nath981

I learned through the years that as Keith Code writes, there is a finite amt of traction to be divided between turning and braking:the more you lean the less you have left for braking. Consequently, this is how i rode and taught others the same. While this is definitely true, what I didn't know was that the amt of braking you can do at full lean is much greater than most of us previously thought. According to the article in CW, Freddie Spencer used to have students stand at the apex of a track turn, then at full lean, approach the group hard enough on the brakes to stop mid turn in front of them. So now, for me, everything is changed as I have been learning this new skill.

cliby

agree. another important point is being smooth and proper suspension setup. While you have to be a bit hamfisted to use so much force while leaned over that you lose the front, during a panic its easy to overdo it. Real important though is trail braking wheer you have weight on the front since before turn initiation, and so a stable chasis attitude vs. apply brakes mid corner after turn in. at that point you now how to deal with front end dive, upsetting the chasis, big weight shift to the front. So you now have lean, braking, AND additional weight being thrown to the front all at the same time and its easy to overwhelm the traction. Again, smoothness is key. Practicing it helps. Its just another skill to use - the mroe the better.

JDRiderCoach

Once you start effectively trailbraking, there really is no other way to execute a turn. Street or track matters not. It enhances stability and allows speed and line adjustments in the turn that can't be done otherwise. I'm no expert, but it sounds like there's a few misconceptions about it. In racing it may serve to allow later braking and higher entry speeds, but there's no need for all that drama on the street. Your braking before the turn anyway, so you just gradually let off the front brake as you approach the apex, rolling more throttle as you ease out the lever. The idea is if you judged your entry speed incorrectly, there's a chance to correct with a smooth, light squeeze on the lever, along with a corresponding adjustment of lean angle. In the MSF classes we don't teach this method. The class has you doing all your braking before the turn, completely releasing the brakes before initiating lean. This is fine for newbs but is totally dependant on your correct assesment of entry speed. Trail braking is more forgiving, letting you easily recover if you misjudged entry speed. I encourage everybody to master this technique.

jbaxx

Effective trailbraking will also transfer weight to the front end and if done properly, it increases traction and feel due to loading of the front tire - just don't overdo it. As said before, smoothness is the key.

nath981

I've been practicing trail braking since I read the article in CW and what I've found so far is that the good outweighs the bad.............. maybe. The bad is increased speed in turns including going faster into blind corners, not good, and increased wear on brakes, rotors, and front tires. The good: more traction, improved geometry allowing for increased turn-in, quicker reaction time, and more settled/balanced suspension.

There is undoubtedly lots of learning as well as unlearning to do for me. For example, throttle on while braking and using front and rear brake at lean, and learning to cope with the increased forces on the front. Feeding in throttle while braking requires focus and dexterity to keep things smooth contrary to my previous MO, that is finish braking before turn-in, and then add slight throttle to even out the suspension. It’s a whole new ball game now, a revolution of sorts.

Other considerations: front and rear brakes/rotors are going to be used up faster and may even require higher quality parts to withstand the additional forces of trail braking. Front tires are now going to wear out as fast as rears(in lieu of two rears per one front) because they are suffering more abuse as they are being forced into the road surface with more pressure as a result of braking at lean and higher corner speeds. If enough riders subscribe to this revolution in technique, there will be a natural stimulus package in the works for motorcycle parts suppliers and sellers.

killer5280

It has been a common practice by racers for at least two decades now. It's not that radical.

scatterbrained

What shocked me about that article is that there are riding schools that don't teach that technique. Trail braking, maintenance throttle and proper body/weight positioning are all crucial to good cornering technique.
here's a nice vid to give you an idea of what goes into getting through a corner properly........
http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/vi...file=rossi.flv
As for those who think you don't need it on the street, well, you just don't know what you don't know.

scatterbrained

I assure you that the stock SH components can handle it. My 91 GSXR handles it just fine. My 77 Honda handles it just fine. It's not a revolution in technique, my father was teaching it to me as a child, in the early 80s. It isn't taught on the street because most beginning riders lack the coordination. Beyond that most riders aren't interested enough in enhancing their skill beyond what gets them to bike night. Hell, many track day riders don't do it, but these are usually the ones who still upshift with their clutches so go figure.
Welcome to the world of advanced rider technique, this should allow you to find even more things to enjoy when on the bike.

scatterbrained

Your bike has more traction leaned over than it does upright. As the tire deforms in the corner the contact patch gets larger. It's just that you are using more traction due to the immense centrifugal forces acting on the tires. Therefore you still have to be cautious with the brakes and throttle.

