No spark... spring looms nearer...
 

Well before I put the bike up for the winter, it seemed to get just a little harder to start each day. Ten seconds of cranking before it started one day, 15 the next, and so on until it didn't want to start at all. I just got around to looking at it, and it seems I have no spark. fuses are fine. and I've been testing for spark from the coil so its not something silly like plugs. I went through the manual and checked for power at the Bl/W wire at the ICM and converter, and it shows 12 volts. so that means fuses, ignition stop switch and ignition switch are all working. I have ground at the coil, and Bu/Y and Y/Bu wires from the converter to the coils are intact and have good continuity. It wants me to check for peak voltage at the pulse generator and at the coils, but I don't have a peak voltage adapter, so I was hoping some of you wise and learned hawk riders might have some sage wisdom for me in the mean time. Any common problems? Things I should check out? All input is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

If you have voltage to the coils, check for spark at the plug wire:

1. remove plug wire from plug.
2. place narrow blade screwdriver into spark plug boot until you touch the metal terminal.
3. crank the starter while holding the screwdriver blade 1/4 inch from the valve cover or other ground.

If you get a spark, that's not the problem, try changing the plugs.

If no spark, but you have 12v at the coils, it's either the pulse generator, the ignition module, or the coils (unlikely since both would probably not go out at the same time). Honda cars used to have problems with the modules in the 90s.

But check and clean all connections before buying any parts, other than spark plugs.

Also make sure the spark isn't leaking to ground from the coil or plug wire.

I appreciate the input, but did you read my post or just the title?? lol I said I am looking for spark at the coil with a spark tester, so I already ruled out the plug. And I said I have GROUND at the coils, not 12v, the coils are constantly grounded, and the controller pulses voltage to them, which you need to check with a peak voltage adapter or other labscope/oscilloscope which I don't have.

Well, is there spark from the coil or not...you didn't state.

Jeez, you remind me of some of my old students.

I'm trying to decipher...You said you don't have 12v to the coils. Well that won't work. We're talking about the coil primary here, small wires. One of those wires should have 12v with the key on.

How did you determine that. Did you check for spark at the plug end of the wire?

Just trying to help dude, but you have to learn to communicate.

I would check the pulse gen first, these VR sensors are magnets and can attract a lot of particles messing up the magnetic field.
The main difference between cranking and running is the pulses amplitude, as the RPM increase, the amplitude goes up and is easier to pick by the computer.
Other than that, mounting bolts could come loose.
Check the wiring, keep it away from the coils.
It may be a failing component from the ICM or converter too.
How goes the cranking speed, how it behave when you boost it, does it start quicker ??
You may call around to see if someone you know have a Peak hold multimeter to loan.

I didn't mean to be an ass, honest. I really do appreciate the help. Just razzlin your dazzle :P

I checked for spark at the coil bozth before and after the plug wires. Neither coil is getting any spark.

Thats what I assumed too but thats not the case. According to the manual the coils are grounded at all times, the computer controls the hot side, not the ground.


thats a good tip, the last owner said he installed a 5 degree timing advancer, and having become more familiar with his work, it wouldn't surprise me if he did some dodgy work in there too.
I'll try to track down a peak hold multimeter and in the meantime I'll take a look at the pulse generator.

I wonder where he got that as Factory only made 2,4 &6 degree advancers.

Previous work is always suspect #1.
to fire the coils from the converter, you can scratch a ground on the wires that goes to the converter on the ICU plug socket, that would tell that the converter and coils are working, no need to take the plugs out, the crackling sound from the block is audible two blocks away :lol: Tell me that it has a weak spark after that :lol:

I could be mistaken I just know it was an advancer.

Are you suggesting the coils are grounded out by the converter? Because according to my factory manual they are constantly grounded, and the converter sends a minimum of 100v to the primary side... So I would have to touch 100v to the coil connection briefly to get it to spark.

Attachment 27913

Attachment 27914

I mean the signal wire that feeds the converter, not the output, the output is pretty high voltage, I would stay away from it. They are blue black wires and blue yellow if I recall correctly.

Edit to clear the confusion, here's how Microsquirt triggers my converter unit

In my 47 years of working on cars and 34 years teaching Vocational classes in Tune-up and Emission Control, I never heard of a coil that did not have voltage to the + side of the primary with the key on.

