nath981

The fred/nick way subscribes to the premise that the contact patch is larger at lean with force down through braking than without it. Coming to a stop at full lean in front of his students was freddie's way of demonstrating this principle. Another premise is that compressed suspension reduces wheelbase and alters geometry in ways that facilitate tighter turn-in. Given these considerations, it is understandable why they teach front/rear brake application anytime traction is compromised.

Then we have centrifugal and gyroscopic forces, air pressure, camber, road surface, debris, temperature, obstacles, etc., to throw into the mix. I'm not smart enough to figure all this out and maybe it doesn't matter............ unless you're riding on the street where 99% of the turns are blind, you ride faster than you can stop within your sight, and need every millisecond, skill set, and advantage possible to survive a miscalculation given the ever present guardrails, trees, poles, signs, oncoming traffic, etc. Where's Kevin Cameron when you need him. Aahhh forget it, I can even understand what he's saying half the time.

Moto Man

I think I have always used a mix front and rear and trailed off the front. I was never taught to do it or thought much about it. It just feels right to me. Also throw the engine braking capabilities of the superhawk (and how it loads the front) into the mix as well if you want to really want to analyze cornering on these bikes.

Hawkagain

I think you are misinterpreting what Keith Code was saying. He says that the total pie is divided between braking & cornering or accelerating & cornering. That is 100% true. Basic physics traction force + normal force = total force. It sounds like the Nick/Freddie are saying the pie is bigger when leaned over on the brakes. Probably, more weight means a higher normal force. I think their point is that most riders don't use 100% of the pie when a turn and their techniques may even increase the size of the pie.


[quote=nath981;242964]I submit that this newly espoused trail braking via the Yamaha Champions RS is a radical departure from the Keith Code tenets which many, if not most, followed for managing traction during turns. Code and others taught that lean in and braking forces are part of the same pie and that the more lean the less grip, and for the most part there is still some truth in this. However, there is much more to the story according to what I’m getting out of the Nick/Freddie approach:

1. Employing the rear brake before the front brakes reduces front end dive.
2. Utilizing the front brakes during lean actually increases the contact patch/grip, not the opposite, and therefore should be used in conjunction with lean.[quote=nath981;242964]

Keith Code doesn't say it decreases grip, he just says it gets split.

[quote=nath981;242964]
3. Front and rear brakes enable tighter turn-in because they favorably alter geometry by shortening the wheel base by virtue of the compressed suspension.
4. Using the rear brake when accelerating through and out of turns improves stability and grip.[quote=nath981;242964]

Sorry I don't see it, accelerating with the brakes on makes sense for EMC but not for the street rider.


5. Using the front brakes when accelerating through and out of turns increase grip.

What, taking weight off the rear helps you accelerate? I am assuming that you are not using the word "accelerating" in the physics sense.

[quote=nath981;242964]
I can tell you already from the month or so since I began practicing these techniques there will no longer be two rear tires for one front tire as per normal. With all these additional stressors, the front tire will definitely be wiped in conjunction with the rear. I will also have to replace the rear brake pads, which I’ve never replaced on any street bike previously. Finally, I will be going through front pads and rotors at an unprecedented rate as well as deglazing rotors and pads often(did it twice so far).
[quote=nath981;242964]

It sure sounds like you are riding too fast for the street. Street riding is about margin of error and the unexpected. The track is much more predictable and using all of the available traction makes more sense. Getting closer to 100% on the street is asking for trouble!

Stay safe

killer5280

You see the result of using up all of the traction pie (and then some) in nearly every roadrace; it's called the front tucking lowside.
Exploring the limits of trailbraking is a good thing, especially for high level racers. Doing too much of it on the street is a recipe for a crash.
Nick and Freddie haven't discovered anything new about the laws of physics.

nath981

yeah, I agree. I don't think Fred and N are redefining physics, although I probably wouldn't be able to tell if they were. LOL. I'm just trying to understand some riding techniques so that I don't repeat errors and maybe improve a little.

As mentioned earlier,the low side crash that took out my Hawk in 2001 was always a mystery that confounded me until i read Nick's descriptions. I'm always way smooth and try to avoid upsetting the chassis and I think that the being fluid on that day resulted in the perfect storm.

As I leaned into the turn and released the front brake and, as the forks were rebounding, added a little throttle thus shifting more weight off the front. That coupled with the speed and lean used up the total traction pie, all this very smooth and seamless and resulting in the lowside.

