Best mod
03-30-2013, 06:30 AM
#31
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On this Easter weekend maybe it is helpful to remember that while he was on this Earth Jesus only commanded us to to do one thing: Love.
I really don't like seeing stuff like this on my favorite forum!
I really don't like seeing stuff like this on my favorite forum!
03-30-2013, 06:47 AM
#32
El Cheapo
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If you ask WWJD (What Would Jesus Do), I'd imagine he would have saved some $$ by tuning the OEM to suit his riding needs vs converting to USD forks without spending time/effort to tune.
Easiest thing to do; change out the fork oil to different weight to make the fork "feel stiffer".
Easiest thing to do; change out the fork oil to different weight to make the fork "feel stiffer".
03-30-2013, 09:34 AM
#33
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Yes you have tried them on a dirt bike.... not a lot in common with a VTR there and a SuperMoto again completely different type of a bike than a heavy street bike..... so you think that just maybe there might be a difference in the performance out come?
So once again, unless you have ridden a VTR with a USD conversion, you are just assuming and really do not have any real info to add.
So how much does all that mod to USD forks/braced headstock cost vs just getting OEM fork specifically tuned for you specifically to suit your riding?
You have to weigh the cost vs benefit.
Without proper testing or setup, USD or OEM forks are not going to suit your riding, even though you might be able to tell the extra stiffness of USD forks at the seat of your pants, but that can easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200.
You have to weigh the cost vs benefit.
Without proper testing or setup, USD or OEM forks are not going to suit your riding, even though you might be able to tell the extra stiffness of USD forks at the seat of your pants, but that can easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200.
As for what mu USD set up cost.... well SP2 forks with Ohlins valves set up by Dan Kyle.... cost to me $100
Yeah I had to buy a set of springs.Have a nice day, you are on your own.
03-30-2013, 09:36 AM
#34
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Perhaps re read your responses above.
True, works on both sides of the discussion however.. perhaps you could take some of your own advice.
Actually you said you tried it on some other bike,, which has no relevance what so ever on THIS application..
So the snide remark is both uncalled for, and immaterial to THIS discussion.
The actual suspension work is no more costly than doing the same level of work to get the OEM forks to work the best THEY can.. And yet in the end, the OEM forks would still be limiting you in brake performance, and wheel selection.
Very true.... and for many, it is more cost effective to swap to a fork that has more potential in suspension set up, brakes, and lighter weight wheel selection then modifying the OEM forks and being limited to more pricey one off custom components.
Id suggest you price that work again.. Im sure if honest in your pricing at real world costs, you'll come up with a figure much higher then $200.
Swapping to USD forks is more expensive then Modifying OEM forks to be the best they can, if for no other reason you have to source and pay for the USD forks, triple clamps, fender, wheel, brakes, ect...
But in the end you get better brakes, wheel options and suspension using off the shelf or parts yard stuff...
Plus you get to visually modify the bike.
Plus you get to build something more unique that every other rider commonly has in a VTR.
If the OEM brakes meet your needs, the suspension is fine for your riding style and just needs a spring and oil change to meet your goals.. then of course those simple mods are better for you...... It would not meet my goals and needs however.
True, works on both sides of the discussion however.. perhaps you could take some of your own advice.
So the snide remark is both uncalled for, and immaterial to THIS discussion.
Very true.... and for many, it is more cost effective to swap to a fork that has more potential in suspension set up, brakes, and lighter weight wheel selection then modifying the OEM forks and being limited to more pricey one off custom components.
Swapping to USD forks is more expensive then Modifying OEM forks to be the best they can, if for no other reason you have to source and pay for the USD forks, triple clamps, fender, wheel, brakes, ect...
But in the end you get better brakes, wheel options and suspension using off the shelf or parts yard stuff...
Plus you get to visually modify the bike.
Plus you get to build something more unique that every other rider commonly has in a VTR.
If the OEM brakes meet your needs, the suspension is fine for your riding style and just needs a spring and oil change to meet your goals.. then of course those simple mods are better for you...... It would not meet my goals and needs however.
Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-30-2013 at 09:42 AM.
03-30-2013, 09:37 AM
#35
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03-30-2013, 09:40 AM
#36
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If you ask WWJD (What Would Jesus Do), I'd imagine he would have saved some $$ by tuning the OEM to suit his riding needs vs converting to USD forks without spending time/effort to tune.
Easiest thing to do; change out the fork oil to different weight to make the fork "feel stiffer".
Easiest thing to do; change out the fork oil to different weight to make the fork "feel stiffer".
That is not a slam, just an observation.
If folks start discussing the finer points of english literature, I will be able to read the words, but not truly understand the discussion. That's a lot like what has happened in this thread.
No harm no foul... just is.