So I went out to my bike tonight, removed the seat, disconnected the #2 coil primary 2 wire connector, turned on the ignition, and measured approx 12 v (Key on, Not cranking).

You need to start there, if there is no spark.

Also, what they show in the manual for checking spark is bogus. A spark that jumps a 1mm (.040") gap out of the cylinder may not jump the plug gap in the cylinder with 150psi compression. The spark should jump at least a 1/4" gap outside the cylinder.

Hope you are making progress. It sucks having a bike you can't ride.

I'm not sure what to tell you... my schematics (from Honda) are quite clear, the coils are grounded permanently. The coil on my bike has, and has always had a ground from the coil straight to the frame an inch away. It's most definitely powered by the converter. If you say you have 12v at the coil you must have a totally different wiring harness.

I have a 2005 Honda VTR1000F5 SuperHawk, which I bought new from the dealer in August, 2005. The only technical mods are EBC HH pads, shimmed needles and adjusted pilot screws.

I don't know how you are interpreting the manual, but I can tell you from experience that there are many mistakes in some manuals. I had students try to torque 8mm bolts to 75 foot pounds, and break them, because that's the spec the manual called out. When it should have been 22 foot pounds. Just like Barak Obama, service manuals are not always right.

Anyone who knows the principles of ignition will tell you that the spark test in the manual is no good. It should be a strong, snapping 1/4" spark. I've diagnosed literally hundreds of no spark conditions (my classes took in an average of 16 outside customer cars each week for diagnosis and repair), but it's not easy to do if I'm not there. And since you're in Nebraska.....

I'm not sure where the obama thing came from... lol Nor do I know what you're talking about when you say "the spark test in the manual is no good." We're all in agreement I do not have spark. Here is the manual for your bike as well as mine, and if you interpret the text and a very straightforward schematic differently than I do, please share. The coils are grounded. The converter sends 100v to the primary.
http://www.superhawk996.net/Honda_VT...ice_Manual.pdf
Page 371 you will find the schematic for after 00' hawks such as yours. you will see the green wire from your coil connector goes to a frame ground. I highlighted it for you here:Attachment 27912



Also, I hope you know I mean no offense and I don't mean to be a pain in the ass.

That wiring diagram is showing voltage flow from the coil secondary winding going through the spark plug and across the plug gap to ground.

The primary and secondary windings on most coils (except some waste spark DIS coils) are connected, but the primary voltage is not high enough to jump the plug gap. When the primary voltage is switched off by a transistor, a high voltage spark is induced in the secondary (5,000 to 15,000 volts) which then jumps the plug gap to ground, producing the spark and igniting the air/fuel mixture....then we have fun.

The ignition module contains the transistor which switches the primary voltage on and off.

Again, check all connections including taking them apart and inspecting for corrosion.

My ridding buddy's 851 Ducati developed a misfire on one cylinder a few months ago. I went to his house and, after pulling his tank, checked for spark and found none on #1 cyl. Checked coil primary and secondary resistance = okay. Looked at his wiring diagram, and saw that his Duc had 2 ignition modules (1 for each cyl) mounted under the tail section. Checked the modules and found one had a loose connector. Pushed the connector into place, and waalaaa....running on both cylinders again. Sometimes it's simple, and sometimes it's a real bitch.

Save yourself some heartache... does the bike run once started?
You can check for a STRONG blue spark with the plug installed in the lead and ground it while cranking... if yellowish, then you need to try a diff plug, if no change... it's gonna be a weak coil.
There are several posts in the forum about removing the resistor in the plug lead and replacing it with a copper slug, weak spark is a common problem.
If the bike tends to fire on one cylinder, you can confirm by starting the bike and using a plastic screwdriver handle, and melting it against the exhaust to see which cyl is COLD.
From there you can swap coils front to rear and see if the the COLD cyl follows the coil swap.
I had this issue and had spark... but it was weak, and took a while to figure out it was a WEAK, but not failed coil.

Craftsmen screwdriver handles are perfect for this, learned this trick, troubleshooting rough running, piston aircraft engines. BTW, once it runs a couple minutes, they will both SEEM hot... so get it running from a cold start and get it to the ONE cyl, rpm range right away to do your check. Mine was detected at idle, it would reve normal from about 1500rpm and up, but simply ran like hell, under load... riding.

