waited too long
01-06-2011 | 04:10 AM
#151
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Determining the shims you need to purchase was a little confusing until I got a system and this helped a lot, but I'm slow. It took me a while.
first valve adjustment @25,000miles:
I wanted to do the rear first, and then move the crank around and do the front. As it turned out, I still need one shim for the rear... Had to order it from honda ($9)....so I put the old one back in temporarily so I could put the cams and sprockets/chain back in. Then the crank could be moved around for FTDC so i could find out what shims I needed for the front cylinder. But of course, somehow the the sprockets moved a little bit despite having them tied and paint marked, so I had to remove the CCT to take off enough tension so the chain could be pulled up to allow the sprockets to be rotated into alignment, i.e., TDC_ on the crank and the RE and RI lines even with the outer edges of the cylinder top edge.PIA
A word about shims. I was going to order a Hot Cams kit for $90 plus ship, thinking that I would have a selection to finish the job and not have to go running around and leave freakin parts all over the garage. Am I glad i didn't get the kit because I never would have known that they only come in increments of 5 mm instead of 2.5mm as Honda. All the motorcycle shops seem to have the Hot Cams shims. As it turned out, I only could use 4 Hot Cams shims and had to order the other 4 from Honda.
this is stupid: 175(1.75mm), 180. 185, 190 , etc. Hot Cams
175, 177.5(1.7750mm), 180, 182.5, 185, etc. Honda shims
The intakes are supposed to be .006 in+-.001, Exhausts .012 in+-1. My plan was to go for the +1, that is .007 Intake, .013 Exhaust so that they would be in spec much longer given that the tend to tighten over time and miles.
It turns out that all the Intakes were at .005in except one which was .006in. and all the exhausts were at .010in. Someone did a pretty good job setting them anyway.
All the shims i removed were different:200 178 208 182 175 198 180 205. As you can see, only 4 of these are even in terms of increments of 5, so that shows that the Hot cams deal is not gonna get it unless for divine intervention or unless you are willing to make them work by the +- tolerance.
Anyway, what i did to get to my +1 goal was to calculate the the increase needed in clearance,
subtract that amount from the removed shim and this tells you the shim you have to purchase. Of course you need to change inches to mm, so i used google fro the conversion numbers. For example, the exhaust was at .010in and i wanted to get to .013in(+1). So google ".003in to mm" and it replies ".003in=0.0762mm". So now you want to deduct this amt from the shim you removed. So I took a 182 shim out of the Exhaust and wanted to make it thinner by .003in or 0.0762mm.
1.8200mm
-0.0762mm(minus .003in to increase clearance from .010in to .013in or +1(in spec)
1.7438mm or 1.75mm(175 shim)
So that's how I computed all of them. It's easy if you just goggle .001,.002,.003 inches to mm, get those numbers and then subtract from shims you want to change.
After I get all the shims from honda, I'll put them in and post the actual clearances I end up.
Sorry for the laborious bullshit, but maybe it'll be easier for another first timer to get through.
first valve adjustment @25,000miles:
I wanted to do the rear first, and then move the crank around and do the front. As it turned out, I still need one shim for the rear... Had to order it from honda ($9)....so I put the old one back in temporarily so I could put the cams and sprockets/chain back in. Then the crank could be moved around for FTDC so i could find out what shims I needed for the front cylinder. But of course, somehow the the sprockets moved a little bit despite having them tied and paint marked, so I had to remove the CCT to take off enough tension so the chain could be pulled up to allow the sprockets to be rotated into alignment, i.e., TDC_ on the crank and the RE and RI lines even with the outer edges of the cylinder top edge.PIA
A word about shims. I was going to order a Hot Cams kit for $90 plus ship, thinking that I would have a selection to finish the job and not have to go running around and leave freakin parts all over the garage. Am I glad i didn't get the kit because I never would have known that they only come in increments of 5 mm instead of 2.5mm as Honda. All the motorcycle shops seem to have the Hot Cams shims. As it turned out, I only could use 4 Hot Cams shims and had to order the other 4 from Honda.
this is stupid: 175(1.75mm), 180. 185, 190 , etc. Hot Cams
175, 177.5(1.7750mm), 180, 182.5, 185, etc. Honda shims
The intakes are supposed to be .006 in+-.001, Exhausts .012 in+-1. My plan was to go for the +1, that is .007 Intake, .013 Exhaust so that they would be in spec much longer given that the tend to tighten over time and miles.
