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Flywheel Lightening

Old 11-13-2013, 01:14 AM
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Hey guys, I think that you are getting confused.

I fitted the H-Power flywheel to the Honda, not the Aprillia that spun up quick but did not produce the goods.


My question is this, and I take into account the population in your country as opposed to mine and the fact that there could be someone as mad as me there that has done similar mods to me with a lightened flywheel and the following,


J E pistons, decked heads, 4 Degree ignition advance, Dynojet stage one kit, 500 Ohms T.P.S , standard Air Filter, fairly open cans, restrictors and P.A.I.R and R/ Exhaust restriction removed as well as a bunch of other things including the Electric Water Pump and removal of the pump drive gear and chain and the anti rattle gear from the primary drive and wonder if the sound of the bike has changed as much as my friends tell me.


It's not the V Twin sound as such, but the way that it is delivered when reving.


It almost sounds like an IL4 in the upper ranges, however it has a real growl but just quicker than how it was before and that delivers a totally different sound to how it was before all these mods.


I like it, don't get me wrong, however I wonder how much quicker it is than it was before.


That is why I was curious about a comparison to a relatively standard bike as rather than put it on a Dyno and may be disappointed I would rather spend my $ on other mods that benefit my usage of the bike.


Yes I have done the suspension and brakes etc etc, just curious on what my spend has achieved in real terms and why my bike sound very different to other storms(Superhawks)and how I remember it when I first got it.


Is most of this change down to the Flywheel? I would love to know?
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:01 AM
  #62  
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Drag race and find out
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:52 AM
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I would have thought most of the change would be the high comp pistons and/or decked heads. All you need now is some cams to top it off. So power and spinning up fast = speed. It all contributes to the final output.

(:-})
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:10 AM
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I've been told that cams in the Storm(Superhawk) are pretty good as they are.

The expense of them is a hurdle for me at this stage.


I am about to fit a braced swing arm, and get a set of new high mount exhausts so money is tight right now.


Would love to see a before and after Dyno for the flywheel to see any changes in delivery.
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by kenmoore View Post
I've been told that cams in the Storm(Superhawk) are pretty good as they are.

The expense of them is a hurdle for me at this stage.


I am about to fit a braced swing arm, and get a set of new high mount exhausts so money is tight right now.


Would love to see a before and after Dyno for the flywheel to see any changes in delivery.
For the lightened flywheel and pump components removal, a Dyno run will potentially only show an earlier pick of torque & HP and quicker acceleration rate, I don't believe you will see a difference in the max HP and torque output.
If you really think about it, the effect you get with this mod is like having same engine on a much lighter bike, rotating mass equals much more stationary mass on the bike when it comes to accelerating or decelerating.
In a way it is a much easier, trickier and cheaper mod then getting more output from the motor, kinda similar to changing the gear ratio on the sprockets.
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by NHSH View Post
For the lightened flywheel and pump components removal, a Dyno run will potentially only show an earlier pick of torque & HP and quicker acceleration rate, I don't believe you will see a difference in the max HP and torque output.

If you were measuring at the engine you would be right, however since a dyno measured at the wheel calculates Torque and HP by acceleration it would say that you are making more HP and Torque and the curve should stay fairly close to the same, just like if you change the gearing, the engine doesn't have any more power than it had before, but at the wheel there is more power.

Dyno a bike in 6th gear then dyno it in fifth and I promise if your measuring at the wheel the dyno will show different numbers but with a similar curve
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:28 PM
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Very interesting, I was thinking that my mods to the reciprocating mass of the engine would show a different power and torque curve to a standard bike and that due to removing the mechanical water pump and fitting an electric one that I may have got a small power gain.

One thing for sure is that I believe that the flywheel mod is the best one I have done and would recommend it to anyone even if that is all you do.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by insulinboy View Post
If you were measuring at the engine you would be right, however since a dyno measured at the wheel calculates Torque and HP by acceleration it would say that you are making more HP and Torque and the curve should stay fairly close to the same, just like if you change the gearing, the engine doesn't have any more power than it had before, but at the wheel there is more power.

Dyno a bike in 6th gear then dyno it in fifth and I promise if your measuring at the wheel the dyno will show different numbers but with a similar curve
I believe you right, just thought about it again, at the wheel you do get different results and you also get the curve shorter or rather quicker in every gear.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kenmoore View Post
Very interesting, I was thinking that my mods to the reciprocating mass of the engine would show a different power and torque curve to a standard bike and that due to removing the mechanical water pump and fitting an electric one that I may have got a small power gain.

