No spark... spring looms nearer...
02-03-2010, 02:34 PM
#31
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SuperBike
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Don't know about where to get the connectors, but here is a wiring loom that you might be able to use or cut and use. $15
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WIRE-...item19b8d2ec30
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WIRE-...item19b8d2ec30
02-03-2010, 05:55 PM
#32
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Squid
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 65
Sorry for the long message but maybe some of it can help.
Maybe a little light can be shined on the 3.something mA of current; connect both leads of the multi-meter together and see what it reads for current. You should get ~0... you might get more. It all depends on your meter's acuracy (which should also be listed in your book).
If your worried about battery voltage you can always hook up a car battery to it with some beefy jumper cables. If the battery is IN a car, just make sure the car is NOT running.
The 100V minimum spec is a way of checking the spark voltage and hence the coils. In my book; if both coils have the same resistance on their respective windings... then I'd call them most likely good. How likely would it be that they fail in exactly the same manner at the same time?
Also; to get a close-to-maximum tester you can go to your radio shack and get a 100V+ diode (preferably a few more hundreds of volts, maybe 400V or so) and an equivalently specified capacitor, preferably ceramic. Radio shack may not have these, I don't normally buy parts there, so sorry if they don't carry anything of use. Anode of diode (end without the line) goes to green wire, cathode goes to capacitor, other side of capacitor goes to red wire. Measure the voltage across the capacitor after cranking, this will be the peak voltage. If you use a large-ish capacitor you may want to crank a few times and then measure (this will likely give you a more accurate reading). Since you already have the meter, I would just stick with it, this is mostly a note to others.
If your worried about anything signal-wise after the converter unit you possibly can perform one more test. If when the key is in the run position, the + side of the coil is at battery voltage (check from battery + to this connection! for close to 0 volts!), then you should be able to disconnect the + side of the coil and re-connect it directly to the battery +. When you disconnect it, you should get spark. If this is not what happens then your test setup is defunct or your plugs, ground, wires, or coils are defunct. If this does work then you are likely looking at an issue in the converter unit, ignition control unit, ignition pulse generator, or most likely the wiring associated with them. If you don't get 0 volts between battery + and coil primary + DON'T DO THIS... you might break parts that are currently ok.
The sidestand switches and such being corroded may have something to do with it so it is worth checking out. I got too tired of looking at the bike schematics to determine exactly how they would affect starting. I hate black-box schematics for vehicles, takes me 20 minutes to determine that something is just a switch from the schematic.
Good luck!
Maybe a little light can be shined on the 3.something mA of current; connect both leads of the multi-meter together and see what it reads for current. You should get ~0... you might get more. It all depends on your meter's acuracy (which should also be listed in your book).
If your worried about battery voltage you can always hook up a car battery to it with some beefy jumper cables. If the battery is IN a car, just make sure the car is NOT running.
The 100V minimum spec is a way of checking the spark voltage and hence the coils. In my book; if both coils have the same resistance on their respective windings... then I'd call them most likely good. How likely would it be that they fail in exactly the same manner at the same time?
Also; to get a close-to-maximum tester you can go to your radio shack and get a 100V+ diode (preferably a few more hundreds of volts, maybe 400V or so) and an equivalently specified capacitor, preferably ceramic. Radio shack may not have these, I don't normally buy parts there, so sorry if they don't carry anything of use. Anode of diode (end without the line) goes to green wire, cathode goes to capacitor, other side of capacitor goes to red wire. Measure the voltage across the capacitor after cranking, this will be the peak voltage. If you use a large-ish capacitor you may want to crank a few times and then measure (this will likely give you a more accurate reading). Since you already have the meter, I would just stick with it, this is mostly a note to others.
If your worried about anything signal-wise after the converter unit you possibly can perform one more test. If when the key is in the run position, the + side of the coil is at battery voltage (check from battery + to this connection! for close to 0 volts!), then you should be able to disconnect the + side of the coil and re-connect it directly to the battery +. When you disconnect it, you should get spark. If this is not what happens then your test setup is defunct or your plugs, ground, wires, or coils are defunct. If this does work then you are likely looking at an issue in the converter unit, ignition control unit, ignition pulse generator, or most likely the wiring associated with them. If you don't get 0 volts between battery + and coil primary + DON'T DO THIS... you might break parts that are currently ok.