It turns out that all the Intakes were at .005in except one which was .006in. and all the exhausts were at .010in. Someone did a pretty good job setting them anyway.
All the shims i removed were different:200 178 208 182 175 198 180 205. As you can see, only 4 of these are even in terms of increments of 5, so that shows that the Hot cams deal is not gonna get it unless for divine intervention or unless you are willing to make them work by the +- tolerance.
Anyway, what i did to get to my +1 goal was to calculate the the increase needed in clearance,
subtract that amount from the removed shim and this tells you the shim you have to purchase. Of course you need to change inches to mm, so i used google fro the conversion numbers. For example, the exhaust was at .010in and i wanted to get to .013in(+1). So google ".003in to mm" and it replies ".003in=0.0762mm". So now you want to deduct this amt from the shim you removed. So I took a 182 shim out of the Exhaust and wanted to make it thinner by .003in or 0.0762mm.
1.8200mm
-0.0762mm(minus .003in to increase clearance from .010in to .013in or +1(in spec)
1.7438mm or 1.75mm(175 shim)
So that's how I computed all of them. It's easy if you just goggle .001,.002,.003 inches to mm, get those numbers and then subtract from shims you want to change.
After I get all the shims from honda, I'll put them in and post the actual clearances I end up.
Sorry for the laborious bullshit, but maybe it'll be easier for another first timer to get through.
You mean to tell me that you measure the tolerance in inches, and the shims in mm and convert all of it and do math?! I'm sorry nath, but I really can't come up with another word to describe that than "stupid"... Believe me, I tried to find a nicer one...
Why not make your life a whole lot easier, look in the service manual for the tolerance spec in mm, then measure the whole thing in mm?!
And don't say, "becuase it's hard to think in metric", If I can get along with your wierd system at times, you can make do with metric at times... It's based on your ten fingers, so unless you have chopped one off for what-ever reason, you have a cheatsheet with you at all times...
Spec is 0.16 mm on the intake and 0.31 mm on the exhaust... +/-.3 mm... And you got it all wrong on the metric denominations on the shims... it's not 2.5 or 5 mm ... That would mean that each shim was .1 inch thicker (2.5 mm) or .2 inch thicker (5 mm)... And in that case the whole shim kit would consist of one size or possibly two for the Honda one...
The shims are spaced at 0.05 mm in the hotcams and 0.025 mm in the Honda range... Which is in the 0.001 inch increments or 0.0001 increments... A whole different ballgame...
Sorry if I'm a bit rough, but either get it right or don't go preaching... My opinion is still to do it in mm... Based on the fact that the parts are manufactured and spec'ed in mm... That makes it both a source of annoyance, complication and numberfudging to start converting back and forth...
01-06-2011 | 04:15 AM
#152
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Oh, BTW you are aware that google's conversions are off by as much as 0.0001 inch at some times too? Meaning you could end up needing a size larger or smaller shim if you are really unlucky? Conversions are not a good thing when working with that small tolerances... Especially if you rounded some numbers off too, then it get's really fun...
01-06-2011 | 04:38 AM
#153
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Joined: Jun 2005
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From: San Antonio, TX
I have a question about valve wear. A comment was made earlier that all the valves wear into to seats over time, causing decreased clearance.
Years ago it was presented to me that this is true of the intake valves, whereas exhaust valves generally have increased lash over time due to carbon buildup. This is the reason why sometimes you get lucky and can just swap shims between valves.
I have not really discussed this much and would like opinions on the matter.
Years ago it was presented to me that this is true of the intake valves, whereas exhaust valves generally have increased lash over time due to carbon buildup. This is the reason why sometimes you get lucky and can just swap shims between valves.
I have not really discussed this much and would like opinions on the matter.