Have a great weekend... Go ride
Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-30-2013 at 10:10 AM.
03-30-2013, 12:14 PM
#37
El Cheapo
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Seems to me some of you are rather insecure about your riding skills and those of you that went USD forks done so for cosmetic reasons.. without investigating what options you may have with OEM forks.
My experience of OEM vs USD forks are as follow:
I participated in desert racing for 4 years on my XR650R with properly tuned OEM forks,
then converted to USD Ohlins properly tuned for supermotard/track work.
On the streets, without landing tabletops or huge sand dunes, no one would be bale to tell the stiffness gained changing to USD forks if OEM fork were properly tuned.
Besides the XR650R, I've also done USD forks conversions on SV650S for track use, sure USD forks look cool, but extra "stiffnes" isn't always a good thing.
The whole concept of suspension is to soak up bumps so you don't feel them. Not to get "stiffer" or better brakes in the process. You spend all the $$ to get better performance to go faster, why would you want better brakes?
all they do is slow you down.
My experience of OEM vs USD forks are as follow:
I participated in desert racing for 4 years on my XR650R with properly tuned OEM forks,
then converted to USD Ohlins properly tuned for supermotard/track work.
On the streets, without landing tabletops or huge sand dunes, no one would be bale to tell the stiffness gained changing to USD forks if OEM fork were properly tuned.
Besides the XR650R, I've also done USD forks conversions on SV650S for track use, sure USD forks look cool, but extra "stiffnes" isn't always a good thing.
The whole concept of suspension is to soak up bumps so you don't feel them. Not to get "stiffer" or better brakes in the process. You spend all the $$ to get better performance to go faster, why would you want better brakes?
all they do is slow you down.
03-30-2013, 12:18 PM
#38
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Without proper testing or setup, USD or OEM forks are not going to suit your riding, even though you might be able to tell the extra stiffness of USD forks at the seat of your pants, but that can easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200.
Originally Posted by Tweety
Sooo... How does 1000RR forks with Öhlins internals, setup for me specifically by the same team that does WSB bikes for the top teams sound? Oh BTW, the frame is braced at the headstock and other places...
You have to weigh the cost vs benefit.
Without proper testing or setup, USD or OEM forks are not going to suit your riding, even though you might be able to tell the extra stiffness of USD forks at the seat of your pants, but that can easily be accomplished by changing the fork oil weight/height, get a fork valve and adding a fork brace to OEM fork legs at under $200.
From OEM, to thicker oil (Which BTW was nothing short of awful, as it made the fork worse than OEM)... Then to stiffer springs... To springs and valving (specifically tuned to me), and the brace added in, which was pretty decent, but still "wobbly" compared to other bikes... To finally going all the way to an USD fork, and correct valving and springs for me... And then about a year later, uprated internals, with a lot of tuning for me...
Trust me, it makes a difference in how the bike feels and behaves, every step...
And I wouldn't really recommend anyone to try fiddling with changing oil thickness... Changing the oil level is one thing... Thicker oil, not a good idea at all...
Last edited by Tweety; 03-30-2013 at 02:08 PM.
03-30-2013, 12:25 PM
#39
Out of my mind, back in 5
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I have been nothing but civil, and giving information to have a discussion... But what I get in return are you spewing opinions, and opinions disguised as facts... And one or two veiled insults...
With your added "advice" of changing oil thickness, which on a road bike can result in "oil lock", ie when the fork goes momentary solid from not being able to pump the oil, which is really, really unnerving, and can be fairly dangerous, I think I'll just take the rest of what you are saying and stick it where it belongs... In the trashbin... Good day...
BTW, for those unsure... This IS a slam... nothing short of, and completely intentional...
03-30-2013, 12:43 PM
#40
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Then implying that the fork change was done for cosmetic reasons or the ones doing it have done no research, well I guess you know all and just ignore the posts about how the OEM parts were taken as far as the could go, in as far as set up, and were still found unacceptable.
I did have to laugh when you called those disagreeing with you "closed minded" when you really seem to be the one who can't accept facts when they are spelled out for you.
So have fun in your little world, throw some thicker fork oil in there, as that will fix everything and while you are at it, pull those stupid brakes off all together, as like you said "all they do is slow you down"
So I really am done now..... Good Day.
03-30-2013, 02:31 PM
#41
El Cheapo
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Whatever floats your boat, do you honestly think someone who is looking to do one single mod is going to convert the VTR to USD forks?
As to changing the fork oil, it does require some trial and error, but in case if you produce "oil lock" in your forks after changing oil weight, that pretty much indicates that you shouldn't be working on suspension yourself, leave it to someone else.
So call "SLAM", is just weak sauce...
As to changing the fork oil, it does require some trial and error, but in case if you produce "oil lock" in your forks after changing oil weight, that pretty much indicates that you shouldn't be working on suspension yourself, leave it to someone else.
