Fast guys with front end/swingarm swaps
07-31-2006, 08:59 PM
#1
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Fast guys with front end/swingarm swaps
Okay, all you guys with the 929/954/RC51 retrofitted front ends and 900RR braced and RC51 fitted swingarms, I gotta very important question for ya. Now, before you answer, be honest with yourself and answer this question: "Am I really that fast?"
Okay, if you answered "Yes", do you do trackdays? This I would like to know.
Next question: Do these modifications really make that much of a difference on the VTR? I'd think that with the tuned flex and all, stiffening the front and the rear still leaves that big hinge in the middle.
When I ride my bike aggressively it tends to move around some, not enough to make me uncomfortable, but enough to know that if I push any harder then I may be getting myself into something I don't want to...and I'm running some pretty good aftermarket stuff as it is (springs, Gold valves, Fox shock, Qualifiers).
So really, compared to how the 'Hawk was before you modified it, how does the bike do in quick left-right transitions, bumpy corners, and really aggressive riding? How is the comfort? Does the bike turn in as easily as before? How's the stability? What were the biggest hurdles to overcome when doing these modifications?
Okay, if you answered "Yes", do you do trackdays? This I would like to know.
Next question: Do these modifications really make that much of a difference on the VTR? I'd think that with the tuned flex and all, stiffening the front and the rear still leaves that big hinge in the middle.
When I ride my bike aggressively it tends to move around some, not enough to make me uncomfortable, but enough to know that if I push any harder then I may be getting myself into something I don't want to...and I'm running some pretty good aftermarket stuff as it is (springs, Gold valves, Fox shock, Qualifiers).
So really, compared to how the 'Hawk was before you modified it, how does the bike do in quick left-right transitions, bumpy corners, and really aggressive riding? How is the comfort? Does the bike turn in as easily as before? How's the stability? What were the biggest hurdles to overcome when doing these modifications?
07-31-2006, 09:28 PM
#2
evil man of nothing
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I feel you have an excellent point. I'm currently updating to an rc51 front end. Funny I just had this discussion with someone. Am I personally going to really feel the handling difference with an Ohlins rear shock and rc51 usd forks and possibly upgraded wheels? Probably not much if at all, but then again I don't have any fantasies about how well I can ride like alot of people do. The stock setup is probably plenty for me. Not that I just learned but unlike many I'm simply honest. I do think I will definitely notice a difference in the upgraded brakes, but I always had a soft spot for the way the bike handled stock and used to ride rings around friends in the turns on "faster" bikes with a stock bike. For more skilled riders and especially those who have more racing experience I feel they will notice more of a difference. As far as the rest of the frame goes I've seen superhawk frames also get additional metal plates welded to the insides of the frame to help stiffen it up. For me I'm doing this as much just for the fun of it as anything else, because I love to work on my cars and bikes and have something a little different and also dare I say it because it will simply look good. But I'll let you know once I get it all done. May have computrack set it up properly too once it's done because it took the local guy by me only a couple minutes to completely go right over my head with his explanations-they're really intelligent when it comes to this stuff and they set up custom bikes all the time and make them handle safely and properly.
07-31-2006, 10:05 PM
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Wow, so you're going all out with the Ohlins, eh? Which year RC51 forks? The '02-on were upgraded with Showa's latest generation of forks, with the external compression adjuster. I agree with what you say. See, the thing is this, the Superhawk is a great streetbike but I can push it hard enough on the street, nevermind the track, to upset the chassis. What's the source of the instability? Forks, swingarm, or frame? None of the three are really that substantial, though the F3 had essentially the same 41mm forks and they never had these issues when pushed hard. And as for the stock swingarm, I don't really feel the instability is coming from back there. It feels like either the frame or the forks. Which leads me to the conclusion that the frame does indeed flex more than the other two. I just wanted some first hand experience to back up this conclusion.
Oh, and remember Moriwaki's project in '98-99 when they built the "race" VTR? They didn't swap out forks or swingarm, but they DID brace the frame. Just something to think about....
Oh, and remember Moriwaki's project in '98-99 when they built the "race" VTR? They didn't swap out forks or swingarm, but they DID brace the frame. Just something to think about....
07-31-2006, 10:16 PM
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No, I don't do track days. No track remotely close but that's changed now. (thinking cheap track bike)
CBR600F4i front(full racetech), VTR Ohlins rear (previously penske cbr900 rear) All sold. :-(
I got more feedback from both ends which GREATLY increased my confidence in the sum total of things. I run full sport tires too. I think the results of great shock naturally leads to thoughts of a more rigid suspension but I haven't pursued it.