01-06-2011 | 04:49 AM
#154
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Posts: 2,934
From: altoona, pa
A big +1. However it seems like nath has this taken care of now
But for future reference, it's quite common (with timing belts at least) on car engines for the marks to end up 1 tooth off after rotating the crank through a 4 stroke cycle. Then you have to move it 1 tooth on the cam sprocket to get it right, then rotate 2 revs of the crank and check it again. Always double or triple check before buttoning it up.
Oh, and have any of those batteries popped yet?
But for future reference, it's quite common (with timing belts at least) on car engines for the marks to end up 1 tooth off after rotating the crank through a 4 stroke cycle. Then you have to move it 1 tooth on the cam sprocket to get it right, then rotate 2 revs of the crank and check it again. Always double or triple check before buttoning it up.
Oh, and have any of those batteries popped yet?
Chain jumping teeth; I can't understand how and if this really happened given they were tied together. The other possibility may be that the sprocket/chain held fast, but that the chain jumped teeth below at the crank sprocket. I guess I won't know if the engine is out of time until I get it running. If it is, it appears at least that both cylinders are operating in unison judging by the sprocket markings/positions at their respective TDCs. I only moved the rear sprockets one link clockwise, but can verify anything since my paint marks disappeared. rot roe! dumb ***!
01-06-2011 | 05:18 AM
#155
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Posts: 2,934
From: altoona, pa
Oh, BTW you are aware that google's conversions are off by as much as 0.0001 inch at some times too? Meaning you could end up needing a size larger or smaller shim if you are really unlucky? Conversions are not a good thing when working with that small tolerances... Especially if you rounded some numbers off too, then it get's really fun...
The other problem is that i have no micrometer i can use(the one i have is from my dad's machinist tools from the 40's. It's a really nice new Lufkin that's in a neat little wooden box with a sliding top. It has the price written on the top of the box. $10.00 haha). haven't figured it out yet. scary numbers on there.
And when I took my shims to the shop, their digital mic didn't come out with consistent measurements. Like it was showing that my 208 was 207 something, but yet it didn't look worn and I can't think that by the looks of it, that it would be that much. So you see, it looks like a game of approximations for me and trying to head for one over on both intakes and exhausts might get me who knows where. This, along with the with the timing issue, might be enough justification for just parting this thing out, esp since i have parts lying all over the garage already. Ah oh, shouldn't have said that. Now we'll be hearing from all the vultures. haha
01-06-2011 | 06:20 AM
#156
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
shut up tweety. I can't even count that many zeros w/o my eyes gettin blurry. what's wrong with you? do you wanna make my head hurt? haha.
The other problem is that i have no micrometer i can use(the one i have is from my dad's machinist tools from the 40's. It's a really nice new Lufkin that's in a neat little wooden box with a sliding top. It has the price written on the top of the box. $10.00 haha). haven't figured it out yet. scary numbers on there.
And when I took my shims to the shop, their digital mic didn't come out with consistent measurements. Like it was showing that my 208 was 207 something, but yet it didn't look worn and I can't think that by the looks of it, that it would be that much. So you see, it looks like a game of approximations for me and trying to head for one over on both intakes and exhausts might get me who knows where. This, along with the with the timing issue, might be enough justification for just parting this thing out, esp since i have parts lying all over the garage already. Ah oh, shouldn't have said that. Now we'll be hearing from all the vultures. haha
The other problem is that i have no micrometer i can use(the one i have is from my dad's machinist tools from the 40's. It's a really nice new Lufkin that's in a neat little wooden box with a sliding top. It has the price written on the top of the box. $10.00 haha). haven't figured it out yet. scary numbers on there.
And when I took my shims to the shop, their digital mic didn't come out with consistent measurements. Like it was showing that my 208 was 207 something, but yet it didn't look worn and I can't think that by the looks of it, that it would be that much. So you see, it looks like a game of approximations for me and trying to head for one over on both intakes and exhausts might get me who knows where. This, along with the with the timing issue, might be enough justification for just parting this thing out, esp since i have parts lying all over the garage already. Ah oh, shouldn't have said that. Now we'll be hearing from all the vultures. haha
Conversions add 2-3 decimals at the end of each number, since they aren't direct equivalents... = Guessing game...
