nath981

decided to check valve adjustment at 28k miles and am surprised that there seems to be no free play. Turn the engine counterclockwise to RT on the compression stroke(cam sprockets markings I and E level with head), and there is no clearance on either intake or exhaust.

it seems that there should be a position that neither intake or exhaust cam lobe is touching the shim, but no. As the intake gets to the point where there is a little freeplay, the exhaust lobe is still depressing the shim. When at RT mark, both intake and exhaust llobes are slightly depressing the shims. WTF?

r80gsman

puzzleing,, on an Airhead that means valve recession. not sure on a honda, i have not been into mine yet to do the auto CCT's and check the valves. is there a way that oil pressure is built up under the shim caps causing no clearance??? have not looked at the system to know how it works.

i am interested to see what it is..

nath981

yeah, I have never messed with overhead cams, so i don't know. What's weird is that I wasn't even going to do this because the engine seems to run so good. I guess I'll have to order a shim kit or start grinding down what's in there to see if i can get to a point where there is clearance on both intake and exhaust at TDC.

RCVTR

Make sure you are checking clearance for the correct cams at the correct time. there are different marks on the crank for front and rear, and you have to be sure you are at top-center on the compression stroke and not between exhaust and intake stroke.

Read the manual.

7moore7

I am not near the manual or bike but I *think* that to do valve clearancing you have to have the TDC set on the correct intake/compression stroke. Try turning it over 360 degrees.

When I did mine, I couldn't really get the hang of which was compression, but I just turned it over until the cams were symmetrical - as in both angling toward each other or both angling away and then I was able to clearance correctly.

killer5280

I assume the FE and FI marks on the sprockets are facing outward when the crank is at the RT mark?

nath981

I've read the manual, threads herein, etc., and turned the crank over several times to watch everything, and have the the spark plug out so I can turn it over easily. It gets a little tight right before TDC(RT mark) and wants to go past the mark if I don't just gently nudge the wrench when it gets close. The cam lobes are positioned to the front (I)and rear(E) pointing down to the outsides of the shims, and the Sprocket marks(I & E)are aligned level with the top of the case. On the rear cylinder sprockets the I and E marks are across from each other between the sprockets, whereas on the front cylinder, the I and E marks are level with the top of the case but facing outwards as pictured in the manual.

7moore7

Yeah, but it doesn't happen every time on the RT mark I don't think because of the differences in intake/compression (I think I am saying that right) strokes. There are probably different ways of doing it, but still what worked best for me was to align the cam lobes the way they were pictured in the manual- that way you can't mess up because they only align that way once and that once is when you check for clearance...

7moore7

hmmm... I don't think I ever had the lobes pointed down toward the shims... they were either pointed up and out or up and in...

What's weird is that if you have done it correctly, the clearances should be looser, not tighter. I was under the impression that you're adjusting for wear, so the shims should have a bigger gap.

nath981

yeah, you're right. when the lobes are pointed up and in, and, as killer noted, the I and E on the sprockets are toward the outside, the readings make more sense(.005 Intake and .010 Ex.)

Wow! I feel better now that I know that there is some clearance. What a dumbass! I read that the sprocket markings were to the outside for the front, but figured they were on the inside on the rear because the rear sprocket mark is hidden toward the back. And I would have never expected the lobes to be pointed upwards. Pre-conceived notions can **** you up.

Thanks for the help people!

Oh, another question. I guess the best place to order shims is Hot Cams?

And also, If I leave it at the correct TDC for the rear, can i remove the CCT without having the chain skip teeth? and then do the front the same way?

7moore7

I did the same exact thing when I was trying to do mine so someone must be pre-conceiving our notions subliminally.

Not sure about the shims... I just went in and ordered some from the honda shop...

One thing I was able to do as I needed thinner shims (to increase the clearance), I shuffled some of them around so that instead of needing to replace all 8 I just needed to replace 4 of them... as in some of the thinner ones fit in spots where the thicker ones were. Some shops may even just swap out shims at no cost to you, just bring them your old ones. Mine didn't so I had to fork out 8 bucks a piece for them...

If you're replacing shims, you're going to have to re-set the timing anyway because you have to take the cams out. So you don't have to worry about upsetting that by removing the CCT's. The cams are attached to the sprockets, which are what need to be timed correctly. You'll just have to have a little patience putting it back together and follow the pics in the manual again... I didn't have any problem, just had to double check everything.

If you don't need to take the cams out, though, you can tie the cam chain to the holes in the sprockets with twine, zip tie, etc so that it stays aligned correctly and then remove your CCT.

7moore7

And I need to correct myself here... the clearances tighten up over time... I always get that one wrong. So you will need smaller shims because your clearances have shrunk (as you indicated). Take time getting the math right on new sizing b/c it's easy to forget what you're trying to do. I had to double check and caught mistakes the first time I calculated new shim sizing.

nath981

yeah, never thought the lobes would be pointing upwards, but i read just a couple minutes ago that it mentions that somewhere else in the manual. That pic in the manual for checking the valves was so poor that I couldn't to see the lobe orientation.

re-set the timing huh?? that sounds like fun. Can i just concentrate on the rear first since it is more accessible or do i need to do both together?

RCVTR

do them one at a time, with the crank at the top-center position for the cylinder you are working on.