I don't push it to the absolute edge on the street but I'm never left behind and most of the time I'm waiting on others. If that's what you really mean.... :-)
Now, I'm back to the way this used bike came (racetech OEM front/stock rear) and I don't really care to push it all that much. I still enjoy riding it (mmmm, torque) but above 7/10ths or so, it's just not really fun anymore.
What's easier for the DIY'er: swap ends or beef up the frame?
CBR600F4i front(full racetech), VTR Ohlins rear (previously penske cbr900 rear) All sold. :-(
I got more feedback from both ends which GREATLY increased my confidence in the sum total of things. I run full sport tires too. I think the results of great shock naturally leads to thoughts of a more rigid suspension but I haven't pursued it.
I don't push it to the absolute edge on the street but I'm never left behind and most of the time I'm waiting on others. If that's what you really mean.... :-)
Now, I'm back to the way this used bike came (racetech OEM front/stock rear) and I don't really care to push it all that much. I still enjoy riding it (mmmm, torque) but above 7/10ths or so, it's just not really fun anymore.
What's easier for the DIY'er: swap ends or beef up the frame?
08-01-2006, 08:43 AM
#6
ole dirty bastard
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I am working on rc front and rear mods myself as we speak.
im doing it because i can ,no other reason.
but i am also going to brace the frame,because if you look at it.
there seems to be a great oppurtunity for it to flex from neck area to cast side plates .
mike e.
im doing it because i can ,no other reason.
but i am also going to brace the frame,because if you look at it.
there seems to be a great oppurtunity for it to flex from neck area to cast side plates .
mike e.
08-01-2006, 08:46 AM
#7
ole dirty bastard
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Originally Posted by Hawkrider
Wow, so you're going all out with the Ohlins, eh? Which year RC51 forks? The '02-on were upgraded with Showa's latest generation of forks, with the external compression adjuster. I agree with what you say. See, the thing is this, the Superhawk is a great streetbike but I can push it hard enough on the street, nevermind the track, to upset the chassis. What's the source of the instability? Forks, swingarm, or frame? None of the three are really that substantial, though the F3 had essentially the same 41mm forks and they never had these issues when pushed hard. And as for the stock swingarm, I don't really feel the instability is coming from back there. It feels like either the frame or the forks. Which leads me to the conclusion that the frame does indeed flex more than the other two. I just wanted some first hand experience to back up this conclusion.
Oh, and remember Moriwaki's project in '98-99 when they built the "race" VTR? They didn't swap out forks or swingarm, but they DID brace the frame. Just something to think about....
Oh, and remember Moriwaki's project in '98-99 when they built the "race" VTR? They didn't swap out forks or swingarm, but they DID brace the frame. Just something to think about....
I'll rewrite it later for you.
08-01-2006, 09:49 AM
#9
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Hmm, I don't remember the 900RR forks, but I do remember the swingarm now. I wonder which they did first? I just don't think the swingarm bracing would help that much for some reason. I may be wrong though.
Man, I'd love to ride someone's 'Hawk that has these mods just to compare the feel. Anyone close to upstate NY?
??: 
Man, I'd love to ride someone's 'Hawk that has these mods just to compare the feel. Anyone close to upstate NY?
??:
08-01-2006, 10:51 AM
#11
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Are you going to Pocono on the 12th??
I noticed improvements with both the Penski shock and the Race Tech springs / valves.
The newest improvement is RC51 calipers, master and 320mm iron rotors. The factroy brakes scare me!
I have an RC51 but haven't had it to the track yet so I can't compair.
I noticed improvements with both the Penski shock and the Race Tech springs / valves.
The newest improvement is RC51 calipers, master and 320mm iron rotors. The factroy brakes scare me!
I have an RC51 but haven't had it to the track yet so I can't compair.
08-01-2006, 11:20 AM
#12
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Ok here's my .02. I never thought of doing the front end mod UNTIL I started doing track days, the stock stuff was fine for street IMO. After about 4 track days I started feeling a shudder when braking hard, (brakes another reason I modded), and it would wander out in the corners. I felt like I had to fight with it to hold my line. After the change it felt alot easier to go faster because it felt more planted. It also flicked into corners instead of making it drop in it just di it with ease. Yes you lose a little stability with the shorter forks,(929/954, GSXR, 1000rr etc.) I'm not sure about the RC becuse they are longer so it's probably not the same. I put Heli-bars under the triple so I didn't lose much length but it's still shorter than stock.