The parts, ie the shims are manufactured to mm spec, ie no dang inch instrument will ever give you meaningfull numbers... = Guessing game...
An inch as the base for measurements is substantially larger than one mm... So however you reason around it, it will always mean you get .0000 of something in inches and .0 something in mm... It's just easier to understand the numbers and what they mean in reference to each other if you have less decimals... = Guessing game...
Granted, you have to use your fingers a bit more than me to get the actual numbers, but since you have ten of them, not twenty or so, it should still be easier that way, than for me trying to count out parts of inches on my fingers...
208 what? if it's marked with 208 etched on it, that should mean 2.08 mm and if you measure it out to 2.07 something, it should mean let's say 2.078 or 2.079 or 2.077 mm... Which converted to inches means it's a difference of 0.0001x something inches... Or around half a hairs width... (yes really, an average hair is around .0004 inches thick) so what that means was that it was probably either on the low side of manufacturing tolerances or very slightly worn... Ie the measurement was very consistent... It was your preconception of "how much" based on thinking in inches that had you stumbling... Is 0.0001x inches "much"? I'd say that kind of wear would be very hard to tell by eye...
Have you ever tried using inch sized wrenches on mm sized bolt heads? If you have, you will know that the likely result is busted bolt head, busted knuckle or both... The right tools make it considerably easier... Same goes for this...
Last edited by Tweety; 01-06-2011 at 06:25 AM.
01-06-2011 | 06:22 AM
#157
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Btw, if it's in inches or mm or even feet, that micrometer should work the same... first ring (larger markings) means the first number, and then it goes along the scale... Each consecutive smaller marking gives you the next decimal...
01-06-2011 | 09:01 AM
#158
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,934
From: altoona, pa
yeah you're right. the metric system rocks. They threatened to change over a few years back but the corporations who run our pretend democracy must have determined that it's more profitable to maintain the present state of chaotic confusion.
Several years ago I started a one man metric revolution and went out looking for an 863.6mm belt to hold my pants up. Instead i came home with a 24' ratchet strap wrapped around me 8.47029 times. I scratched the hell out of the car getting in and out and ****, and eventually pissed myself, trying to get my pants undone. Now I'm permanently scarred from this experience and that's my excuse.
Several years ago I started a one man metric revolution and went out looking for an 863.6mm belt to hold my pants up. Instead i came home with a 24' ratchet strap wrapped around me 8.47029 times. I scratched the hell out of the car getting in and out and ****, and eventually pissed myself, trying to get my pants undone. Now I'm permanently scarred from this experience and that's my excuse.
01-06-2011 | 10:09 AM
#159
Banned
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
The trick is to slow down the front slide a bit. I covered it all in a carb set up thread once before but it might be hard to find in a search.
So when i have some time I guess I write up how I set up carbs & why.
01-06-2011 | 10:17 AM
#160
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 3,451
From: San Clemente, CA
Most Americans are too stupid to handle a change to the metric system. You can only imagine the problems I had with students looking up specs when the specs were given in mm or Nm.
For example if a valve adjustment spec was .31mm, they would adjust the lash to .031", when it should be .012". And of course the feeler gauges had both metric and standard markings.
Here in California back in 1979, they tried posting dual speed limit signs on portions of freeways in Central California to see how it would go:
Speed limit = 55 MPH / 90 KPH, with the metric speed printed below the standard speed.
The CHP had a nightmare. When they would pull someone over for doing 90 MPH, the driver would say, "But the sign said the speed limit is 90". The CHP would explain that was kilometers per hour, and the driver would say, "What's a kilometer?". They gave it up after about 6 months.
For example if a valve adjustment spec was .31mm, they would adjust the lash to .031", when it should be .012". And of course the feeler gauges had both metric and standard markings.
Here in California back in 1979, they tried posting dual speed limit signs on portions of freeways in Central California to see how it would go:
Speed limit = 55 MPH / 90 KPH, with the metric speed printed below the standard speed.
The CHP had a nightmare. When they would pull someone over for doing 90 MPH, the driver would say, "But the sign said the speed limit is 90". The CHP would explain that was kilometers per hour, and the driver would say, "What's a kilometer?". They gave it up after about 6 months.
