7moore7

The gearing discussion will transcend to another thread. Give it another month or two and it will resurface, feeding on another host until it burns out, then go back into hibernation waiting for it's next victim.

P.S. I say we skip over all of this 15/44 nonsense and go straight to 12/60. Then you could tow a small trailer up a steep hill with the 'Hawk and it could be a sport/touring/work bike!

geekonamotorcycle

haha Burn

nath981

Lighten up and get out the marshmallows. Many of us have experienced this if you have time to investigate. Cost me a week of screwing around before I got it running again, and 2 batteries and 2 R/Rs.

Yeah and I felt a lot better when she put that enema bag away too, and it wasn't because it fulfilled it's intended purpose.

smokinjoe73

See now thats a crappy quote tweety. Always better is not the same as one out accelerates the other. So of course a stunt bike is too low but within reason.

nath981

No, tweety is right, the correct gearing is better, albeit it's a matter of "better for what purpose" which makes the answer a dependent variable

I love 15/44 gearing for strafing the twisties between 4 and 7000 rpms in sixth gear.

And gaging by how my bike runs, I would think that 15/44 (vs OEM) would be the first to 160mph given same rider on the same bike.

7moore7

This is probably plays a much bigger part of the equation than it's being given credit for...

killer5280

My point is that is basically a five speed anyway. Like I said in my previous post, even with stock gearing there is only one turn on the roads I usually ride where I shift into first, and I don't like downshifting into first when riding fast anyway if I can help it because of the clunky 1-2 shift on the Hawk. In my case first is just for starting off. So with 15/43 it's a closer ratio five speed, which is fine with me. Running one gear lower in a higher geared setup is not the same thing; the shorter geared bike will always have advantages in some areas.
The loss of top speed with shorter gearing is debatable, but is totally moot in my case. I almost never ride over 100 mph and never ride anywhere near top speed, so I don't care if my bike tops out at 155 or 162 or whatever. It makes no difference to me.
Like I said, gearing is about tradeoffs, and certainly depends on the roads you ride and the type of riding you do. There is no one correct answer for the street because conditions vary so widely.
Saying that there is one correct setup for street gearing is like saying brunettes are always better than blondes or vice versa.

8541Hawk

I think we covered this before but as I'm not sure if you are just trying to divert the topic to something else, I will cover the "top speed" issue once again.

First, the listed "top speed" on the Gearing Commander: Motorcycle Speed, RPM, Chain & Sprockets Calculator site with 16\41 gearing is 178.1 @10k not 185+.

What they don't include in this number is the phenomenon of "tire slip" at these speeds. Instead of explaining it again, do your own research on the topic. I will say, that in my experience, a factor of 10% is a good constant for the 100-200 mph range.

If we include the 10% "tire slip" the 178.1 top speed (@10k rpm) of 16\41 gearing turns into 160.29 which is dead on in my experience.

Also (@10k RPM) you get the following "top speeds"
16\43 = 152.82
15\44 = 140.04

and yes I know the engine can hit 10.3K but I'm trying to keep it simple.

Lets look at the numbers here. Leaving out that if you ran the bike in the 6-9K range instead of the 4-7K range, you would get a lot more squirt out of the corners.

With 15\44 gearing 4-7K is 62mph to 109mph in 6th gear (which by the way is an "over drive" gear ratio of 25\26 in the transmission)

Now if you change to 16\43 gearing and run in 5th gear, the RPM needed to run the 62mph to 109mph range is between 4120RPM to 7200RPM. As you need to turn a few more RPM to achieve the same speed the overall gear ratio is just a touch lower and you are also a few RPM closer to the torque & horsepower peaks.

Which set up do you think will accelerate faster in this situation?



I will have to disagree with you here on 2 points. First the 15\44 gearing will only do a little over 140mph

But on a serious side, the limiting factor for the 1\4 mile times on all the tests of this bike has been the inability to get a good launch.

Every Drag strip test (with 16\41 gearing) made the same comment. That you can't get a really good launch with this bike. The clutch grabs and lifts the front end if you try to give it any real throttle from a standing start.

Now lower the gearing to 15\44 and the bike has to be a real bitch from a standing start.

So, with the average rider, you just might get a better launch with the 16\43 gearing and then it just might be a lot closer or even the opposite of what you are assuming.

8541Hawk

Well this sums it up right here.

I do use all 6 of my gears, so that is why I gear different.

