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Time for a rebuild, a few questions to those with experience.

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Time for a rebuild, a few questions to those with experience.

Old 07-14-2012, 12:47 PM
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Time for a rebuild, a few questions to those with experience.

The bike has developed a knock in the lower end. To confirm bearing failure, I drained/filtered the oil to find pieces of non-ferrous metal ranging from flakes to small grains of rice . So, I plan on dropping the motor from the bike and getting it up on the bench for further inspection. While I am in the motor, I would like to improve what I can (with a limited budget of course). I think JE pistons are a must. Are there any high performance bearings or do you guys just run OEM honda parts? How about transmission mods? Any special tricks that I should be aware of in the engine? Also, where are you guys purchasing the parts from?... as in your gaskets, bearings, high performance parts, ect?

I appreciate the insight! Thanks
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:08 AM
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I would also like to ask, can someone point me to some reading material reguarding to the four exhaust cam swap? Degreeing two used exhaust cams into the intake cam is simple enough and if there are performance gains, I will surely do it. I just can't spend $700+ for webcams/megacycle grinds right now (maybe in the future). I've seen online that guys used to do this but I have yet to find an article of any owner reviews.
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Old 07-15-2012, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by gotta_gofast View Post
I would also like to ask, can someone point me to some reading material reguarding to the four exhaust cam swap? Degreeing two used exhaust cams into the intake cam is simple enough and if there are performance gains, I will surely do it. I just can't spend $700+ for webcams/megacycle grinds right now (maybe in the future). I've seen online that guys used to do this but I have yet to find an article of any owner reviews.
Not sure how you would do that as the OEM cam gears are not adjustable.




I suppose you could have a machine shop slot the gears for you... But by the time you pay for that, your in aftermarket cams territory.
Attached Thumbnails Time for a rebuild, a few questions to those with experience.-cams.jpg  
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:18 AM
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IF it were me planning a build
.. The budget would be set for:
  • JE pistons, set of 4 (minimum order) and 8 sets of rings.
  • New Rod bearings
  • New crank bearings
  • New valves, seals, locks, plus $$ for a quality shop to install.
  • Budget time and $ to inspect and replace every bearing in the case.. Me Id go with OEM bearings, as it's not a race bike and never will be.. you can likely source many like sized Ceramic Hybrid bearings.. and "increase performance" but at what cost and what real world usable gains? .. If your going for an all out build, custom cams, bigger valves, FCR carbs, compleat header to exhaust can system, then sure .. otherwise... OEM IMHO.
  • The cylinders would be bored to match the JE pistons and nikasil plated and then finished honed to size.
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Old 07-15-2012, 06:42 AM
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There's a company that sell adjustable cam sprockets for @$90 but you can slot them yourself with a dremel tool if your handy.

Measure the bore at the top middle and bottom if it's still within soec just bead hone it and go with stock bore HC pistons, there are others besides JE.

There is a guy on here that did the EX cam thing, I don't remember who it is but the setup was 101 intake and 106 exhaust.

If you use the search engine you'll find all your answers.
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by HRCA#1 View Post
There's a company that sell adjustable cam sprockets for @$90 but you can slot them yourself with a dremel tool if your handy.

Measure the bore at the top middle and bottom if it's still within soec just bead hone it and go with stock bore HC pistons, there are others besides JE.

There is a guy on here that did the EX cam thing, I don't remember who it is but the setup was 101 intake and 106 exhaust.

If you use the search engine you'll find all your answers.
Falicon?
http://www.orientexpress.com/p-2220-...sprockets.aspx

http://www.faliconcranks.com/sprocket_price.html
Good catch, and at $100 buy in, better idea then home dremel work or taking to a machine shop,,

Engine building with a dremel? .. I suppose,, not my style, but do what works for you..

An engine with enough use and hours to need crank / rod replacement is going to have cylinder wear.. if this was a 1978 ford straight 6, sure hit it with a ball hone and stuff in some OEM sized pistons... .. .. But it's a bike, and why not make the most of the build......

Use a quality aftermarket piston in an overbore size , upgrade the cylinders to modern coatings, sized perfectly to fit the new pistons.

Again not a flame, to each his own ..... The OP asked for opinions, he has some from two others now

Last edited by E.Marquez; 07-15-2012 at 07:03 AM.
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:29 AM
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Dude I'm old school and follow the KISS principle and the old "if itain't broke don't fix it".

As you correctly point out the SH isn't a race bike so there is no reason to get all exotic with Nikesil coatings, or even an overbore if the spec is good. There a guy on here yesterday selling engine case with an in spec bore already bead honed for $130. I'd start there and address all of my concerns top end and bottom.
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Old 07-15-2012, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by HRCA#1 View Post
Dude I'm old school and follow the KISS principle and the old "if itain't broke don't fix it".

As you correctly point out the SH isn't a race bike so there is no reason to get all exotic with Nikesil coatings, or even an overbore if the spec is good. There a guy on here yesterday selling engine case with an in spec bore already bead honed for $130. I'd start there and address all of my concerns top end and bottom.
All good points... The Nikasil is more towards longevity and quality of build.. It is not done for performance advantage. Nikasil plating is not "exotic" in any way, nor has been for many years.. Common place in today's bikes.. Un-plated steel liners are, well "old school" and while they worked well enough when that was the only choice and the best available... there are better choices now.