Last edited by VTRsurfer; 01-06-2011 at 10:20 AM.
01-06-2011 | 11:29 AM
#161
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Actually I'm trying not to not drag this thread farther off topic. It is a valve adjustment thread, not a carb thread.
The trick is to slow down the front slide a bit. I covered it all in a carb set up thread once before but it might be hard to find in a search.
So when i have some time I guess I write up how I set up carbs & why.
The trick is to slow down the front slide a bit. I covered it all in a carb set up thread once before but it might be hard to find in a search.
So when i have some time I guess I write up how I set up carbs & why.
I may do a search later today, cause I tend to find other interesting stuff that way anyway...
01-06-2011 | 11:37 AM
#162
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Most Americans are too stupid to handle a change to the metric system. You can only imagine the problems I had with students looking up specs when the specs were given in mm or Nm.
For example if a valve adjustment spec was .31mm, they would adjust the lash to .031", when it should be .012". And of course the feeler gauges had both metric and standard markings.
Here in California back in 1979, they tried posting dual speed limit signs on portions of freeways in Central California to see how it would go:
Speed limit = 55 MPH / 90 KPH, with the metric speed printed below the standard speed.
The CHP had a nightmare. When they would pull someone over for doing 90 MPH, the driver would say, "But the sign said the speed limit is 90". The CHP would explain that was kilometers per hour, and the driver would say, "What's a kilometer?". They gave it up after about 6 months.
For example if a valve adjustment spec was .31mm, they would adjust the lash to .031", when it should be .012". And of course the feeler gauges had both metric and standard markings.
Here in California back in 1979, they tried posting dual speed limit signs on portions of freeways in Central California to see how it would go:
Speed limit = 55 MPH / 90 KPH, with the metric speed printed below the standard speed.
The CHP had a nightmare. When they would pull someone over for doing 90 MPH, the driver would say, "But the sign said the speed limit is 90". The CHP would explain that was kilometers per hour, and the driver would say, "What's a kilometer?". They gave it up after about 6 months.
I think speed limits would be one of the easier to change...
There would be so many logistical nightmares trying to get an entire system to switch. All of our shipping, pricing, meters, sensors, warehouse sizing, waterflow measurements, bills, paper (could you imagine trying to phase in a new paper size?) envelopes, and I'm sure I've just touched the surface. I'd imagine it would be very costly (not just stubborn) to try to figure this one out. I handle metrics when working on the bike and when dealing with overseas customers and have no problem making mental estimates of conversion if I need. I'm not so sure a world standard in anything is all pros without cons anyway... we'd lose some cool languages that way..
But, I'm perpetuating another thread jacking...
01-06-2011 | 11:43 AM
#163
Out of my mind, back in 5
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From: Skurup, Sweden
I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole...
I just have a question... Why should you guys be spared from the confusion you are responsible for creating, huh?
The rest of the world have to live with the allmighty inch based system alongside the one we understand (ie metric) in just about any field, on a daily basis just because you preferred it long ago, so why should you be spared figuring out our system?
Last edited by Tweety; 01-06-2011 at 01:34 PM.
01-06-2011 | 01:19 PM
#164
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From: Phoenix, AZ
01-06-2011 | 02:08 PM
#165
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From: altoona, pa
01-06-2011 | 02:57 PM
#166
Out of my mind, back in 5
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From: Skurup, Sweden
What, you don't think I picked that exact quote on purpose?!
like I could help myself...
01-06-2011 | 03:07 PM
#167
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From: San Antonio, TX
You are all missing the REAL reason why the OTHER countries choose to NOT use OUR standard of measure. Simple really... all the other countries of the world wanted to make their stuff look bigger on paper, so they came up with smaller units of measure in order to accomplish this goal. That way they could at least try to FEEL as big as our country is. It's a huge conspiracy dating way back.