The sidestand switches and such being corroded may have something to do with it so it is worth checking out. I got too tired of looking at the bike schematics to determine exactly how they would affect starting. I hate black-box schematics for vehicles, takes me 20 minutes to determine that something is just a switch from the schematic.
Good luck!
02-03-2010, 06:00 PM
#33
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Superstock
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 342
The 100V minimum spec is a way of checking the spark voltage and hence the coils. In my book; if both coils have the same resistance on their respective windings... then I'd call them most likely good. How likely would it be that they fail in exactly the same manner at the same time?
you already have the meter, I would just stick with it, this is mostly a note to others.
If your worried about anything signal-wise after the converter unit you possibly can perform one more test. If when the key is in the run position, the + side of the coil is at battery voltage (check from battery + to this connection! for close to 0 volts!), then you should be able to disconnect the + side of the coil and re-connect it directly to the battery +. When you disconnect it, you should get spark. If this is not what happens then your test setup is defunct or your plugs, ground, wires, or coils are defunct. If this does work then you are likely looking at an issue in the converter unit, ignition control unit, ignition pulse generator, or most likely the wiring associated with them. If you don't get 0 volts between battery + and coil primary + DON'T DO THIS... you might break parts that are currently ok.
Good luck!
you already have the meter, I would just stick with it, this is mostly a note to others.
If your worried about anything signal-wise after the converter unit you possibly can perform one more test. If when the key is in the run position, the + side of the coil is at battery voltage (check from battery + to this connection! for close to 0 volts!), then you should be able to disconnect the + side of the coil and re-connect it directly to the battery +. When you disconnect it, you should get spark. If this is not what happens then your test setup is defunct or your plugs, ground, wires, or coils are defunct. If this does work then you are likely looking at an issue in the converter unit, ignition control unit, ignition pulse generator, or most likely the wiring associated with them. If you don't get 0 volts between battery + and coil primary + DON'T DO THIS... you might break parts that are currently ok.
Good luck!
Great tip on the capacitor though! I never thought of that and it's genius!
02-03-2010, 07:02 PM
#34
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Well I got spark! I grounded the converter unit, which is essentially a pre-primary coil... so I know my coils and converter are good. I can see that my neutral and clutch switches are working correctly, and I have ground and power to my ICM. So, I either have a bad ICM, or it is not getting a good signal from the pulse generator. I can see that the generator is pulsing, but I was not able to accurately see it's peak voltage. My parasitic draw was up to 4.5mA today, so there must be a short to ground somewhere... I am having little luck finding it though. And seeing how my no spark was quite gradual, I am inclined to believe it is not the ICM, as I would imagine that would blow quite suddenly and definitively. I am going to attempt to track down and eliminate the parasitic draw before I go any further.
02-03-2010, 07:23 PM
#35
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I appreciate the long post! but actually the spark (secondary) voltage is probably closer to 50,000V. The Primary side of the coil is PERMANENTLY grounded. straight to the frame. The converter pulses 100v positive to the coil primary. I know this is not how ignition systems typically work, but thats how it is.
Normal plug firing voltage is 5KV to 15KV, the coil output to the plug is variable depending on many conditions.
But in an open circuit, with the plug wire held away from ground with special insulated pliers made for that purpose, the coil can put out up to 50,000 volts or more.
And, your coil primary windings are NOT grounded to the frame, if it was the coil would never produce a spark. That's the iron core that's bolted to the frame. The iron core is insulated from the primary and secondary windings and runs through the center of the coil.
I'd suggest reading up on the operation of the ignition system from a text book, the internet is too simplistic. No disrespect intended. I taught detailed operation, diagnosis and repair of ignition systems at least 3 times a year for 34 years. It did change over the years with electronic ignition replacing points, and now direct ignition systems (no distributor) on all cars and trucks (motorcycles have had DIS almost forever, as did the Model T). But the basics are the same.
02-03-2010, 07:39 PM
#36
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And, your coil primary windings are NOT grounded to the frame, if it was the coil would never produce a spark. That's the iron core that's bolted to the frame. The iron core is insulated from the primary and secondary windings and runs through the center of the coil.
I'd suggest reading up on the operation of the ignition system from a text book, the internet is too simplistic. No disrespect intended. I taught detailed operation, diagnosis and repair of ignition systems at least 3 times a year for 34 years. It did change over the years with electronic ignition replacing points, and now direct ignition systems (no distributor) on all cars and trucks (motorcycles have had DIS almost forever, as did the Model T). But the basics are the same.