I wasn't even aware of this negative because i learned to add neutral throttle in order to level the suspension after releasing the front brakes; meanwhile, what was really happening was that releasing the brake in itself actually levels the suspension, without the need to add throttle. Then adding a little throttle lifts the front further.

Given the new info via N/F, I should have held onto the brake lightly as I added the neutral throttle, and the front would not have rebounded as much, maintaining the pressure necessary for increased traction/larger contact patch.

This is my take on it so far. I'm still learning, but it makes sense to me at this point. I've been trying to glance down at the plastic ties on the fork tubes to verify fork movement due to brake/throttle, but the light has to be right, and i have no definitive info on this yet.

slo1

A little late to the party, but some thoughts.

get Nicks book "Sport Riding Techniques". A great, and easy, read.

If you release the brakes "smoothly" there won't be much rebounding. "smooth" is like "gentle", very ambiguous and different for everyone.

Another tenent of Nick's school, Yamaha Champions, is NOT accelerating until the bike is aimed where you want to go. Hitting the apex does no good if the bike is not aimed right. Many riders apex and roll on to early, then end up to wide, thus necessitating another turn or more lean.

Ironically, they teach EARLIER braking (and trailing to the late apex), SLOWER corner speeds, and less lean angle. It is safer and results in faster lap times.

After 30+ years of riding, dozens of track days, 20+ years as an msf coach/trainer, my riding improved considerably after the first day. If you can afford it, take the class.

And, if you are riding fast enough on the street to loose the front end, you should get to the track, and slow down on the street

dale

nath981

I'd like very much to do the school, and the fact that, with all your experience/expertise, your riding improved considerably speaks to the significance of learning, practicing and implementing the Fred/Nick techniques. Given my income constraints, I won't be able to avail myself of this opportunity to improve my skills. I'm attempting the next best thing, i.e., learning through reading, previous experiences, and a measure of trial and error/calculated risk experimentation.

As far as the riding fast enough to lose the front end on the road, all i can say (with a respectful lowering of the head) is, "Lord, i apologize for that and all the........................................".

slo1

that was my best laugh all day, thanks

dale

nath981

I always preferred the front compression set on the lighter side for feel, but after reading Nick's training paper, I screwed a few more lines in. Since I always resisted leaned in braking, I never realized that if you bottomed out front suspension at lean, that the bike would stand up. I knew that if you bottomed out while straight up due to hard braking, front tire traction would be lost, but no experience with stand up during lean.

riding tomorrow, Yeah!

nath981

[QUOTE=Hawkagain;243496]I think you are misinterpreting what Keith Code was saying. He says that the total pie is divided between braking & cornering or accelerating & cornering. That is 100% true. Basic physics traction force + normal force = total force. It sounds like the Nick/Freddie are saying the pie is bigger when leaned over on the brakes. Probably, more weight means a higher normal force. I think their point is that most riders don't use 100% of the pie when a turn and their techniques may even increase the size of the pie.

I bought and have read Keith Code's first book and agree that there is only so much pie that can be used up before the **** hits the fan. I found this out several times the real way.

All the MSF schools and most or all of the rider schools, one of which i've attended and was qualified to race at the amateur level, teach similar to Code and Schwantz. The exceptions are the former Fred Spencer school and now the Yamaha Champ. School. run by Ienatsch.

For example, the new Cycle World(jan10)has an article on the Kevin Schwantz school, newly move to Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, in which there are some statements on teaching strategies. One quote is particularly telling: "Schwantz also urges students to get the throttle cracked open as soon as possible after releasing the brakes when entering a corner". This is the method I've been using for decades, and the one taught universally until I learned of fred/nick methods of trailbraking.

There is certainly a finite amount of traction, however the implications of this have translated over time into the belief that braking while leaned is basically something to be avoided, or used sparingly or as a last resort.

The Fred/Nick methods described earlier in this thread have added a whole new dimension in terms of how braking/leaning interface and my experiences during the past month or two of learning these methods have convinced me of they're value, esp. for street riding.

It's like someone said earlier, to paraphrase: once you learn these methods, there really is no other way. That said, This style of trailbraking is probably best taught to those who have been riding for a year or so because of the multitasking needed to maintain fluid/seamless operation of the controls.

nath981

I always try to report on things I learn for the purpose of reference, so that others may benefit from others' experiences, and so that threads may continue to evolve over time when and if there is additional information. I am honest with myself and am not afraid of how i am or will be perceived by others when I make mistakes because i know that we are all dumb-asses, the only difference being that some of us don't know it, refuse to believe it, and/or don't want to admit it.