01-06-2011 | 05:20 PM
#168
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From: altoona, pa
i know you can't help yourself, probably the result of trying to treat your OCMD with steroids and crystal meth.
you are definitely incorrigible! but it's a good incorrigible>
" i wouldn't touch that one with a 3 meter stick" (****, that doesn't sound right),
01-06-2011 | 05:27 PM
#169
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From: altoona, pa
You are all missing the REAL reason why the OTHER countries choose to NOT use OUR standard of measure. Simple really... all the other countries of the world wanted to make their stuff look bigger on paper, so they came up with smaller units of measure in order to accomplish this goal. That way they could at least try to FEEL as big as our country is. It's a huge conspiracy dating way back.
01-06-2011 | 05:52 PM
#170
Out of my mind, back in 5
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From: Skurup, Sweden
Meh... I'm happy either way...
I'm just a bit argumentative since it's friggin snowing again... And it's already about a foot of white stuff on top of the foot and a half of frosen solid greyish stuff underneath... And according to the somewhat attractive weathergirl (Who I'd still shoot, messanger and whatnot) it's going to be about half a foot more before it stops...
I want to ride my bike...
01-06-2011 | 06:13 PM
#171
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From: altoona, pa
Nah, it doesn't...
Meh... I'm happy either way...
I'm just a bit argumentative since it's friggin snowing again... And it's already about a foot of white stuff on top of the foot and a half of frosen solid greyish stuff underneath... And according to the somewhat attractive weathergirl (Who I'd still shoot, messanger and whatnot) it's going to be about half a foot more before it stops...
I want to ride my bike...
Meh... I'm happy either way...
I'm just a bit argumentative since it's friggin snowing again... And it's already about a foot of white stuff on top of the foot and a half of frosen solid greyish stuff underneath... And according to the somewhat attractive weathergirl (Who I'd still shoot, messanger and whatnot) it's going to be about half a foot more before it stops...
I want to ride my bike...
You could always get a dual sport and set it up with a front ski and a rear track if you can ride it around close to your house, or you need to haul it.
01-06-2011 | 06:47 PM
#172
Out of my mind, back in 5
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From: Skurup, Sweden
I have a Cagiva Elephant 750 to play with and a couple of two strokes for playing in the snow/forest... And one or two sleds if it gets really bad... But it's not the same...
BTW the Cagiva is not for sliding around in the snow... It's a big heavy beast that demands respect, but given a clear gravel road it hauls ***...
BTW the Cagiva is not for sliding around in the snow... It's a big heavy beast that demands respect, but given a clear gravel road it hauls ***...
01-06-2011 | 07:34 PM
#173
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From: altoona, pa
I have a Cagiva Elephant 750 to play with and a couple of two strokes for playing in the snow/forest... And one or two sleds if it gets really bad... But it's not the same...
BTW the Cagiva is not for sliding around in the snow... It's a big heavy beast that demands respect, but given a clear gravel road it hauls ***...
BTW the Cagiva is not for sliding around in the snow... It's a big heavy beast that demands respect, but given a clear gravel road it hauls ***...
Hey, I figured out how to read my dad's micrometer. It's maxed out at an inch and all thousandths up to that point. Thanks.
01-07-2011 | 03:17 AM
#174
Out of my mind, back in 5
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From: Skurup, Sweden
yeah i know about heavy, they don't call the XR BRP(big red pig) for nothing. That's the biggest thing about riding in the snow or anywhere else where your gonna fall off a lot. Try to pick it up in the snow and it slides until you get it against something like a curb. If you're in the woods, on a hill, in the mud, or stuck in clay, by the time you get it out a time or two, you're out of steam. Better off with something closer to 200 than closer to 400. But i believe the Cagiva's heavier yet, but yeah fun on crappy roads and fire trails. Definitely can scare the **** out of yourself.
Hey, I figured out how to read my dad's micrometer. It's maxed out at an inch and all thousandths up to that point. Thanks.
Hey, I figured out how to read my dad's micrometer. It's maxed out at an inch and all thousandths up to that point. Thanks.
And there is a reason the Cagiva was named "Elephant" from the factory... But it's fun...Good thing on the micrometer, it's a very useful tool...