So call "SLAM", is just weak sauce...
03-30-2013, 04:53 PM
#43
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There is nothing physical about swapping to USD forks that causes more stress on the frame.
Tuned OEM forks with a brace work very well. USD forks are still more precise, because the stanschions are substantially stiffer. Simple physics. The tubes have a larger diameter, giving them a higher area moment of inertia.
Tuned OEM forks with a brace work very well. USD forks are still more precise, because the stanschions are substantially stiffer. Simple physics. The tubes have a larger diameter, giving them a higher area moment of inertia.
03-30-2013, 05:35 PM
#44
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There is nothing physical about swapping to USD forks that causes more stress on the frame.
Tuned OEM forks with a brace work very well. USD forks are still more precise, because the stanschions are substantially stiffer. Simple physics. The tubes have a larger diameter, giving them a higher area moment of inertia.
Tuned OEM forks with a brace work very well. USD forks are still more precise, because the stanschions are substantially stiffer. Simple physics. The tubes have a larger diameter, giving them a higher area moment of inertia.
I guess there is nothing to add at this point, all is covered by now.. just wanted to share my experience:
When I got my USD forks, after rebuilding them and installing on the bike, the deference in riding was enormous even before I started tuning the forks, not to mention braking and steering due to rake & trail, for me that was a well worth investment.
Got to say, I had a good laugh reading these posts
fun fun fun Love this forum
Last edited by NHSH; 03-31-2013 at 10:03 PM.
03-30-2013, 07:26 PM
#45
THE LANE CARVER
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Ya as much as Most of us are enjoying this topic, it was NOT intended to create a battle; just a learning and sharing topic for us to get ideas. Although some have differences of opinion, lets stay civil with our SH brothers. That alone shows 1 solid thing in common, we all own and love our birds.
03-30-2013, 08:00 PM
#46
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I would take USD forks over modified OEM forks any day!
I will leave it to Jamie to discuss the dangers in just "changing the fork oil".
Your cue Jamie.....
I will leave it to Jamie to discuss the dangers in just "changing the fork oil".
Your cue Jamie.....
Last edited by RWhisen; 03-31-2013 at 08:02 AM.
03-31-2013, 12:20 AM
#47
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Whatever floats your boat, do you honestly think someone who is looking to do one single mod is going to convert the VTR to USD forks?
As to changing the fork oil, it does require some trial and error, but in case if you produce "oil lock" in your forks after changing oil weight, that pretty much indicates that you shouldn't be working on suspension yourself, leave it to someone else.
So call "SLAM", is just weak sauce...
As to changing the fork oil, it does require some trial and error, but in case if you produce "oil lock" in your forks after changing oil weight, that pretty much indicates that you shouldn't be working on suspension yourself, leave it to someone else.
So call "SLAM", is just weak sauce...
Please, either point out where I replied that the "single mod" should be USD forks, or be man enough to admit you put your foot in it? It shouldn't be too hard really, since I haven't made too many posts in this thread...
And, as for oil lock... Well... Pretty much any thicker oil in the VTR's fork will produce that, as it has very restrictive valves compared to off-road bikes... Two completely different setups, and hence why what works on the dunes doesn't work on the road...
Because like I said, I have tuned the stock forks... So far, you haven't even once said that you have, only blabbered about off road bikes which is a totaly irrelevant to the VTR forks... Something you might take a moment to consider before "giving advice" from your infinite pool of knowledge...
03-31-2013, 02:25 AM
#49
Umm...I'm awesome. Duh...
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yo dawgs, dat extended swingarm be phat! best mod EVR! def keeps da bike from doin cartwheels when u dnt want to. ITZ PHYSICS HOMIES!!!
(haha fuel to the fire perhaps?)
man, best mod i did was just get rid of the damn forks all together... WAAY BETTER THAN OEM OR USD'S!!!!
(haha fuel to the fire perhaps?)
man, best mod i did was just get rid of the damn forks all together... WAAY BETTER THAN OEM OR USD'S!!!!
03-31-2013, 07:09 AM
#50
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yo dawgs, dat extended swingarm be phat! best mod EVR! def keeps da bike from doin cartwheels when u dnt want to. ITZ PHYSICS HOMIES!!!
(haha fuel to the fire perhaps?)
man, best mod i did was just get rid of the damn forks all together... WAAY BETTER THAN OEM OR USD'S!!!!
(haha fuel to the fire perhaps?)
man, best mod i did was just get rid of the damn forks all together... WAAY BETTER THAN OEM OR USD'S!!!!
04-01-2013, 06:48 AM
#53
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It is true, you can fine tune your damping by changing oil viscosity. My RC51 forks had a blend of 5 wt and 10 wt oils, making it somewhere around 7 wt. This was arrived at (not by me) through thorough track testing. Good call.