Last year, after 4 decades of riding, i changed my riding method to trailbraking the Nick/Freddie style. I am starting to get fairly competent at this technique, and it has saved my *** a few times when i got into turns a little too hot, or had to change my line to avoid obstacles/debris. The good part is that now I most always have a couple fingers gently squeezing the front brake lever in corners, over hill tops, and anytime when I perceive possibilities of something or somebody entering my trajectory. I have mentioned this before, but the good part is that this method of trailbraking encourages faster corner speeds because of the added control; the bad part is that there is a tendency to use this extra capacity in blind corners as well............. not a good strategy for longevity, but very difficult to resist.

So that is one negative I was aware of ever since i began a year ago. The other one I just discovered today when i went well into the oncoming lane on a sharp downhill curve...WTF. Fortunately, no one there but me. Regardless, I need to analyze and understand this faux pas as a preventative measure so that i may live to ride another day.. Believe me when I tell you that it is depressing to think that i am still doing stupid **** like this after all the experience, effort and evolution i bring to the table in terms of street riding. This is not because i am a gifted rider, or have had lot of training, but more likely a result of perseverance and persistence and riding too fast for too long, and perhaps throw a lot of luck in there. This is the second time this year i skirted death. In the Spring, i slid through a stop sign onto a major highway because I approached the stop with a little too much exuberance and found myself in the middle of a lane strewn with gravel. Lesson learned, I hope.

Anyway, what do I learn from today's ****-up in an attempt to prevent a recurrence? Well i'm not sure. I was on the throttle and brake lightly coming down a fairly good grade as per my usual when I discovered I was approaching the curve with too much velocity. I squeezed the brake which, together with the downgrade, transferred enough of my body weight onto my hands in a way that I could not back off the throttle as I squeezed harder on the brake to no avail. "Oh what a feeling" as the song goes, when you go right into the middle of the oncoming lane knowing that a vehicle there and you bought the farm. I know, why throttle on a downgrade anyway? and there's likely some validity for this, esp on the street. I wouldn't mind so much if it were that simple for me, but what if this happened on level ground? Would sudden and severe breaking while on the throttle transfer enough weight onto the hands to have the same nullifying effect on the front brakes?

I gotta think about this one a lot before can figure out what I will learn in terms of the implications for trailbraking while on the throttle, esp since i have learned to love ride this way.

uchi

ive trailbraked on the street a few times but only because i was coming into a corner way too hot and couldnt bleed off the speed in time, for the most part i do it lightly just to practice it and my last track day i was doing it quite a bit more that i figured i would have

comedo

Dear Nath981,
Your #41 post was very interesting.
My background is similar to yours. I've been riding for more than forty years, I'm still trying to improve my riding technique and I realize there is still a lot to learn.
I had a similar experience in the Appalachians last month except that it involved a downhill left. I didn't push steer hard enough when I entered the turn. I had a "How will I explain this to my wife?" moment and braked lightly, relaxed my arms, leaned it more and looked at the exit. The failure to push steer was not my primary error. My primary error was forgetting what Ralph Bryans said long ago: "I only go fast when I know where the road goes." I had never ridden the road before and I didn't know where it went.
Same thing a few years ago, when I failed to see a sign warning of an upcoming stop. I went around the corner briskly, saw the stop sign, straightened up the bike, got hard on the brakes, crossed several lanes of a highway, went through a shallow ditch, up an embankment and fell over. Being T-boned by a car going 120 kph would not have been survivable.
I've found that it's not being unable to do the fancy stuff that gets me into trouble on the street. It's not doing the basic stuff that does it.
In regard to your most recent situation, I'd guess that your arms were stiff and you were putting equal pressure on both grips as you braced yourself while braking. It's very hard to get the bike to turn if your arms are stiff and so you went wide. I acknowledge that you're in the best position to analyze the cause of the incident. The good news is that coming up with a valid explanation is important to you. You'll figure it out. Ride safely and ride for a long time.

nath981

After a year or so of using this method, I really don't feel comfortable unless i am trail braking. Once you get used to it, you realize its value and become dependent on it. Using it with the throttle on is a little more intense and problems that you're not accustomed to can arise and ruin your day.