RCVTR

SOP.

The bike is much easier to initiate a turn with a load on the front end. It's a standard part of smooth riding technique. I don't think I could ride by releasing the brake before initiating a turn. My brain doesn't work that way.

jbaxx

True. I can recall going on a group ride up Palomar and we were just riding at a moderate pace - no hard braking into the corners, just rolling out of the throttle and turning in. It was a lot harder to get up the mountain that day.

cliby

I read this and laughed. becuase late this summer I made a dedicated effort after reading something to try the 'other' way - all my braking straight up then off before turn in. It was very hard to go back to this method. It was a very technical track and to let off the brakes quickly, yet smoothly enough not to upset the chasis before turn in is a hard skill all by itself. Anyway, I found it interesting and its as you said, once you do it, going the other way is harder.

nath981

I submit that this newly espoused trail braking via the Yamaha Champions RS is a radical departure from the Keith Code tenets which many, if not most, followed for managing traction during turns. Code and others taught that lean in and braking forces are part of the same pie and that the more lean the less grip, and for the most part there is still some truth in this. However, there is much more to the story according to what I’m getting out of the Nick/Freddie approach:

1. Employing the rear brake before the front brakes reduces front end dive.
2. Utilizing the front brakes during lean actually increases the contact patch/grip, not the opposite, and therefore should be used in conjunction with lean.
3. Front and rear brakes enable tighter turn-in because they favorably alter geometry by shortening the wheel base by virtue of the compressed suspension.
4. Using the rear brake when accelerating through and out of turns improves stability and grip.
5. Using the front brakes when accelerating through and out of turns increase grip.

I can tell you already from the month or so since I began practicing these techniques there will no longer be two rear tires for one front tire as per normal. With all these additional stressors, the front tire will definitely be wiped in conjunction with the rear. I will also have to replace the rear brake pads, which I’ve never replaced on any street bike previously. Finally, I will be going through front pads and rotors at an unprecedented rate as well as deglazing rotors and pads often(did it twice so far).

Each of us can determine what is radical or not, but for me there is no doubt whatsoever that these techniques as well as the additional maintenance and costs are a significant departure from what I have experienced since I began riding. Enjoy the ride!

nath981

good read on the rationale for the freddie/nick style trail braking

http://www.safetycenter.navy.mil/med...side_line2.htm

nath981

Yeah scatterbrained, I got my hands full learning all this multitasking while dealing with the normal street obstacles. I like that Rossi video, but disagree with a statement he made elsewhere that it's not a street technique. To the contrary.

I think I'm starting to understand some things that may finally explain a high speed lowside crash I had in 02 that totaled my hawk and destroyed all my gear. I was on a sweet back road I took to work daily that summer and entering a RH turn, open view, no traffic, no debris, smooth pavement, 80+mph. Tires were well warmed and warn(204 dunlop OEM), I went down without notice and drama, like i suddenly hit ice. I did my usual procedure which I perfected over the years of releasing the brakes as I entered the turn, then adding some throttle to equal out the suspension as I continued through the turn. After reading the Nick Ienatsch military training info:

Let’s again study the rider who gets all his/her braking done before the turn-in. As the front brake is released, the fork springs rebound, putting the bike in the worst geometry to steer. As this rider works within this technique, he/she will attempt to turn the bike quicker and quicker, trying to make up for the extended steering geometry with more and more aggressive steering inputs. The faster they ride, the wider the bike wants to run through the corners, so the harder they’ll try to steer. This rider will be forced to use more and more lean angle in an effort to “scrub off” speed with the front tire. Aggressive steering inputs and lots of lean angle... a recipe for disaster.