After doing the front I could notice the rear more but I got a shock and it did make an improvement over stock. I haven't done my 900rr brace yet so I can' answer that. I do still get a little high speed wobble in turn 2 at Jennings which is a 120mph bend but it's no where near as bad as it was.
Even with my heavily modded front end, (GSXR 1000 forks and calipers, 929/954 triples and mod. RC51 wheel and rotors) it was really pretty easy. The hardest part I had was getting the wheel but that was my own doing.
Was it worth it? I think so, I had a blast doing it and learned some stuff along the way and the brakes alone,(320mm rotors and better calipers) was worth the cost. Am I fast? Not as fast as some faster than others, I run in the front half of the intermediate group. Oh and as far as comparing them to oem with work, you still can't get the extra stffness you get from the usd forks and thicker triples IMO.
Not as good as the one that got wiped out but oh well.
After doing the front I could notice the rear more but I got a shock and it did make an improvement over stock. I haven't done my 900rr brace yet so I can' answer that. I do still get a little high speed wobble in turn 2 at Jennings which is a 120mph bend but it's no where near as bad as it was.
Even with my heavily modded front end, (GSXR 1000 forks and calipers, 929/954 triples and mod. RC51 wheel and rotors) it was really pretty easy. The hardest part I had was getting the wheel but that was my own doing.
Was it worth it? I think so, I had a blast doing it and learned some stuff along the way and the brakes alone,(320mm rotors and better calipers) was worth the cost. Am I fast? Not as fast as some faster than others, I run in the front half of the intermediate group. Oh and as far as comparing them to oem with work, you still can't get the extra stffness you get from the usd forks and thicker triples IMO.
Not as good as the one that got wiped out but oh well.
08-01-2006, 11:40 AM
#13
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I'm running the same setup that hawkrider has on my hawk but with gixxer1000 brakes. I've not noticed an issue yet but would a fork brace fix the front end or do you really have to goto a bigger/beefier fork? the swingarm is definetely something I'm curious about but I don't want to have to get rid of my fox shock so a brace added on would be better... unless the modified rc51 swingarm still uses the stock shock setup (can't remember if the guy said it did or not..)
08-01-2006, 11:59 AM
#14
ole dirty bastard
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Originally Posted by EngineNoO9
I'm running the same setup that hawkrider has on my hawk but with gixxer1000 brakes. I've not noticed an issue yet but would a fork brace fix the front end or do you really have to goto a bigger/beefier fork? the swingarm is definetely something I'm curious about but I don't want to have to get rid of my fox shock so a brace added on would be better... unless the modified rc51 swingarm still uses the stock shock setup (can't remember if the guy said it did or not..)
08-02-2006, 01:16 AM
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No9,
Don't know if you remember, but I have a fork brace as well. It's been on there so long I can't remember what it feels like without it, but I can say that I never really felt much improvement with the brace. I added the brace back in like '01 or '02 so it's been a long time.
Don't know if you remember, but I have a fork brace as well. It's been on there so long I can't remember what it feels like without it, but I can say that I never really felt much improvement with the brace. I added the brace back in like '01 or '02 so it's been a long time.
08-02-2006, 01:26 AM
#16
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ah. didn't know you had one... maybe swapping the fronts does make that much of a difference... I wouldn't mind doing a 929 swap and some type of swingarm deal... I'm long past the point of no return on my bike. lol
08-02-2006, 08:03 AM
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The stiffer fork legs make the steering more precise. Better than a fork brace. It is a difference you can immediately identify. The bike handles much better with a new front end.
It's true, the Moriwaki bike and Bob Hayashida's race bike had 45mm 900RR forks. The stanchions were a special order part, longer than the stock stanchions. I was considering that route, when I measured my friends RC51 forks and decided that they would probably fit. Bob told me he didn't think so, so I had some trepidation, but went for it anyway.
As far as tuned flex, you are right about the chassis, but I believe the forks were a cost-saving compromise on the VTR. The bike handles better and goes around corners faster on a race track with a beefier front end. Period. If you don't believe it, you haven't tried it.