+1 thanks for the encouragement. I try to ride safely, but all it takes is one mistake. Admittedly, I don't like to cruise and if this was extent of motorcycling, I wouldn't be riding. I need to move rather briskly or I'll go to sleep.haha. Unfortunately, at this pace there's not much room for errors like the ones I relayed above.

A friend said i should have grabbed the clutch to nullify the throttle, but there ya go again, not enough time to correct when you're on the throttle down a hill. A little over a year of this rheostat trail braking and then this happens. Two things I know so far: one, I will not be on the throttle down a steep grade approaching a 15mph turn; and two, i will practice manipulating the controls with weight on the clip-ons. The second thing may help me understand exactly what happened so that I can refrain from being a dumb ***, at least in this way. haha

nath981

what i learned so far to avoid leaving my lane as in post #41:

1.downhill is a different ballgame in that speed increases exponentially, so slow the **** down!

2.keep weight off the clip-ons by mercilessly smashing your ***** into the tank as a body brake, flex thumb and little finger of throttle hand to exaggerate throttle and brake separation, and cover your back brake to soften front brake dive.

3.So far, these alterations are working well so i need to practice them until the neuro-pathways are established or until I find a flaw in one or more of these strategies.

VTRsurfer

Hey nath,
Get a Sargent seat and you won't be mercilessly smashing your ***** into your tank anymore.

nath981

yeah, I've heard nothing but positives about the sargent, but the OEM seat doesn't bother me, probably cause as my wife says to me often, "you're a hard ***".

Actually I wasn't complaining about smashing my ***** into the tank(guess I got hard ***** too....haha). Actually, I was intentionally using the tank to hold me back when going down a steep grade with a tight turn in order to keep upper body weight off the clip-ons so I could back off the throttle and increase braking simultaneously while leaning and countersteering.

Fatsteve

As Above i have never thought much about trailbraking , i have just always done it, on road and track, it just feels natural to me. But as far as engine braking in a corner goes it just not something i do at all. Throttle position is as important as the amount of brake that is used. My gas is never all the way off during cornering..... as we all should know it has a tendency to make the bike want to stand up and that is not what we want mid way through a corner. Thinking about what i actually do is hard because it has been automatic for so long..... but here goes .....coming into the breaking area im easing the brakes on then harder as im seting up for the corner,at the same time im also seting my body position (not really nessasary on the road).... as my lean becomes greater so my braking becomes less and my throttle position is neutral ie no engine braking effect at all and depending on the corner, having some positive throttle while still trailing the brakes has the effect of weighting the front ( better traction due to better contact patch)while also pulling the back down harder.... this aids stability and helps keep everything smooth. Coming through the apex of the corner im starting to roll the gas on and at the same time all front braking is now finished .... Thats about as simplified as i can make it as like i said i never even think about what im doing at the time, its full auto mode...... The other thing is counter steering which we all do weather on road or track, and its also largely an automatic thing we dont even think about, but at track speeds its much more pronounced when setting up for the corner or coming out on the gas and its what gets the attitude of our bike in the right shape...... damn hope you understand what im sayin here cos i suck at trying to explane stuff.
I dont honestly think i could ride any other way and to even try to would probably be very dangerous for me.
And please, my way of doing it works for me but may not be what others subscribe to, im sure everyone has a slightly different way of doing things.
The main thing is to ride within your means and if you want to go really fast.... GO TO A TRACK

nath981

That's pretty much what i've been doing for about the last year since I began to learn my interpretation of the Nick/Freddie rheostat style of trailbraking. I understand that you are probably exemplifying the ideal corner where everything is going well. In my case: no engine braking also; front brakes are on enough to compress front a hair to set contact patch and shorten geometry;and like you throttle is on more positive than neutral as front brakes are held.

When you say that letting off throttle stands the bike up, it seems opposite to me: if i need to back off throttle and squeeze more brake to tighten line, the bike doesn't stand up but drops in more; if i want to widen arc, I lighten brake pressure a hair(not release) or keep it steady and roll on more throttle which pushes the bike to the outside.

where you state that "all braking is now finished" as you start rolling on the gas out of the apex, i am still holding the brake as I roll on the throttle at least until the bike is straight up at which point i'll gently let off the throttle as a last or delayed afterthought.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, just offering my perceptions. You are the first person I've heard describe doing the throttle/brake thing like a rheostat, like one operation instead of separation of function. Smooth is the goal for me also so as not to upset stability of the chassis/suspension/tires.