If you want a 5 speed bike, cool and then the gearing makes some sense.

If you want to keep the bike a 6 speed then the 15\43 - 15\44 gearing is too low IMHO.

1971allchaos

All this bricker over the attempts to help a new member (in flat land, and bumper to bumper traffic) tear the tranny out of his bike.
My opinion didn't seem to cover any of the options. Yet Stock front gear of 16 and a 43 tooth in the rear(520 conversion). Will carry my wife and myself thru the twisties at fine speed of 62mph on Hwy 129(got the ticket to prove the speed). and accelerate fast enough thru 3rd gear to shame a late model vette. with my wife waving at the driver....
Yet i wait to see 150mph on the Shawk..

nath981

You need to practice using the gearing commander lest you be demoted from platoon leader to a lowly private. haha

186.7mph is over 185mph, that is 10,300rpm, 190/55 tire, 16/41
160.3mph @10,300rpm,180/55 tire,15/44


tire slippage? for a person who is trying to keep it simple, you're getting pretty sophisticated there Mr. Perfect, perhaps even a little **** trying to justify your position.

Anyway I didn't feel any tire slippage or i would have slid back on the seat a little. haha. Is tire slippage down a hill with a tail wind the same as going uphill with a head wind? Let's get all these qualifiers in there so we can have all the numbers perfectly accurate. WTF


15/44 squirts out of corners between 4 and 7000rpms fast enough to spin up the rear tire, why do i need more? I don't, that's why it's correct for me.

get your numbers straight there Einstein. Anyway, what's the big deal, 140 150 160, doesn't take much skill to turn the throttle and keep it there until it hits the limiter. First year riders do it all the time.

Yeah, that Superhawk is a nasty machine. High profile drag racers all fear that tremendous power and that finicky clutch, so you better all run 16/41 gearing. And, if you choose to ignore that warning, at your own peril of course, and launch that beast with 15/44, you better get your wheelie bar on.

I respect what you know about the superhawk, however, it's obvious that your intent is nothing more than to diminish every opinion I express for some perverted reason of which i'm really not interested. So i used your methods plus to show you what it looks like from the other end. One upsmanship, my dogs bigger than yours......pretty juvenile **** huh.

8541Hawk

First of all if you put a 190 tire on there, yes the numbers will change. Second,if you actually read my post, you would see I clearly stated my numbers were at 10K




You know I haven't once attacked you personally , yet you continue to throw in the personal jabs any chance you get.... kind of poor form.

Now the subject of tire slip...... yeah I'm just making **** up now.... 'cause I have nothing better to do.....

Maybe you should do a little research and we can have a talk about it sometime if you wish.


I find it kind of hard to believe that you can spin the tire up @4K in 6th gear but if you say so. I do know that my bike can accelerate at WOT in 5th with 16\43 gearing (which is lower overall gearing than 15\44 in 6th) with no issues and no tire spin. So either you have one hell of a motor or you might need to continue working on the rear suspension set up.

Again with the personal attacks....... and I do stand by the numbers i posted and the real point (which you have seemed to miss once again) is why give up 20MPH of top end if there is no real reason to do so.


I do like how you really try to twist every word I say. But to totally clear things up, are you saying a VTR is an easy bike to launch hard?


Sorry to burst your bubble but you really are not that important to me to spend the time,that you imagine I do, to diminish every opinion you have.

Now what, IMHO, I have done was use facts to support my opinion on street gearing for this bike. I have tried to show, using acceleration, cruse speeds and top end that there is no real advantage to gearing this bike too low.

I guess that is just juvenile....huh

8541Hawk

You know I was going to walk away from this thread but your comments about tire slip really has rubbed me the wrong way.

I am many things, *******, *****, stubborn bastard but I am not a liar. You might not have meant it but from this end is sure feels like you are at least implying that I am.

Maybe you can enlighten me a bit, as by your reply you believe tire slip is non existent.

First, if you run at a constant speed on the open road, why does the rear tire wear out faster than the front? They are both going the same speed on the same road conditions. Is it possible that the rear tire needs to slip a little in order to create the friction need to provide traction to drive the bike forward? Though I am open to hear your opinion on this.

Second, Why can't a bike hit the top speed that the gearing calculations says it should achieve? With your 15\44 gearing you should hit 160.3 as you can hit the rev limiter. I will guarantee that the bike will not exceed 145 with that gearing.