I don't think a stiffer swingarm is a good idea. It is definitely a part of the tuned flex of the chassis. The torsional stiffness of the chassis provides the spring rate to maintain contact pressure of the tires on the track when the bike is leaned over. Too much chassis sitffness upsets the balance of contact pressures. It is a tuned system. The VTR chassis is not very stiff and the race bikes had a lot of bracing to stiffen the main chassis, before a stiffer swingarm was added.
That's my .02
It's true, the Moriwaki bike and Bob Hayashida's race bike had 45mm 900RR forks. The stanchions were a special order part, longer than the stock stanchions. I was considering that route, when I measured my friends RC51 forks and decided that they would probably fit. Bob told me he didn't think so, so I had some trepidation, but went for it anyway.
As far as tuned flex, you are right about the chassis, but I believe the forks were a cost-saving compromise on the VTR. The bike handles better and goes around corners faster on a race track with a beefier front end. Period. If you don't believe it, you haven't tried it.
I don't think a stiffer swingarm is a good idea. It is definitely a part of the tuned flex of the chassis. The torsional stiffness of the chassis provides the spring rate to maintain contact pressure of the tires on the track when the bike is leaned over. Too much chassis sitffness upsets the balance of contact pressures. It is a tuned system. The VTR chassis is not very stiff and the race bikes had a lot of bracing to stiffen the main chassis, before a stiffer swingarm was added.
That's my .02
08-02-2006, 09:47 AM
#18
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Just to clarify, I too think it's the front the really benefits from rigidity.
The back is fine with a quality shock and good rubber on the street. My ohlins was a set and forget affair. All out track blazing may need frame bracing and a beefed up rear but personally I'd move on to other rides like a dedicated track bike before doing that. I've wanted to mod a rear just for bling factor tho'.
The back is fine with a quality shock and good rubber on the street. My ohlins was a set and forget affair. All out track blazing may need frame bracing and a beefed up rear but personally I'd move on to other rides like a dedicated track bike before doing that. I've wanted to mod a rear just for bling factor tho'.
08-02-2006, 02:12 PM
#19
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True. I never felt any limitations. Racers going 9-10 seconds a lap faster notice the chassis limitations. I was a 3-4X a year track rider going as fast as I could, passing lots of people on "better" bikes and was never limited by the chassis.
08-02-2006, 07:55 PM
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Mine came with racetech springs/valves and the damper rod mod. Later, I added a brace, clean/flush and added silkolene back to racetech's specs. The brace "told me" I was on the right track of adding rigidity.
Previously I had an F4i and VTEC VFR both with 43mm front ends. My original 98 was stock but I wasn't really pushing it (mainly around town riding back then=yawn).
I know of at least two other members who gone with the F4i front end. Maybe they will add their 2cents.
Another benefit was braking. Had more feel/feedback of what the tire was doing. I'm speaking in past tense as I've sold most of my goodies in preps of selling the bike for house funds. I just can't seem to place the ad......
Previously I had an F4i and VTEC VFR both with 43mm front ends. My original 98 was stock but I wasn't really pushing it (mainly around town riding back then=yawn).
I know of at least two other members who gone with the F4i front end. Maybe they will add their 2cents.
Another benefit was braking. Had more feel/feedback of what the tire was doing. I'm speaking in past tense as I've sold most of my goodies in preps of selling the bike for house funds. I just can't seem to place the ad......
08-02-2006, 10:46 PM
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Greg,
I rode for a short time with a stock front end and a Fox rear shock lengthened 4-5mm. The next mod was a fork brace. I ride (rode, damm it) Kingsbury Grade every day, a twisty mountain road, and I was immediately impressed by the improved precision. The handling was just more crisp. I did my first track day that summer and it was a completely new world. Way different than riding on the street. The back straight at Thunderhill was terrifying because i was trying to hang with faster riders and didn't think I could get slowed down for turn 14. My brake rotors were black at the end of the day.
My good friend Bob was telling me how great the Super Hawk was when you put a motor in it and had a set of used JE pistons that he sold me for $50, and hooked me up with the tips and techniques for building it. I became obsessed with it at that point (much to my wife's chagrine) After my experience with braking, I didn't want to have that much horsepower and not put some legs under it. So I started looking for fork swap ideas.
I got it built that winter, and holy crap! What a street bike! Must have steering damper. The front end and everything about the bike was just way better. I went from scared, running 2:23s at T-Hill to aggressive and turning consistent 2:14s in one season. I didn't get lap times with the blue bike and Moriwaki exhaust with an HRC ignition, but it was way faster than the year before. I was inside and outside passing. My next session was going to be in the A group, but my house project kept me busy ane then I smashed her to bits.