One thing for sure is that I believe that the flywheel mod is the best one I have done and would recommend it to anyone even if that is all you do.
And you are correct mate, that is absolutely the best cheap mod you can do to the engine and get the most out of the mod for the investment.

For the bike as a whole the best mod is still the front end mod:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...est-mod-30057/
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Old 11-14-2013, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kenmoore View Post
Very interesting, I was thinking that my mods to the reciprocating mass of the engine would show a different power and torque curve to a standard bike and that due to removing the mechanical water pump and fitting an electric one that I may have got a small power gain.

One thing for sure is that I believe that the flywheel mod is the best one I have done and would recommend it to anyone even if that is all you do.
It will show more power because you're using more power to accelerate and less power to operate the pump and moving that mass. But to my knowledge the power curve should stay similar, not exactly the same but it should be a similar curve because you didn't change the power of the engine, just what the engine is working to do.

Changing the exhaust, or air/fuel intake will effect the curve more as you're actually changing how the engine runs

At least this is my understanding, I could be wrong

[/threadjack]

Sorry

Last edited by insulinboy; 11-14-2013 at 06:45 AM.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:30 AM
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My bum dyno tells me that Insulinboy is on the right track.

With the engine not having to drive the water pump that I got a power gain, is it much? I don't know!


Whatever, one day I will meet someone with a storm(Superhawk) and try and swap bikes to get an idea how a standard bike goes.


Ideally a bike that has similar mods except for the flywheel and electric water pump.


If they could both go on a dyno that would be even better.


Are there any dyno charts around for before and after flywheel mod?
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Old 11-14-2013, 04:26 PM
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Speaking of Dyno's Erik was supposed to be doing his weeks ago. Has it been done? If so what were the results?
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:52 AM
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Could u send me info on how I can get my spare flywheel cut from u and how much it costs ty
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by cdubbs View Post
Could u send me info on how I can get my spare flywheel cut from u and how much it costs ty
PM sent
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:23 PM
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Mr Marquez,

Have you fitted different weight fly wheels to your bike? That is more than one, and if so what are your impressions


I am interested in what you think the optimal weight is. I got mine as an exchange unit from Bill at H-Power here in Oz and at the same time I fitted J.E pistons, decked the heads, cleaned up the ports, fitted an electric water pump a 4 degree advancer and removed the pump gear, chain and primary drive anti rattle gear.


My goal was to remove reciprocal mass to get the engine to spin up faster. In some ways I wish I had just done the flywheel as a stand alone option to experience what it does by itself.


I am happy but will never experience the difference that the flywheel mod makes by itself as I did it all at one time.


My impression is that it makes the power way more accesable earlier and that the engine braking once you get used to it is a bonus as well that allows for later braking when charging hard.


I wish I could get my bike on a dyno, but over here they charge $$$ for dyno time and there are too many more things that I can put the $$ into.
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Old 12-15-2013, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kenmoore View Post
Mr Marquez,

Have you fitted different weight fly wheels to your bike? That is more than one, and if so what are your impressions.
In a way yes I have, but it's hard to say if I really notice a difference one lightened one to the other.

I've now have had three flywheels on my motor, Stock, Ditchfield cut and what I do for a max cut.

Stock to either modified is a noticeable difference. .. Between the modified versions.. I'm less confident on a commonly noticeable difference.
Math says it must make a difference, logic shows the same ... but butt dyno the difference is negligible. ...still.. math dont lie... so I have a light one in place now
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:03 PM
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Flywheel Lightening

Figured Id start a thread here in the knowledge forum to talk about and track flywheels lightened, and what users had to say.

I started working on another one today. But this thread is for ALL users, or interested forum members. It's not a sales ad.... If you had a local shop, Rodger Ditchfield or whittled your own flywheel down.. Please post up..
Things like starting weight, did it have balancing holes drilled in the weight? how much and from where was the materiel removed? Did you have a target weight in mind? or just a dimensions to be cut to, and end weight is just a byproduct? Did you have it balanced afterwords? If so where and how much did that cost? Post install usability.. what did you notice after installation?

This is #30 im working best i can tell... I have quotes and emails on three servers, across three different internet forums and hundreds of back and forth emails. Nothing but good things to say about the results.