And when done as part of a actual boring process (not just ball hone to clean up a non worn or damaged steel / Alu cylinder) it is not much more $$ then a quality bore and hone job.
JE sells the 98mm STD bore as well, without custom charge or min quality issues.
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Po.../vtr_1000.aspx


Have the cylinders bored, plated , honed, fit for 98mm pistons (OEM, HRC, or JE) and it would be a great base for a build.

Last edited by E.Marquez; 07-15-2012 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:11 AM
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Believe me, I've tried to search on the forums and google to find others who have swapped exhaust cams in to little luck. (maybe I'm using the wrong search titles) Should I choose to do this, I would end-mill slots. However, I may just send the bumpsticks out for a different profile.

Marquez, I understand the advantages of nikasil cylinder plating (had my 421 cheetah cub on my banshee replated for around $300) but I'd rather save the funds on the bike for other projects. I really wouldn't have bothered to tear into it until a lower rod knock was established. I'd just like to have a little fun with it while I'm in there. I won't take the chance with my cases and rotating assembly (due to the high content of metal in the oil) so I purchased a used case/rotating assembly from motormouth with fresh ball hone. While I will blueprint the block and heads for ease of mind, I'm just looking for a fresh motor with a few goodies above stock.

My plan is to disassemble, measure/inspect components and replace all bearins/bushings and any other "wearable" parts. I will use JE standard bore pistons if the new cylinders are within factory spec and I may clean up the intake/exhaust ports. Once I have the heads disassembled I will decide then if the intake runner needs any attention (specifically bowl/valve guide area and short turn radius). This winter I plan on having some fun with the exhaust (I will construct a stainless undertail exhaust from cylinder back) and this is most likely when I'll jump for a set of custom cams. But again, this is a toy and commuter for me. My real toys are more "off road" oriented so thats where I tend to put more of my wallet. lol

I would like to have the rotating assembly balanced (JE pistons are most likely a lot lighter than stock). Any recommended places to send out to? Whats a reasonable price I should expect to pay?

I appreciate the discussion!
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:23 PM
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Good luck with the build, I almost bought those cases myself, but I just spent a ton of money on some other stuff so I decided against it for now.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by HRCA#1 View Post
Good luck with the build, I almost bought those cases myself, but I just spent a ton of money on some other stuff so I decided against it for now.
I'm such a bad influence.....
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:34 PM
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i would caution you against doing your own under tail exhaust. Me and autotech did out own on my superhawk and it requires a lot of modifications. plus it becomes very difficult to tune. you will need to cut apart the whole under tail, relocate components, make a new battery tray and the list goes on and on. One other person tried doing it as well and after a few months they went back to a stock exhaust. i attached a few pictures to show you what mine looks like.

here is a link to another member that tried the exhaust mod

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...-inputs-23978/
Attached Thumbnails Time for a rebuild, a few questions to those with experience.-287.jpg   Time for a rebuild, a few questions to those with experience.-288.jpg  
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Old 07-15-2012, 01:46 PM
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Looks good but I won't be dropping the rear cylinder down just to merge with the front cylinder and then bringing it all back up... I'll just sweep the rear cylinder up and where the down pipe used to be is where the front will enter into the cross over pipe.... All of which will hit two mufflers tucked under the tail. Should be cleaner... no the pipes wont be equal length but you free up about 360 degrees worth of bend and the factory head pipes aren't balanced anyway. This way I also get rid of the mid pipes protruding outside the swingarm and then wrapping back in.
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:17 PM
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i dont want to thread jack this post. so if you have any more questions about creating the undertail exhaust you can pm me.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:23 AM
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First of all good luck on your upcoming rebuild.

I am in the process of collecting parts for an upcoming rebuild so if you find any good deals on parts post them up... I was going to say we should split a set of JE overbores but it doesnt look like you need them anymore, hopefully my walls are within spec because I didnt know JE offered STD bore without the custom order BS...
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:46 PM
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Teardown complete. My metal shavings and knocking appear to be caused by a bad PTO side crank main bearing. The crank walked toward the PTO side and the crank counterweight shaved some aluminum off of the case. Fox performance will balance the new rotating assembly and I will port the heads.

Scottiemann-part of the reason I chose to go stock bore was because I didn't want to order custom pistons and eat two of them. lol, how many miles are on your bike? Mine had 35K and the bores looked beautiful still. I would have used that case if the crank hadn't eaten part of it.
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Old 08-18-2012, 02:12 PM
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While you're in it I'd look at doing the shifter mods. I think it's Factory Pro that has them. New shift star and a couple other components.

Sounds like you’re off to a pretty good start on the rest of it with some porting work etc. You might think about having the flywheel lightened while you’re in there as well.