I'd suggest reading up on the operation of the ignition system from a text book, the internet is too simplistic. No disrespect intended. I taught detailed operation, diagnosis and repair of ignition systems at least 3 times a year for 34 years. It did change over the years with electronic ignition replacing points, and now direct ignition systems (no distributor) on all cars and trucks (motorcycles have had DIS almost forever, as did the Model T). But the basics are the same.
But twice in the manual this is the schematic Honda gives us:
Unless Ground suddenly means +12v or I am reading that wrong, the SH sparks backward.
02-03-2010, 07:41 PM
#37
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With all due respect, I went to school for automotive technology. And yeah you're right about the secondary voltage, it's not that high. But I understand how ignition systems work, and I don't think you've got a grasp on the ignition system on our bike.
The converter unit is more like a typical coil. It has 12v at all times, and the icm switches the transistor to break its ground, and the secondary coil INSIDE the converter send out a momentary voltage of 100v. this 100v is sent to the PRIMARY side of the ignition coils.
rather than the typical way a coil works, our coils are grounded permanently, and when the 100v pulse comes from the converter, it saturates the coil, and then breaks the circuit and a spark is born.
There are several schematics posted in this thread which show the primary coil grounded directly. you just have to look. straight to ground. no switching at all.
The converter unit is more like a typical coil. It has 12v at all times, and the icm switches the transistor to break its ground, and the secondary coil INSIDE the converter send out a momentary voltage of 100v. this 100v is sent to the PRIMARY side of the ignition coils.
rather than the typical way a coil works, our coils are grounded permanently, and when the 100v pulse comes from the converter, it saturates the coil, and then breaks the circuit and a spark is born.
There are several schematics posted in this thread which show the primary coil grounded directly. you just have to look. straight to ground. no switching at all.
02-04-2010, 09:32 AM
#38
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Okay, now I'm confused. I used to tell my students "Anybody who says they know everything about cars is either lying or a fool. And I certainly don't know everything about cars (or motorcycles)". My motorcycle knowledge is mostly based on cars and riding for many years.
You're right, the schematic clearly shows the coil permanently grounded, and apparently from both primary and secondary windings (which are connected on many coils). But I wonder if it's a slight mistake in the drawing, intending to indicate the core is grounded (the windings are wrapped around the core), which it is visibly to the frame under the seat on #2 cyl. If they showed the windings grounded through the converter, that would make sense, but it shows a direct connection to ground with the converter sharing the common ground. And since the coil primary does have battery voltage with the key on, that's where my confusion lies. Voltage supply through the primary to ground has to be broken for the magnetic induction to take place, producing the spark. So if the converter switches the voltage on and off once the engine is cranking, that would work I guess.
So, if I'm wrong, I stand corrected.
You're right, the schematic clearly shows the coil permanently grounded, and apparently from both primary and secondary windings (which are connected on many coils). But I wonder if it's a slight mistake in the drawing, intending to indicate the core is grounded (the windings are wrapped around the core), which it is visibly to the frame under the seat on #2 cyl. If they showed the windings grounded through the converter, that would make sense, but it shows a direct connection to ground with the converter sharing the common ground. And since the coil primary does have battery voltage with the key on, that's where my confusion lies. Voltage supply through the primary to ground has to be broken for the magnetic induction to take place, producing the spark. So if the converter switches the voltage on and off once the engine is cranking, that would work I guess.
So, if I'm wrong, I stand corrected.
02-04-2010, 09:50 AM
#39
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It's alright, it's a confusing system, and lord knows I'm wrong a lot!
But think of this system as having two coils. The converter is the first coil, which has 12v at all times and the ground is switched by the icm. As you know, the reason we went to groundside control of circtuits with the computer was to avoid harmful voltage spikes going back into the fragile computers. And this IS the case with our bikes. The converter is a coilpack, and the icm controls it. The so when the icm grounds the converter, the coil inside the converter saturates, and when the ground is broken the converter sends a spike of 100v out.
Now the other coil is the one on the side of the bike. Because the ICM is controlling the ground of the converter, we don't have to worry about voltage spikes hurting it, and therefore it doesn't matter which side of the coil is controlled. So the converter briefly sends out 100v to the coil, which saturates the windings, and then the positive is broken, creating a much higher secondary voltage. This way the coil only has to step up a 100v charge rather than 12v. I'm not sure if this is to make life easier on the coil, or so that it can step it up much higher, but thats how it is.