I finally realize that by adding throttle as the fork springs rebound(from releasing the brakes as I turned in) was similar to hitting the brakes and then throttling up to wheelie, thus unweighting the front tire causing the loss of traction and resulting lowside. I have lowsided several times over the years, but always explainable as a result of debris or water, I thought. Now I wonder that I may have made it through some of those turns had I not compromised traction by unweighting the front tire. Whatever, better late than never.

cliby

its great stuff to read and practice. great riders can use either approach and make either work. I find it much easier to be smooth trailbraking for all the reasons noted above. I'm less convinced about keeping brakes on once you initiate much throttle - I think it depends on smoothness and fuel delivery. I have a rear engined car and trying to driving on track without trailbraking really points out the benefits of trailbraking in getting more weight on the front contact patches.
nice links

nath981

Yeah, holding the throttle on while braking lightly front and rear and seems to serve to stabilize the suspension a bit until you feel everything is under control at which point you let go gradually, which as you say translates into extreme smoothness. Seems right after you do it for a while, but at first feels weird.

Somewhere I read the rheostat analogy to describe how smoothly these manipulations are meted out and that's how I'm trying to implement them.

The problem I had with the brake judder/shanghai rotors scared the bejesus out of me when the front brake grabbed momentarily and slid the front tire while leaned in on an off-camber turn. Glad I got it squared away so far.

NVDutchie

Confidence-experience-knowing your bike etc. = smoothness & control , 100% of my braking is done with the front only because that is what I prefer ... but guys if you have a chance to take it to the track do so
then you will to get to know your bike and your limitations , hopefully you can find a place that will have instructors on site to guide you and answer questions.
my .02

nath981

You are totally correct-the track is the greatest place to learn to manage your bike indeed. In my case, I'm fairly skilled now and well should be after 4.5 decades of riding, road racing, dirt riding, and drag racing. I've been down at least 9 times I can remember, some with injuries, and have logged many miles on the streets. I am definitely lucky to have made it this far and I try to remember this each time I prepare to ride.

The track is the safe place to ride for many obvious reasons, however it's not readily accessible to many of us, and if it were, not an option I would choose most often. Street riding can happen whenever convenient, can vary,and is more of a solitary pursuit between me and me. Naturally, street riding is the most dangerous form of riding by far, with the possible exception of the IOM.

I am learning Freddie Spencer techniques put forth by Nick Ienatsch most recently in the Yamaha Champions Riding School. Basically, these techniques utilize both brakes much more extensively than most street riders typically do. The purpose is to provide more and better control with less lean angle, yet enabling turns with the same or increased speed. The question of increased safety may be a little more complex and may be affected by whether you choose to use the techniques to increase your speed or to ride the same with the additional controls thereby being safer. That said, you know what many of us will likely choose to do.

jay956

+1 nath, the more track days i do, the more i realize how dangerous the street is

scatterbrained

I recommend learning to use the rear effectively. If you're not using the rear you're not riding right in my opinion. The rear brake is a vital instrument to good chassis control as well as smooth braking. If the rear brake wasn't important Mick Doohan wouldn't have has a thumb brake mounted when he damaged his right leg.
If you feel the rear is too grabby you can adjust the lever. You don't want to be able to lock up easily.

RCVTR

I'm off the brake by the time I'm at full lean. If you need all of the available traction for cornering, you beter be off the brake. It's a transition from full braking to full cornering.

This is completely different from realizing that you have too much speed going in to the corner and grabbing more brake. That's a good way to end up on your ear.

Also, if you are using all of your front brake, the rear wheel is losing contact with the ground. Using the rear brake is touchy and another thing to process while riding. It's ok on the street, because you never really use all of the brake on the street. On the track, it's a different story. That's the first thing I was coached on, my first track day. I was using the rear excessively and was warned of the hazard and advised not to use it at all. Racers use it to aid the weight transfer, early in the braking process and to keep the front wheel down accelerating hard off the corner, but never during full braking.