As for the Nikisil it'd be pointless in these engines. The point of it is that the liner is super thin so that the heat will transfer better. But you've already got a steel sleeve so you'd need to remove the sleeve then nikisil the case which would leave you with a huge piston and I'm not sure if you'd have enough meat around the cylinders to be strong enough at that point. If you've already got a steel sleeve then stick with it and just bore it.

Using a dermal or die grinder to slot the cam sprockets to degree them is no big deal. They don't rely on the bolts to align the sprockets. They are aligned by the center hole in the sprocket on the cam. So they don't need to be precisely machined perfect.
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Old 08-18-2012, 03:53 PM
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I didn't plan on nikasil anyway.

As for the shifting mods, I'll keep it simple with this build. Facotry shift star, might play with a lighter shift shaft spring??? And when its together I will work out a game plan for tightening up the bushings in the linkages from the shifter to the shift shaft for some consistant predictable shifts. This trans seems to engage well as is so I will scratch removing every other dog from the gearsides.

I have two cranks, the better one will be sent out with the rest of the rotating assembly to Fox Performance to be balanced. I'm still debating on spending the extra coin to have the crank lightened and/or knife edged... The other will be sacrificed. I'll just harvest the flywheel side of it to chuck in the lathe so I have a tapered mount to bolt to. As for cams??? I'll most likely end up with regrinds. Should the sprockets need clearancing to rotate the cams I'll mill a slot in them. I've got other projects to feed my "crazy" side, this is just one of those unexpected rebuilds. Even so, I would feel guilty assembling everything back to factory spec without any personal love!
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by gotta_gofast View Post
Scottiemann-part of the reason I chose to go stock bore was because I didn't want to order custom pistons and eat two of them. lol, how many miles are on your bike? Mine had 35K and the bores looked beautiful still. I would have used that case if the crank hadn't eaten part of it.
mine only has about 35k as well so hopefully mine are looking decent and I can order the JE standard bore set. Whats your plan for the topend? camshafts specifically, Im looking at webcams for a regrind but open to other options as that would cost me about $700 for cams and a spring kit and I dont think that includes shipping back and forth.

Im also trying to source oversize valves...

anyways good luck with the build and hope everythings going smoothly
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:13 AM
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I've decided on coated JE pistons, stock rods, and stock crank all to be dynamically balanced. Last week I finished porting the heads. For the intake, I flattened the port floor from the divider through the short turn (while laying back the short turn). The valve guides have been narrowed and the port divider was narrowed. Some bowl blending but no major changes there. Finished with an 80 grit cartridge roll at 400rpm (for the brushed metal texture). The exhaust also was treated to a more gradual short turn radius and more bowl blending. Other than that, the architecture of the exhaust stayed close to the same (besides blending casting flaws) and the exhaust port polished. The combustion chamber has some light valve shrouding that was blended back and the chamber polished, too.

Larger valves are a great improvement (with supporting porting) for those looking to gain in mid-top performance. However, with the reputation of the crankshaft failing at excessive rpm, I chose to build a motor that makes good broad torque and power without raising the rev limiter. For this, (and price increase of +1 valves) I feel the stock sized valves are sufficient.

Camshafts are still undecided. I will probably end up with the common 125/109 grind from webcams. Megacycle has a few grinds but I fear they are too aggressive for my goal. Its tempting... but I already have crazy high strung toys so I need to have something with manners. lol

I also plan on designing a header to work with the motor, but need to decide on an exhaust camshaft profile before I can figure exhaust pulse figures for tuning.

How's your build coming?
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Old 09-16-2012, 06:13 AM
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Haven't started the build yet as I'm still riding and the build isn't out of necessity but desire. I am however broke as a joke and working on getting a better job so right now I'm focused on making a complete comprehensive list of parts so I'm not wasting time or money when it comes time to tear her down...

I will be starting to work on things for the naked build and getting them prepared as I don't need the bike apart to get them ready. I just pulled out of hiding a bmw bixenon headlight to take apart and start designing the headlight assembly and small front fairing piece and I've been looking at collecting lifepo4 cells for a lighter more powerful battery...

One thing I can't figure out about the build is the camshafts. Ive looked at the webcams grind and that may be the way to go, however I haven't been able to find the different grinds on the megacycle website to see what they have... if you can dig up a link that would be great. I do plan on having crank work done so I can handle bigger lifts depending on what the cams have to offer.
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Old 09-16-2012, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by GTS View Post
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]As for the Nikisil it'd be pointless in these engines. The point of it is that the liner is super thin so that the heat will transfer better. But you've already got a steel sleeve so you'd need to remove the sleeve then nikisil the case which would leave you with a huge piston and I'm not sure if you'd have enough meat around the cylinders to be strong enough at that point. If you've already got a steel sleeve then stick with it and just bore it.
Not how it's done..

The old tech, outdated steel liner would be removed and an aluminum liner installed, bored, Nikasil coated, then honed to final dimensions for the pistons chosen..

Can a successful build be done with out all that.. Of course. depending on what the builders plan is..

But if Nikasil is being discussed the reality of how it's done is better discussed. Vice wild guessing about removing liners and coating the bare cylinders then using Yuban coffee can sized pistons, which of course do not even exist.
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