I am so sure of this I am will to make a little wager.... if you can show me a calibrated radar run or even a dyno run, which shows top speed of 155 with 15\44 gearing, a 10.3k rev limit, 180\55\17 rear tire and stock transmission gears, I will not only leave this forum and never post again, I will also give you my bike. Not only that but I will kiss each of your *** cheeks when I drop the bike off...... Are you willing to stand behind what you have said?

Now for the whole issue of this thread. I will post these final numbers so the members here can make their own decisions.

Here is a comparison of speed in gear between 15\44 and 16\42 gearing.
15\44 16\42
6th @ 1030 rpm - @10300 rpm 5th @ 1030rpm - 10300rpm
16mph 160.3mph 15.9mph 159.4mph

Looks pretty close to the same to me......

5th 14.3mph 142.7mph 4th 14.3mph 142.7mph

exactly the same

4th 12.8mph 127.7mph 3rd 12.1mph 120.5mph

So your 15\44 is a little higher gearing here

3rd 10.8mph 107.9mph 2nd 9.5mph 95mph

Still real close but 15\44 is a touch higher

2nd 8.5mph 85mph 1st 6.3mph 63mph


So with this information, the way I see things, is that what you have really done with 15\44 gearing is given up your 6th gear and replaced it with a lower 1st gear.

For street riding, this makes no sense. By eliminating 6th you have not only lost what top end the bike has, you also get even worse fuel economy by needing to spin the engine up higher for even moderate hwy speeds. Now your first response will be that you don't care about top end or fuel economy, which is fine but what have you gained by giving these things up? A faster accelerating 1st gear? Not a good trade off in my book.

So yes 1st gear is lower with 15\44 gearing but anywhere else a 16\42 geared bike just needs to shift 1 less time (which should aid in acceleration) and will pull, for all practical purposes, the same as a 15\44 geared bike..... well until you top out and then it will just walk away from you.

That is why I personally think that gearing the bike that low gains absolutely nothing on the street. In a track situation things can be and usually are different.

So call me all the names in the book but until you can come up with some data to support your claims, suggesting 15\44 gearing is poor advice.

smokinjoe73

Wow we should just ban this whole topic. Not only can no one agree but we may all kill each other over a completely dumb *** topic that really is down to personal preference anyway. Lets just agree to disagree.

nath981

Well I'm not going to argue with the accuracy of your self-assessment. It's little wonder that I not interested in interacting with the person you describe. Now goodbye.

8541Hawk

Yes it is a personal preference or choice. Just like running an extended swingarm, a 240 rear tire or figuring out how to rig up a Holley double pumper would be a personal preference or choice, which doesn't mean it is a good one.

So if you want to run something, more power to you. It is your bike and you can do whatever you want.

Now if you post up saying that your idea is a good mod and others should run it, well IMHO you should be able to back up your claims with some data.

While this stuff isn't rocket science, it is science. The gearing numbers are rather easy to plot out.

I guess my mistake was in thinking that this was a "big boys" forum where we could actually have a worth while discussion about a topic without the personal attacks.

Which IMHO really takes away from this place. How can you have a forum that is worth a **** if any silly idea can be posted up as a "good" mod and then be defended as, oh it's a "personal preference"?

So instead of having a list of good, reliable mods that actually increase performance, you end up with a list of ***** nilly "personal preferences" which may or may not work.

Is it really unreasonable to ask someone to prove the claims that they have made?

Is it also unreasonable to not accept "it feels better" or "it accelerates faster" with no data ,at all, to back it up as proof?

geekonamotorcycle

so yah I started the thread and decided to stay stock since I dont ever WOT the bike neways.

I am curious about this 520 540 business what does that all mean? advantages/disadvantages

7moore7

520, 525,530 are all chain strength/weight.

The higher the second two numbers (20,25,30), the thicker the links- adds weight, but also makes for a stronger/longer lasting chain.

So some people convert to a 520 chain and sprocket to take off of that pesky rotational weight- highly popular in the racing crowd.

8541Hawk

This shows what the numbers mean



So a "520" chain has a pin spacing of 5\8" and a width of 2\8"
a "530" chain has a pin spacing of 5\8" and a width of 3\8"

and so on.....

7moore7

I couldn't remember where you had that graphic- I'm saving it cause I knew it just came up recently...

smokinjoe73

In my experience doing a 520 conversion really helps seat of the pants rev speed through the gears. BUT for longevity on the street I stay with the lumbering 530 to avoid maintinence woes.