If you are going to remove all 4 cams at the same time, don't do it with friends in the garage. That way when the valves slam shut and spin the cams, nobody will laugh at you and call you a dumbass!

nath981

lol I laugh at myself regularly and it seems necessary more often and time passes. haha

I would rather do them separately so I can use the other for reference, and I'm not goin to take it apart til I get a shim kit. That way the taking apart and putting together will be in close proximity.

i wanna take the ccts out in the meantime cause I just have the bolt in only method, and accord to tweety and others, it won't stop it from failing. I'm going to see if I can modify it somehow esp since it's gonna cost 90 bucks for the shims/

Tweety

Nath... Do the DIY version with a bolt, two locknuts and a tread tap... I have mentioned it a few times and there should be a few pictures floating about... The only "special" tool you need is a tap and a drillpress, and if you lack a drillpress someone should be able to loan you the 10 minutes you need on one to do the work...

8541Hawk

You do know that there are two (2) timing marks? FT & RT........

nath981

yeah i saw that info and that's the plan. Let's hope it goes better than the valve debacle. haha thanx

nath981

yeah, I figured that out, but I couldn't get in my head that the cam lobes would be pointing up, and that one of the sprocket markings would be hidden on the rear cylinder. So i conjured up this little idea that for visibility sake, honda put the sprocket marks toward the center instead of toward the outside as on the front. I'm a little slow and I don't thinks it's gonna be getting better as time is not on my side. haha Thanks for the get back.

r80gsman

when i check my valves i am going to change out my CCT's, mostlikely with new autos.. i want to see if i have this right. a bolt and nut(6mmx1.0x30mm) in the end of a stock CCT will, if and when broken, keep it from damaging the motor, and will sound like a loose Cam Chain. putting in manual CCT will eliminate any problem at all.. i am just not wanting to put in manuals, if i do go that rout it will be a modified oem to manual..but i would like the extra confort of a fail safe with out having to do my valves and CCT now...

so the shims are for valve recession, not "lifter/lobe" wear.. you go down in shim sizes. like exhaust could be used for intake and buy new exhaust shims...

RCVTR

It's always good to tick one more thing off the list of things you don't know.

It helps if you don't worry about the fact that the list is still infinite, no matter how much you learn.

kai ju

I don't know whether you've done the valve adjust yet but here is a tip from a 35 year mechanic:
Watch the intake valve being opened by the cam and keep rotating the crank until it closes. At that point take a bamboo skewer and stick it in the spark plug hole and watch it rise as you continue to turn the crank. When it stops moving you have reached TDC compression. This is where you check your valves. It never fails.

nath981

well I'm just trying to keep the cup half full, but I think there may be a leak somewhere. haha

nath981

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...highlight=ccts

7moore7

Ah- so yeah, tie the cam chain to the sprockets while you're working on the CCT's, and do them one at a time.

And from advice that others- I think 8541Hawk actually- a shim kit isn't always the best route because the shims don't go in as small of steps as if you were to go order/trade individual ones from the dealer. In other words, you won't be able to fine tune as much with a shim kit. Just a thought.

And I forgot how bad the pics were- I was using a Haynes manual for part of it and that one has much better photos.

And last, with the covers off it isn't too hard to set the timing... It took me just an hour to do both my first time and I work slooooooowwww, triple checking everything. That includes putting the cam covers/guide thingys on and rotating to TDC a couple of times. I ended up taking the bolts out one by one to put thread locker on and then torque them all but to get the timing right... took an hour.

nath981

will I need a Hawaiian lay and a grass skirt too? put some meat on that skewer and fire up the hawk. May as well have a lual while I'm at it, huh. haha

Seriously, sounds like a good idea. I'll try it, but if I stab myself in the eye, you're responsible.

r80gsman

i am going to keep that tread, however if i go full manual i will use the carage bolt and remover all the guts of the cct.. my question is if i insert a m6 with a locking nut in place of top bolt on the CCT and finger thread it down till it stops, back it a 1/16 of a turn and lock the nut down on it will it help if/when a spring lets go in the CCT. only would like to know cause this can be done without removing the ccts on the bike at this time.

i read the thread on the slotted bolt, i am wandering about a none slotted bolt. seams to me it would keep the adjustment screw form back out if the spring broke and would allow it to continue to auto adjust with cam chain wear.

Tweety

No, sorry, but you got it wrong... A bolt and nut in the end of the stock CCT does just about the same as the stock bolt that is there... It holds the oil inside... Nothing else...

When the CCT breaks and backs out, that part does not move vertically, it just spins in place... So the only way to make the stock CCT's "fail-proof" is to insert a flat piece locking them (see the linked thread)... At which point they become a less efficient manual CCT...

Either use an unmodified stock CCT and swap regularily or use a completely manual CCT... Not some half-arsed attempt...

nath981

Hell, you'd think the shim kit would be the way to go, but not necessarily so, huh> Sounds like trying to find exactly what you need could be lots of fun, and lots of trips to the dealership. It will probably take me days just running back and forth. I think this is gonna suck.

Maybe i'll try to land on .007 I and .013 EX so that by the time they tighten up over time, we'll be right there at .006 and .012. It is +or - .001 I believe.

r80gsman

ok, i think i got how those things work, and now understand. i need to get a set of old ones to play with to make manuals out of.

so i can grind the bolt end to a blade and thread it in until it stops and lock the lock nut, so when adjusting these they adjust the same way as the apes, if needed at all