01-07-2011 | 07:47 AM
#175
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From: altoona, pa
yeah the micrometer is definitely a cool tool. I measured the shims removed and they were all still accurate(despite the suzuki parts guy saying one registered a bit under- i say poor measurement), no wear at 25,000 miles, I mean 40,233.6 kilometers. Hope my patent pending battery shims hold up as well.haha , I mean , ha ha`.
So, good shims means all the valve clearances taken before shim removal are accurate, ergo, the new shims ordered should put all the valves where i want them. We'll see about that shortly.
As I said before, I'm glad I didn't order the $90+ Hot Cams kit because i would have been aggravated to discover that i would have only been able to use a few of them.
This leads me to believe that most users of these kits are either lottery lucky or are willing to accept sloppy clearances. I don't understand it. I am gonna call Hot Cams a little later when Iowa time catches up just to satisfy my curiosity. Betcha Honda likes it though cause they are making money, at least on those of us who want closer valve tolerances.huh.
01-07-2011 | 10:51 AM
#176
Banned
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 5,942
From: Lake View Terrace, CA
I have a question about valve wear. A comment was made earlier that all the valves wear into to seats over time, causing decreased clearance.
Years ago it was presented to me that this is true of the intake valves, whereas exhaust valves generally have increased lash over time due to carbon buildup. This is the reason why sometimes you get lucky and can just swap shims between valves.
I have not really discussed this much and would like opinions on the matter.
Years ago it was presented to me that this is true of the intake valves, whereas exhaust valves generally have increased lash over time due to carbon buildup. This is the reason why sometimes you get lucky and can just swap shims between valves.
I have not really discussed this much and would like opinions on the matter.
Umm the only way the valve lash could increase due to carbon build up would be if you had enough carbon to actually hold the valve off its seat.
At that point you would have bigger issues than loose valve clearances.
01-07-2011 | 11:31 AM
#177
Thread Starter
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,934
From: altoona, pa
Well as no one else has wanted to touch this one.....
Umm the only way the valve lash could increase due to carbon build up would be if you had enough carbon to actually hold the valve off its seat.
At that point you would have bigger issues than loose valve clearances.
Umm the only way the valve lash could increase due to carbon build up would be if you had enough carbon to actually hold the valve off its seat.
At that point you would have bigger issues than loose valve clearances.
By the way, I just got off the phone with Hot Cams, i.e., that is the **** site for awakening latent sexual desires. You want to get your carbon blown out? here ya go.
Anyway, I asked them why only increments of five. He said what i thought, that there only goal was to get into spec, not to land on a particular clearance value. So fives can get you into +- spec, which I haven't computed on mine because i'm not really interested in disparate clearances. When i told him that just getting into spec after tearing all that **** apart was not acceptable to me, he agreed that that was also the case when he was doing his own bike. I said why don't you make 2.5 shims for OCDers and he couldn't answer that question.
So save yourself 90 bucks if you care about getting them all set the same or close to it. And, by the way, is there anyone who checked their clearances and found them all different, like 5 and 7 for the intakes of 10 and 12 for the exhausts. Mine were all 5's for the intakes(except one tight 6), and all 10s for the exhausts. Since all the shims were diff thicknesses, I assume that whoever set them at the factory or less likely at 600 miles, took extreme care to arrive at congruent numbers and that tells me that I want to do the same. So goodbye Hot Cams and hello Honda.
01-09-2011 | 05:01 PM
#178
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,689
From: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
I have a question about valve wear. A comment was made earlier that all the valves wear into to seats over time, causing decreased clearance.
Years ago it was presented to me that this is true of the intake valves, whereas exhaust valves generally have increased lash over time due to carbon buildup. This is the reason why sometimes you get lucky and can just swap shims between valves.
I have not really discussed this much and would like opinions on the matter.
Years ago it was presented to me that this is true of the intake valves, whereas exhaust valves generally have increased lash over time due to carbon buildup. This is the reason why sometimes you get lucky and can just swap shims between valves.
I have not really discussed this much and would like opinions on the matter.