Do it. You will not be disappointed.
I wish I still had that bike. Ain't been the same since.
I rode for a short time with a stock front end and a Fox rear shock lengthened 4-5mm. The next mod was a fork brace. I ride (rode, damm it) Kingsbury Grade every day, a twisty mountain road, and I was immediately impressed by the improved precision. The handling was just more crisp. I did my first track day that summer and it was a completely new world. Way different than riding on the street. The back straight at Thunderhill was terrifying because i was trying to hang with faster riders and didn't think I could get slowed down for turn 14. My brake rotors were black at the end of the day.
My good friend Bob was telling me how great the Super Hawk was when you put a motor in it and had a set of used JE pistons that he sold me for $50, and hooked me up with the tips and techniques for building it. I became obsessed with it at that point (much to my wife's chagrine) After my experience with braking, I didn't want to have that much horsepower and not put some legs under it. So I started looking for fork swap ideas.
I got it built that winter, and holy crap! What a street bike! Must have steering damper. The front end and everything about the bike was just way better. I went from scared, running 2:23s at T-Hill to aggressive and turning consistent 2:14s in one season. I didn't get lap times with the blue bike and Moriwaki exhaust with an HRC ignition, but it was way faster than the year before. I was inside and outside passing. My next session was going to be in the A group, but my house project kept me busy ane then I smashed her to bits.
Do it. You will not be disappointed.
I wish I still had that bike. Ain't been the same since.
08-03-2006, 02:19 PM
#23
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Here's my take on this topic: I help out a couple of times per year with the California Superbike School. That's not to say I'm fast, actually I'm probably pretty average at best. Even so, I've felt the limitation of the front and rear suspensions. Maybe a full RaceTech treatment (mine are stock except for Hyperco rear spring) would be enough, but I'm opting for a GSXR fork swap and a Fox rear shock. Call it the 'bling' factor if you will, but I just want inverted forks and an aftermarket shock.
I've noticed the chassis flex a little as well. I think better working suspension will actually make this better, not worse. Maybe if I was really fast and running slicks the chassis might be the shortcoming, but for me I think it's ok for now. The suspension is where I see the biggest gains.
I've noticed the chassis flex a little as well. I think better working suspension will actually make this better, not worse. Maybe if I was really fast and running slicks the chassis might be the shortcoming, but for me I think it's ok for now. The suspension is where I see the biggest gains.
08-03-2006, 04:34 PM
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Jamie,
I think you'll be surprised how much of the chassis flex is coming from the forks. I'm not super fast either, but I rode on rails with the new front end with my kneepucks on the ground.
I forgot to mention that I had Race Tech springs and revalved the stock front end before swapping.
I think you'll be surprised how much of the chassis flex is coming from the forks. I'm not super fast either, but I rode on rails with the new front end with my kneepucks on the ground.
I forgot to mention that I had Race Tech springs and revalved the stock front end before swapping.
08-03-2006, 10:18 PM
#26
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Hmmm, maybe I'll give this a shot in the winter. Too busy riding now, and not enough time to take on another project.
Thanks for the great info guys. Looks like the front end swap is what I'm looking for.
Thanks for the great info guys. Looks like the front end swap is what I'm looking for.
08-03-2006, 10:25 PM
#27
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Once you get the parts you'll be done in one night, it's that easy. It's just getting all the money and parts together that can be time consuming. Ah winter projects....the only good part of cold weather. 
08-03-2006, 10:31 PM
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Yeah, that's something I'm not used to having lived in Norfolk, VA or more south for the last 14 years. Now I'm in upstate NY and hear that I'm really gonna be shocked come winter time. I've gotta get one of those propane powered blast heaters for my garage!
08-03-2006, 10:36 PM
#29
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Comming from Connecticut originally I can tell you....you're going to need it!! Where you are gets even colder, if you've never been through a brutal NE winter I'm trully sorry for you. I've alredy told my wife I'll go no further north than NC. just can't handle it any more. Good luck.
08-03-2006, 11:33 PM
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Bah! A little snow won't bother me!!!
Already got the largest garden tractor with the blade on the front. Still have to get the snow chains and wheel weights for it. My driveway is looooong, like over 100'.
Already got the largest garden tractor with the blade on the front. Still have to get the snow chains and wheel weights for it. My driveway is looooong, like over 100'.
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