I'll try and consolidate a bunch of scattered posts to this thread when i get some time.
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:05 PM
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The Why

Space reserved for a discussion on why we do this.

I will start it,, but am open to including verbiage from other contributors.

So WHY? install a lighted flywheel??

Faster motor spin up is likely the biggest reason. (Good IMHO)

With less rotating mass, you will notice more engine braking. (Manageable, but not an "improvement" IMHO,some will see this as a good thing though, to each their own)

In street use, stop and go traffic to RPM limited blasts for hours at a time I have experienced no down side.

Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-05-2014 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Will add to this post if others contribute
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Old 03-04-2014, 01:27 PM
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Removal and installation

So you want to remove your flywheel and have it lightened.. Ok.. here is how.

What you will need.

Basic hand tools... needed for cover screws, hose clamps, flywheel bolt, puller, drain plugs, and separating the starter clutch gear (sprag gear) from the flywheel.

Flywheel puller M22x1.5 .. it can be had on ebay, Amazon or from a company like motion Pro 08-0074 for under $8.00 USD. Order it at the same time you order a gasket and fluids....or if you forget....
An alternative and something you can source immediately is a common replacement drain plug that can be used as a remover.
In the US, in most larger Auto Parts stores there is a replacement part brand called Dorman. They offer oil and other fluid drain plugs in OEM replacement sizes and self threading "fix it" types. DO NOT use the self threading repaie type drain plug.....
As of this article date there are two Dorman part numbers that I know will work..Dorman 65223 Oil Drain Plug Standard M22-1.50, this one has a 19mm hex cap.
Another PN is 090-151, this one has a 3/8 square drive socket head.
I have both, and they both do the jop equally well. The Dorman plug will be a few $ more than a Motion Pro puller, but you can likely get the drain plug any day of the week on hand in stock.


And of course.. someone to lighten the flywheel.
Make sure the machinist is not planning on holding the work by clamping the basket in a chuck. Ask them about setup run out... how close will they get it before starting the cut.. (I adjust setup till run out is .001 or less in both axis's )

Will they use a live or dead center on the non chuck end? they should say yes.. might save them some time and tell um the threaded hole for the puller in the flywheel is not concentric to the center of the part.. and can not be used to hold the work piece. As well as if they try anyway, a live center must be used, or the lead threads will be damaged on the flywheel..(I've posted pictures of my set ups, so its no secret.. ask if you want to try this at home.. I'll help where I can)
All this is likely going to be obvious to a machinist that does this for a living.. my comments are more towards the Hobby guy that has a lathe in his garage, used twice a year

After having spoken to the person doing the work.. you may need to remove starter gear and clutch from the flywheel.(you or the machinist MUST remove the sprag gear... failing to do so will result in metal particle contamination of the bearing, not guessing on this.... I made this mistake on my 1st flywheel ) So you or the machinist will need a hex bit to remove the fasteners. .. If your not using air tools... it is best to break these socket head cap screws loose before you remove the flywheel from the crank. As trying to hold the flywheel still and loosen those screws with hand tools will result in a you tube worthy video and an observation that you may indeed have had relations to a monkey and a football at some point.

If your shipping the flywheel to have it worked on.. in the US, I have found USPS priority mail using a Medium flat rate box is most economical

Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-05-2014 at 07:51 PM. Reason: Added some additional details 5 Mar 14
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:22 PM
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This flywheel lightening was a new one for me....User wanted a specific weight removed.

As Im using fully manual machines with a DRO, but no other digital capability, auto set up, digital location indicator.... machining to a target weight was a challenge.
This one had three balance holes in it groups tightly together.
Started at 7lb 5 3/8oz
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Finished at 6lb 8 3/4oz
For a reduction of 12 5/8oz... . 5/8oz over target.
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I now have a better idea of what the flywheel will weigh based on where in the cut down im at.

Don't think I'll take another job where a specific target weight is requested. Nothing wrong with that from the owners position, just that Im not equipped to do that with a reasonable expectation of meeting the target. And I dislike not being able to meet the customers goal. That said, this customer and I spoke at length on the likely hood I would be off an oz or so either side of the target...so I think all is well... but it was way too much stress.