If you see battery voltage at the coil when the bike is not running, I would have to say something is not right... you should have ground at all times and no voltage with the key on and the bike not running.
But think of this system as having two coils. The converter is the first coil, which has 12v at all times and the ground is switched by the icm. As you know, the reason we went to groundside control of circtuits with the computer was to avoid harmful voltage spikes going back into the fragile computers. And this IS the case with our bikes. The converter is a coilpack, and the icm controls it. The so when the icm grounds the converter, the coil inside the converter saturates, and when the ground is broken the converter sends a spike of 100v out.
Now the other coil is the one on the side of the bike. Because the ICM is controlling the ground of the converter, we don't have to worry about voltage spikes hurting it, and therefore it doesn't matter which side of the coil is controlled. So the converter briefly sends out 100v to the coil, which saturates the windings, and then the positive is broken, creating a much higher secondary voltage. This way the coil only has to step up a 100v charge rather than 12v. I'm not sure if this is to make life easier on the coil, or so that it can step it up much higher, but thats how it is.
If you see battery voltage at the coil when the bike is not running, I would have to say something is not right... you should have ground at all times and no voltage with the key on and the bike not running.
02-13-2010, 09:20 AM
#40
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SPARK!!
Well I found the problem... I opened up my crankcase and pulled out the pulse generator to find that the small piece of metal which gets near the wheel was bent at about a 45 degree angle. The previous owner said he put in a timing advancer, so I assume that he must have bent it during install. I bent it back straight and now I have spark. I can only assume the generator is on its way out, and the distance it was at was too far. I will plan on buying a new one, but now I know what the problem was! Also I found my parasitic drain was in the ignition switch... So I am going to wire up a toggle switch today. Also eliminate the clutch, sidestand and neutral swtiches. Oh and my hole left controls also lol 150 mph here I come...
Well I found the problem... I opened up my crankcase and pulled out the pulse generator to find that the small piece of metal which gets near the wheel was bent at about a 45 degree angle. The previous owner said he put in a timing advancer, so I assume that he must have bent it during install. I bent it back straight and now I have spark. I can only assume the generator is on its way out, and the distance it was at was too far. I will plan on buying a new one, but now I know what the problem was! Also I found my parasitic drain was in the ignition switch... So I am going to wire up a toggle switch today. Also eliminate the clutch, sidestand and neutral swtiches. Oh and my hole left controls also lol 150 mph here I come...
02-13-2010, 01:29 PM
#41
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All that stuffing around to find out that the previous owner did a crappy mod! Must be really satisfying though to find all the problems and solve them.
You are fortunate that you have the knowledge to do this. Imagine having to pay for a workshop to identify those issues - it would be $10 for parts and $500 for labour.
Excellent explanation of the ign system by the way.
You are fortunate that you have the knowledge to do this. Imagine having to pay for a workshop to identify those issues - it would be $10 for parts and $500 for labour.
Excellent explanation of the ign system by the way.
02-13-2010, 05:22 PM
#42
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Good job !! So I was right about when the speed of the engine was rising, the pulses were getting stronger, so when it fired up, the crank speed was greater and the engine will keep running. We ruled that out since the voltage was above the manual specs, I guess that we have a new value now.
02-13-2010, 05:43 PM
#43
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Good job !! So I was right about when the speed of the engine was rising, the pulses were getting stronger, so when it fired up, the crank speed was greater and the engine will keep running. We ruled that out since the voltage was above the manual specs, I guess that we have a new value now.
02-13-2010, 06:01 PM
#44
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Good job !! So I was right about when the speed of the engine was rising, the pulses were getting stronger, so when it fired up, the crank speed was greater and the engine will keep running. We ruled that out since the voltage was above the manual specs, I guess that we have a new value now.
I'm not too sure on the voltage increase with rpm... it may only increase frequency... I don't know. Once I get everything back together and start it I'll measure again.
Thanks for all the help guys! I'm so excited! I was worried I would cut into riding season!
02-13-2010, 07:33 PM
#45
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Glad you finally found it. It's a lot easier to backtrack while troubleshooting when you've been the only one to work on a car/bike. Who would have thought that he would just jamb things in there and bend parts. And you're right in replacing it, since I assume it's a magnetic coil which can be damaged by impact.
Now go ride when the weather permits.
Now go ride when the weather permits.
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