The faces of the exhaust valves and the exhaust valve seats wear out faster than the intakes. The exhaust valves are heated by the escaping exhaust gas while they are open. They are then cooled by conduction through the valve seats. They get very hot and actually micro-weld themselves to the seat. When they open again, it pulls a bit of metal from the valve face. When you remove the exhaust valves from a head, the exhaust valves are always pitted, for that reason. As the valve face gets pitted and the seat gets built up with valve material, the heat conduction gets worse over time, so you have a cascading effect.
01-09-2011 | 06:17 PM
#179
Thread Starter
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,934
From: altoona, pa
The shims are spaced at 0.05 mm in the hotcams and 0.025 mm in the Honda range... Which is in the 0.001 inch increments or 0.0001 increments... A whole different ballgame...
Sorry if I'm a bit rough, but either get it right or don't go preaching... My opinion is still to do it in mm... Based on the fact that the parts are manufactured and spec'ed in mm... That makes it both a source of annoyance, complication and numberfudging to start converting back and forth...
Sorry if I'm a bit rough, but either get it right or don't go preaching... My opinion is still to do it in mm... Based on the fact that the parts are manufactured and spec'ed in mm... That makes it both a source of annoyance, complication and numberfudging to start converting back and forth...
When you read about shim kits in their adds, Hot Cams and others refer to 5mm increments like 200, 195, 190, 185, etc. Technically it's 2.00mm, 1.95mm, etc., and whatever the half way point is between the 5's. Like i think a 2.02 is actually a 2.025mm shim I believe, or whatever is the halfway point between 2.00 and 2.05
I know I'm a dumbass and i'm okay with that. "but either get it right or don't go preaching". That's a nice cliche, but if i believed I was wrong, i wouldn't have been putting it down like it I believed it was right. Either way, i don't like the word preaching used to describe my words because it carries religious connotations for me and I am at best agnostic and definitely a religious.
I may have put the decimals in the wrong place because i suck at math, and i can only speak one language too, but what kind of product can you expect from the third rate education system we have here in the good old US of A. In my own defense, I do have some redeeming skills, I just can't remember any of em right now haha.
Back to the shims. I was going to use the mm vs in but I don't have a good set of mm feeler gauges, haha. My shim calculations didn't come out the way I anticipated, of course.
When i first checked the valves @ 25,000mi, both rear cylinder intakes were at .005in(or -1 from ideal) and both exhausts were at .010in(-2 from ideal). My goal was intakes .007in, exhausts .013in, that is one over for both.
So i figured i drop 2 shim sizes for the intakes and 3 sizes for the exhausts.
Intakes were 208 and 200, so i dropped 2 sizes on each(202 and 195).
Exhausts were 182 and 178, so I dropped 3 sizes on each(175 and 170).
dropping 2 shim sizes yielded a tight .006in or increased clearance .001in.
dropping 3 shim sizes yielded a loose .014in or increased clearance .004in.
It doesn't seem right, but................ now I'm gonna have to order more shims. I want a kit so I can play around and get them close to .001 or 3mm over spec.
I would recommend, not preaching Tweety,haha, that if you take you bike to shop to have your valves adjusted, ask to see their shim kit. If they bring out a Hot Cams any other except Wiseco, you may as well resign yourself to the fact that your valves most likely will not come out equal like they were set at the factory. The Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki shops i visited all used Hot Cams kits and they only come in 5mm increments which make it nearly impossible to arrive at equal settings. It's difficult enough at .025mm(or whatever decimal is half of 5) increments to get them fairly even.
I'm sick of ordering shims. The only company i've found that sells kits with less than 5mm increments is Wiseco and I'll have to verify that tomorrow when I will call them.
If i have to keep ordering from honda, I will, but only as a last resort. On the plus side of this, I am getting good at removing the cams, sprockets and CCTs and i will eventually get these valve clearances closer than with 5mm increment shims, I hope anyway.
01-09-2011 | 07:44 PM
#180
Senior Member
MotoGP
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,871
From: Phoenix, AZ
Dang man hope you get it right... seems like you've come across all kinds of bumps...
At least it's nothing serious like a blown motor or busted frame, but sometimes the little things like ordering small expensive parts and waiting for them to come is even more frustrating
At least it's nothing serious like a blown motor or busted frame, but sometimes the little things like ordering small expensive parts and waiting for them to come is even more frustrating
