is not in a fixed position. It extends and contracts with throttle position.
This keeps constant tension on the chain. With a fixed tensioner the chain cycles loose and tight.
While this causes no issues with running, I have to wonder what extra wear this will cause.
As I have not seen a high mileage engine torn down after running mccts for an extended period, I can't say for sure what, if any, damage is happening.
The way I see it, yes the auto units do need to be replaced (though again there is an argument of what that interval actually is set at) and can be damaged with improper use. Though they also can last just fine,
Then because they are easier on the cam chains, not only should things last longer but you should also get more rear wheel HP due to less friction losses.
In the end, run whatever lets you sleep best at night, On a new to you bike they should be changed out (unless they are mccts and then they should be checked for proper installation)
I also agree with Roger that the average D.I.Y. mechanic should not install mccts unless they really know what they are doing as it is very easy to cause catastrophic damage if done wrong.
Another bit just FYI Mr Ditchfield added about MCCTs, Yes he uses them in the race bikes (if allowed) but he also stated that they were adjusted before every meeting. Not just put in and forgotten about.
Being around this forum for a while, I have heard of more engines being damaged from improper mcct installations (most don't even want to pull the front valve cover) than I have heard of auto ccts blowing, but that is just me.
I also take all the reports of failures as you only hear about failures. No one posts up when all is good. So yes there have been many reports of failures but how many are still out there running with no issues?
So with all that, no the stock auto units do not last forever.....though they don't blow up just by looking at them either.
In fact after doing more research, I am going back to auto units.
Why would one do that you ask....
While an auto unit is in operation it is not in a fixed position. It extends and contracts with throttle position.
This keeps constant tension on the chain. With a fixed tensioner the chain cycles loose and tight.
While this causes no issues with running, I have to wonder what extra wear this will cause.
As I have not seen a high mileage engine torn down after running mccts for an extended period, I can't say for sure what, if any, damage is happening.
The way I see it, yes the auto units do need to be replaced (though again there is an argument of what that interval actually is set at) and can be damaged with improper use. Though they also can last just fine,
Then because they are easier on the cam chains, not only should things last longer but you should also get more rear wheel HP due to less friction losses.
In the end, run whatever lets you sleep best at night, On a new to you bike they should be changed out (unless they are mccts and then they should be checked for proper installation)
05-16-2018, 07:01 PM
#18
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
Roger Ditchfield wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:43 pm Hi Guys,
The question of CCTs is multi-faceted and complex one and sadly there are no definitive answers. Here are my experiences for what they are worth!
All the Revolution Racing VTR1000f Firestorms (ST2 and ST3 raced using OEM CCTs without issue. As they were being raced also under the banner of Honda Britain and partially supported by HRC it would have been impossible to change them for an aftermarket product but we have allowed to modify the OEM part had we found it necessary. It must be remembered the engines were all brand new and were rebuilt after every BSB Supercup weekend. Also the engines were fired with the bike standing level on front and rear stands and subjected to a twenty minute warm up procedure from cold whereas street bikes tend to be fired up on the sidestand while the rider puts on his helmet and gloves before driving off.
My workshop experience of street VTRs CCTs is extremely varied. The highest mileage I have had to CCT failure was 97,000 miles on a bike used every day by a London courier. The lowest was less than 30 miles on a bike that had been run from new for two days after it had been stored for three years. I have had failures at every mileage in between! Therefore mileage is not a factor but types and regularity of usage possibly may be. I am always an advocate of Preventative Maintenance but in the case of CCTs I cannot give any sort of replacement schedule based on mileage.
Although all the Revolution Racing bikes of other models (R1s, R6s, CBR 900s, CBR 600, GSXR 6s and GSXR 1000) raced under our own banner used Manual CCTs I never felt comfortable in recommended their use by DIY riders. The reasoning for this is that setting up is “by ear”, feel and experience and these qualities often in short supply by private riders. The long term and extensive damage that can be caused by incorrect adjustment often outweighs the damage caused by CCT failure in the majority of cases. All our MCCTs were adjusted before every track appearance.
It cannot be denied that there is an issue with some OEM CCTs I believe that the fear of it is greater than the reality and there are relatively few major engine failures due to CCTs. I am therefore generally in favour of retaining the CCTs on normal mileage street bikes.
I am really sorry that I cannot give more definitive or less controversial advice based on known facts instead of opinion.
Good Luck guys
The question of CCTs is multi-faceted and complex one and sadly there are no definitive answers. Here are my experiences for what they are worth!
All the Revolution Racing VTR1000f Firestorms (ST2 and ST3 raced using OEM CCTs without issue. As they were being raced also under the banner of Honda Britain and partially supported by HRC it would have been impossible to change them for an aftermarket product but we have allowed to modify the OEM part had we found it necessary. It must be remembered the engines were all brand new and were rebuilt after every BSB Supercup weekend. Also the engines were fired with the bike standing level on front and rear stands and subjected to a twenty minute warm up procedure from cold whereas street bikes tend to be fired up on the sidestand while the rider puts on his helmet and gloves before driving off.
My workshop experience of street VTRs CCTs is extremely varied. The highest mileage I have had to CCT failure was 97,000 miles on a bike used every day by a London courier. The lowest was less than 30 miles on a bike that had been run from new for two days after it had been stored for three years. I have had failures at every mileage in between! Therefore mileage is not a factor but types and regularity of usage possibly may be. I am always an advocate of Preventative Maintenance but in the case of CCTs I cannot give any sort of replacement schedule based on mileage.