If it just wont start at all, your likely looking at a STAND, NEUTRAL, ignition, or maybe a kill switch... the list can go on...

BTW you've highlighted the lead SHIELDING, it does just go to ground...? The resistor is NOT shown. Regardless of what the voltage before and after the coil is, the coil boosts it appropriately, to fire the plug under extreme pressure... compression. Your bike will idle on one cyl, you may have to adjust your idle up to make it run long enough to do the check I have posted above... Find the cold cyl, then swap plugs, then coils, and determine which the COLD cyl follows.

I have zero spark at either coil. Again, I am checking with a spark tester, so it can't possibly be the plugs.

If it just wont start at all, your likely looking at a STAND, NEUTRAL, ignition, or maybe a kill switch...

Page 17-0 (317 of PDF) has just the ignition diagram.

as impossible as it seems, it also shows the coils grounded with pulsed power. (never heard of such a thing before)

Are you getting the 0.7V pulse to the ICM from the pulse generator that it needs?

Finally a believer! lol I just went out and bought a craftsman meter that had a peak voltage function, and tried to test it last night but by the time I read the instruction manual and figured out how to calibrate it, the battery on my bike was dead lol I think I did see 1.26v but like I said I wasn't using it right so I will check again tonight with a charged battery.

On an ancient breaker point ignition the coil primary windings are grounded during Dwell time, which is when the points are closed. This allows voltage to flow through the primary long enough to build a strong magnetic field (coil saturation). When the points open the ground is broken, voltage flow stops and the magnetic field collapses cutting across the secondary windings. The high voltage spark is then induced in the secondary windings and travels to the spark plug, jumping the gap to ground.

On electronic ignition systems a transistor is the electronic switch which makes and breaks the path to ground, replacing the points. The transistor is located in the ignition module, along with a bunch of other electronic stuff.

If the coil saturation is not sufficient (caused by too wide of a point gap) the spark will be weak. Transistors solved this problem. But if some of the primary or secondary windings are shorted (not to ground, but to each other) the spark will be weak as well. This is why I don't trust the type of spark test in the manual.

And the color of the spark doesn't mean s---. If the spark can jump at least 1/4", it can have polka dots and it will still ignite the air/fuel mixture. On todays ignition systems the spark can usually jump 1/2" or more with 50,000 volts maximum coil output.

That's just the basics. The pulse generator triggers the spark (in older terms on cars, it's called a magnetic pick-up coil).

Thats all fine and dandy, except I still don't know which "spark test from the book" you're referring to. The very first thing I did was pop off the plug wire and put a screw driver in it. didn't jump anywhere. Then I hooked up a spark tester (the kind that clamp to something and just have an adjustable gap) and I clipped it directly to the negative terminal of the battery. I'm not sure if you're thinking I haven't tested well enough for spark, but like I've said, I have ZERO spark, not weak, or short, or funny colored. None. Out of either coil.

Alright well I couldn't get my stupid meter's peak voltage feature to work, it gets hung up on "calibrating" which is really just ranging... wish it were manual range. but when I put it to read ac voltage on the pulse generator it clearly shows upwards of 600mv, so at least I can see it is pulsing. I did do a parasitic draw test, and I'm showing 3.89mA, and the spec is .1mA... so I've got a (relatively) big drain somewhere. I tried pulling out my fuses and it remained. unplugged my icm and converter, the plugs for the hand controls, and a couple other random ones and it remained, so I'm not sure where it is but I'm thinking this is my issue... I did notice my new battery didn't last very long when cranking... so I guess I've got some tracking to do...

I think I may just redo my whole wiring harness from scratch... the last guy did a number on it... Anybody know where I could buy the male connectors for our harness?

I suspect the ICM it may has a failing component or it don't receive the proper signal, neutral or stand.
Still disconnect the ICM plug and connect the two wires to ground briefly as shown on the picture of post #13 and lift it, this will trigger spark if the converter is healthy. This will narrow down to the ICM, check for proper ground on the two safety wires, +12, grnd, etc...
These wires are signal wires, there is no high voltage and it's something I have done before.
I hope you'll find the problem before the season kicks off.

Good plan I'll try this before work.
but I have 39 times the allowable parasitic draw... don't you think that may have something to do with it? the book mentions low battery voltage as a cause for no spark...