I wish I could say I've been doing this for a long time, but wishings for fairies. The truth is that after riding for 40 freakin years the conventional way, I am thankful to now be learning this method as it adds a whole new dimension to negotiating turns on two wheels.

Fatsteve

To be honest i cant be sure exactly what i do as the whole operation is fully auto for me, even siting here thinking about it now has my mind boggled . But loosing all gas in a corner will cause some instability and tend to want to stand the bike up because your speed is decreasing somewhat and the natural thing is less lean. I just know that smooth is quick and that to much or to little gas will upset the flow . Makes me want to jump on my bike and take a quick spin and think about what i do while im doing it ..... only problem is that if i think to much about it I might stuff it up lol.
I think i will stick to full auto ....all this thinking about it makes my head hurt

RWhisen

I think I have an advantage over most guys who have ridden only street since I grew up riding motocross competitively. I have always used front/rear braking and throttle control to get the bike to do what I want it to. Nice to see that someone finally realizes that trailbraking isn't such a bad idea. Hate to think I've been doing it all wrong all these years on the street.

nath981

never did any motocross regretfully as I believe it is the one of the best places to learn all that a motorcycle is capable of and how best to manage these in a friendly environment. This is why I initially bought a dual sport and it has helped me to learn to feel more comfortable sliding.

I'm still not sure how to use the front brake so well on dirt/gravel/loose surfaces since i mainly teach myself and because i usually wipe out the front when I get aggressive with it on these surfaces. Consequently, I rely on the rear brake and the throttle to get me around turns and use the front brake rather judiciously for slowing while straight up.

Relative to my last excursion into the oncoming lane, I've altered things a bit by what i refer to as activating my thumb(flexing it on the underside of the throttle grip so i can drag the throttle back), ring and little fingers so that I am reminded that I need to be ready to separate braking and throttling(rolling throttle back while engaging more brake), all while maintaining light grip with still enough input to allow for countersteering. Gets complicated esp if you're distracted, fatigued, or otherwise unfocused. Anyway, I will continue disciplining myself to do this until it becomes muscle memory so that if i am distracted, it will still be carried out automatically.

salgeek

I can only speak for offroad. I use trailbraking to settle the rear suspension, provide traction control, and modulate power. It also allows me to walk the outside line in a corner with a tad more control.

nath981

are you talking about offroad as in track or dirt?

nath981

2 years of trail braking and i remember feeling like the author in the link below when i first started using it.

Soup :: Yamaha Champions School: Breaking Trail On Trail-Braking :: 06-15-2011

I always try to discipline myself to give something a good try in order minimize subjective skewing of the results and i did this with this riding technique as well.

I thought it would be appropriate to share a couple things I've experienced so that others might not have to learn the real way.

1)casually releasing the front brake with light throttle at respectable lean and speed is likely to result in a front tire slide that will pucker your *** right up, esp when you're only a bike length from the guard rail. The implications here are that braking at lean does indeed increase the front contact patch, enough so that merely letting off the brakes with neutral throttle can ruin your day. You can bet your posterior that I have been a little more judicious when releasing the brakes mid-turn from that point onward.

2)I mentioned this earlier i believe: running into the oncoming lane in a downhill hairpin is not difficult to do if you find yourself leaning one the bars hard enough to negate the ability to back off the throttle whilst compressing the brake lever. So while the throttle and brake are locked in a struggle against each other because all your weight is trying to hold your body back, slowing is no longer an option. My remedy for this is threefold: use core strength instead of arm bracing for support, rest one knee against T-Rex slider as a back-up support, and using one instead of two fingers(middle finger only) allows a little more independence of operation of throttle and brake while being forced forward.

Despite the above limitations, I still find that trailbraking front and rear brakes along with throttle actuation to nullify the abruptness of engine braking has become muscle memory and an indispensable technique for street riding IMO. I can't imagine riding without this strategy anymore, even though it is harder on brakes and front tires, which now are toast simultaneous to the rear.

VTRsurfer

nath, you are living proof that you can teach an old dog new tricks.

nath981

haha, but you have to have an old dog that wants to learn because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

93 ford van E-150......left foot on the brake, right foot on the gas goin to the store for milk, trying not to roll that sum bitch. Fun man.