Although all the Revolution Racing bikes of other models (R1s, R6s, CBR 900s, CBR 600, GSXR 6s and GSXR 1000) raced under our own banner used Manual CCTs I never felt comfortable in recommended their use by DIY riders. The reasoning for this is that setting up is “by ear”, feel and experience and these qualities often in short supply by private riders. The long term and extensive damage that can be caused by incorrect adjustment often outweighs the damage caused by CCT failure in the majority of cases. All our MCCTs were adjusted before every track appearance.
It cannot be denied that there is an issue with some OEM CCTs I believe that the fear of it is greater than the reality and there are relatively few major engine failures due to CCTs. I am therefore generally in favour of retaining the CCTs on normal mileage street bikes.
I am really sorry that I cannot give more definitive or less controversial advice based on known facts instead of opinion.
Good Luck guys
05-29-2018, 11:44 AM
#22
Banned
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lake View Terrace, CA
Posts: 5,942
I never felt comfortable in recommended their use by DIY riders. The reasoning for this is that setting up is “by ear”, feel and experience and these qualities often in short supply by private riders. The long term and extensive damage that can be caused by incorrect adjustment often outweighs the damage caused by CCT failure in the majority of cases. All our MCCTs were adjusted before every track appearance.
It cannot be denied that there is an issue with some OEM CCTs I believe that the fear of it is greater than the reality and there are relatively few major engine failures due to CCTs. I am therefore generally in favour of retaining the CCTs on normal mileage street bikes.
So while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, in my opinion the whole ACCTs will explode just by looking at them is a way over blow notion.
Also by the way I read the previous statements it sounds to me the Roger D. also agrees that ACCTs are a fine option for a street bike.
05-29-2018, 01:05 PM
#23
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
I perhaps take what he wrote as saying it was not really researched at all..as he said using an MCCT was not allowed for sponsor reasons, and his motors were being torn down often..so longevity of the ACCT was not really something on the race bikes to even be a consideration or tested.
Others may ready the same quote from him and have a different takeaway.
I might read where he stated he had seen ACCTS fail in a few miles and go a long time, and my takeaway it supports my position, replace them for reliability reasons at least.. as the ACCT you have today may last the lifetime of the bike, but that lifetime may be 800 miles or 45,000 miles and you really do not have a say in which one yours will be.. Others might read the same passage from Roger and think it supports installing a new set of ACCT's never allowing the bike to idle on the side stand or sit for long periods not running with oil draining away from front acct, allowing for long ACCT service life....
As for His opinion " I never felt comfortable in recommended their use by DIY riders " I can only guess he meets a much less capable group of riders there in the UK as the install is pretty darn basic and can be done by most anyone willing to follow instructions. It is constantly the ones that take short cuts or use proven dicey methods to install that have issues with installing them.
So I posted a link that would all all to read what he did say, without filter or bias.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 05-29-2018 at 01:41 PM.
05-30-2018, 05:40 AM
#24
Senior Member
Back Marker
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Quincy Mass
Posts: 169
I have two questions...or inquiries..
If the person has a very good mechanical ability.. Installing high compression pistons...Stage two cams...etc, what would you say to him about MCCT's to ACCT's? And with these performance upgrades, which one would you advise to use? I am seriously looking at the flywheel upgrade as well, but I want to first just see what happens with the upgrades that I have done...OOPs...I let the cat out of the bag.
Secondly...I believe the cam chain tensioner fails...If it does fail... when the bike is under deacceleration. If any of these modification puts more stress to this situation...once again which CCT would you use?
Just asking....don't shoot the messenger...Thanks.
If the person has a very good mechanical ability.. Installing high compression pistons...Stage two cams...etc, what would you say to him about MCCT's to ACCT's? And with these performance upgrades, which one would you advise to use? I am seriously looking at the flywheel upgrade as well, but I want to first just see what happens with the upgrades that I have done...OOPs...I let the cat out of the bag.
Secondly...I believe the cam chain tensioner fails...If it does fail... when the bike is under deacceleration. If any of these modification puts more stress to this situation...once again which CCT would you use?
Just asking....don't shoot the messenger...Thanks.
05-30-2018, 09:53 AM
#25
Administrator
MotoGP
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,402
I have two questions...or inquiries..
If the person has a very good mechanical ability.. Installing high compression pistons...Stage two cams...etc, what would you say to him about MCCT's to ACCT's? And with these performance upgrades, which one would you advise to use? I am seriously looking at the flywheel upgrade as well, but I want to first just see what happens with the upgrades that I have done...OOPs...I let the cat out of the bag.
Secondly...I believe the cam chain tensioner fails...If it does fail... when the bike is under deacceleration. If any of these modification puts more stress to this situation...once again which CCT would you use?
Just asking....don't shoot the messenger...Thanks.
If the person has a very good mechanical ability.. Installing high compression pistons...Stage two cams...etc, what would you say to him about MCCT's to ACCT's? And with these performance upgrades, which one would you advise to use? I am seriously looking at the flywheel upgrade as well, but I want to first just see what happens with the upgrades that I have done...OOPs...I let the cat out of the bag.
Secondly...I believe the cam chain tensioner fails...If it does fail... when the bike is under deacceleration. If any of these modification puts more stress to this situation...once again which CCT would you use?
Just asking....don't shoot the messenger...Thanks.
Mine is MCCT, if the cams go out of time, its a sure bet you will loose valves at least...more if they come apart at speed.
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