In progress
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Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-05-2014 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:40 PM
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So the benefit of this is the engine revs up quicker, is that correct? Any other benefits or negatives? What do you charge to lighten it? Just for future reference. I'm still learning to use the power in it's stock state optimally.
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Old 03-04-2014, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
So the benefit of this is the engine revs up quicker, is that correct? Any other benefits or negatives? What do you charge to lighten it? Just for future reference. I'm still learning to use the power in it's stock state optimally.
When 1lb + is removed there is a seat of the pants noticeable difference in how fast the RPM's climb.. There is NO rideability downside far as I or anyone that has posted can tell.

There are no runability, performance or service downsides far as I can tell....
There are hundreds of users running lightened flywheels,,,

Some use re-balanced versions, others do not. I have many thousands of miles on a light flywheel that was not re balanced,, all is well.
there are 29 others out there from me alone that are running fine.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:17 PM
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Any idea why some folk mod their bikes the opposite way and add flywheel weight?

KTM altered the RC8 from 2010 model to later 2011/12 models:

The KTM engineers included a heavier crankshaft and flywheel aimed at reducing the buzzy nature of the previous RC8R and to emphasize low-end torque
KTM 1190 RC8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Wicky View Post
Any idea why some folk mod their bikes the opposite way and add flywheel weight?

KTM altered the RC8 from 2010 model to later 2011/12 models:

KTM 1190 RC8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On some off road trail bikes?.. yes I know why I add weight to those flywheels.. But I also remove weight on some off road trail bikes.. for the same reason I remove weight on the Superhawk.

Why do some want to add weight to some street bikes? I assume they desire to change some harmonic vibrations or slow the rev out or provide more mass effecting traction, flywheel effect ect.

If you want a heaver VTR1000F flywheel I can do that as well through adding heavy metal plugs. Though that one would need to be balanced for sure.

Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-04-2014 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:27 PM
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Ran 15/43 520 for about five years. Loved the quick acceleration in any gear. When it was time for a new chain, went with stock 16/41 530 to see how it handled the commute gas wise. Gas wise I was very happy but lost the snappy, quick acceleration. Was ready to go back to15/43 but read about the lightened flywheel. Don't remember specifics, been a few years, but lost .75 lbs.(Picked up 6+lbs with 530). The lightened flywheel brought back the snappy acceleration I had before with the 15/43. Can't wait for this chain to wear out so I can go 16/43 520.
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:55 PM
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The only real negative that I want to mention is that it makes you need to focus on the throttle a bit more. Because of the faster acceleration and deceleration, if you have a habit of snapping it open or closed it will make for a twitchy ride.

If you like having ultimate control, instant power, focusing your lightening reflexes, melding man and machine, drinking single malt, chopping trees down with an axe and your brute hands, wrestling alpha wolves, and riding steel horses, then this mod is for you. If you're timid about unexpected changes in velocity, then pass on this and trade your superhawk for lululemon apparel.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:30 AM
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RC8 doe's have a bit of a buzzy feel at some low to mid end rpm's and high end rpm's, so I can see why they add weight, I have to admit, that my experience of several weeks on the RC8, the buzz didn't bother me at all, but after I set back on the VTR, I realized how much smoother it works with all the vibrations and learned yet again why I love that bike so much!!!
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Old 03-05-2014, 09:50 PM
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Your D'Man!

Not sure I have time this winter with needing to get the swing arm & shock linkage bearings cleaned and reinstalled (Trackside Engineering did a major overhaul/rebuild of my Penske 3-way shock), along with new sprockets/chain (16/43 steel & 530) and DanMoto 3D clip-ons (sold the Helibars a while ago but keeping the Tomaselli 3-axis clip-ons) to do a lightened flywheel but I am strongly considering it. Also got a Shad SH46 (2010+ model) top box (trunk) to go with my 35L.

Erik, what is the cost for one and do you have spares and thus do a core charge, or do I have to send you mine, and if so, what is turn-around?

Thx

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Old 03-06-2014, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
Your D'Man!

Not sure I have time this winter with needing to get the swing arm & shock linkage bearings cleaned and reinstalled (Trackside Engineering did a major overhaul/rebuild of my Penske 3-way shock), along with new sprockets/chain (16/43 steel & 530) and DanMoto 3D clip-ons (sold the Helibars a while ago but keeping the Tomaselli 3-axis clip-ons) to do a lightened flywheel but I am strongly considering it. Also got a Shad SH46 (2010+ model) top box (trunk) to go with my 35L.

Erik, what is the cost for one and do you have spares and thus do a core charge, or do I have to send you mine, and if so, what is turn-around?

Thx
PM on the way
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