04-01-2013, 08:48 AM
#54
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04-01-2013, 04:02 PM
#55
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next month,if it all goes as planed i should mount a complete R adittions to stock suspension...
the suspension i am talking about is the one T-slo is seling...
the rear shock should do just fine sofar my expirience says,but the front end is the one i am worried about the oem forks just dont cut the deal...
it is a touring bike in its nature,so to ride it hard and efficient it needs far more than adjustments on the oem suspension...
for last 3000km i was trying to adjust almost everything there is to(and took it to a real sb mechanics and sb drivers and trying again and agin),my conclusion to stock suspension aswell as stock brakes is that they are realy good and functional for touring ride,but moment you get wild they fail!
that is all my humble expirience talking,i cant say that for a fact,but that is thr way i see it...
so as i said before,now i am first going to purchase these aprovements and get them mounted by profesionals(not that i cant myself,but i hapend to have a friend that races in sb now for 10 yrs and works as a mechanic,have a shop too)...so when i mount them and drive it out for a while i will give as much as detail review on my "improvment"...
till then,
the suspension i am talking about is the one T-slo is seling...
the rear shock should do just fine sofar my expirience says,but the front end is the one i am worried about
the oem forks just dont cut the deal...it is a touring bike in its nature,so to ride it hard and efficient it needs far more than adjustments on the oem suspension...
for last 3000km i was trying to adjust almost everything there is to(and took it to a real sb mechanics and sb drivers and trying again and agin),my conclusion to stock suspension aswell as stock brakes is that they are realy good and functional for touring ride,but moment you get wild they fail!
that is all my humble expirience talking,i cant say that for a fact,but that is thr way i see it...
so as i said before,now i am first going to purchase these aprovements and get them mounted by profesionals(not that i cant myself,but i hapend to have a friend that races in sb now for 10 yrs and works as a mechanic,have a shop too)...so when i mount them and drive it out for a while i will give as much as detail review on my "improvment"...
till then,
Last edited by Istrijan 1000; 04-01-2013 at 04:06 PM.
04-01-2013, 05:15 PM
#56
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I got a shock from Jamie, and paid for stiffer springs, and a shop to install them and do custom valving for my weight...all of that together cost approximately 500 bucks...I started tracking the bike with that setup with the stock brakes (some EBC HH pads), and it was awesome!
Was it "wobbly" or whatever like Tweety suggests above? Probably...did I care? No...because I didn't know any better, not having ridden any other bikes on the track before....even as a beginner I could tell the stock stuff sucked though, the bike would bottom out over some bumps, and the front end was like a pogo stick on the track.
The hawk isn't a racing bike, USD forks are not worth the money IMO, but if you can only have one motorcycle and you've chosen the hawk, then going the full 9 yards on the front end is probably worth it....
Was it "wobbly" or whatever like Tweety suggests above? Probably...did I care? No...because I didn't know any better, not having ridden any other bikes on the track before....even as a beginner I could tell the stock stuff sucked though, the bike would bottom out over some bumps, and the front end was like a pogo stick on the track.
The hawk isn't a racing bike, USD forks are not worth the money IMO, but if you can only have one motorcycle and you've chosen the hawk, then going the full 9 yards on the front end is probably worth it....
04-02-2013, 06:12 AM
#58
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You can also learn to use your peripheral vision better, you can see motion much better then in your focused vision area, trust me, this will save your life, not the mirrors.
04-02-2013, 06:38 AM
#59
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Well, I know the theory behind it is sound... But when I tested going to 7.5W fork oil on an otherwise stock fork, it caused oil lock for me... I do think the to soft OEM spring contributed to that behaviour as it pretty much bottomed out, moving fast... But it made it fairly clear that the stock valving is very restrictive... It might work better with a correct spring, or at least a heavier spring, I don't know...
But for me, only changing the oil weight, and with a 215 pound rider, it was a scary experience, hence why I "attack" people's recommendation to do that to the OEM forks, saying I wouldn't recommend it...
On a sidenote, I have too done it on off road bikes with great results, altough mostly by recommendation from others that have tested it, not by finding the correct mix myself...
04-02-2013, 06:46 AM
#60
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Tweety is spot on. I have found that people will confuse "stiff" with "performance". It comes down to the root of the problem with the HMAS valving that is present in both the VTR and RC51 forks (and pretty much everything else from that era). The issue is too much high speed damping. This generates a nice firm low speed range which is great for control and rider feedback. The downside is it creates much more high speed that added on top of the already excessive amount in the forks. The end result is very poor performance.
Oil viscosity is not a tuning mechanism.
Oil viscosity is not a tuning mechanism.
