Flywheel Lightening - SuperHawk Forum


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Old 03-04-2014, 02:03 PM   #1
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Flywheel Lightening

Figured Id start a thread here in the knowledge forum to talk about and track flywheels lightened, and what users had to say.

I started working on another one today. But this thread is for ALL users, or interested forum members. It's not a sales ad.... If you had a local shop, Rodger Ditchfield or whittled your own flywheel down.. Please post up..
Things like starting weight, did it have balancing holes drilled in the weight? how much and from where was the materiel removed? Did you have a target weight in mind? or just a dimensions to be cut to, and end weight is just a byproduct? Did you have it balanced afterwords? If so where and how much did that cost? Post install usability.. what did you notice after installation?

This is #30 im working best i can tell... I have quotes and emails on three servers, across three different internet forums and hundreds of back and forth emails. Nothing but good things to say about the results.

I'll try and consolidate a bunch of scattered posts to this thread when i get some time.
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:05 PM   #2
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The Why

Space reserved for a discussion on why we do this.

I will start it,, but am open to including verbiage from other contributors.

So WHY? install a lighted flywheel??

Faster motor spin up is likely the biggest reason. (Good IMHO)

With less rotating mass, you will notice more engine braking. (Manageable, but not an "improvement" IMHO,some will see this as a good thing though, to each their own)

In street use, stop and go traffic to RPM limited blasts for hours at a time I have experienced no down side.

Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-05-2014 at 07:27 AM. Reason: Will add to this post if others contribute
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:27 PM   #3
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Removal and installation

So you want to remove your flywheel and have it lightened.. Ok.. here is how.

What you will need.

Basic hand tools... needed for cover screws, hose clamps, flywheel bolt, puller, drain plugs, and separating the starter clutch gear (sprag gear) from the flywheel.

Flywheel puller M22x1.5 .. it can be had on ebay, Amazon or from a company like motion Pro 08-0074 for under $8.00 USD. Order it at the same time you order a gasket and fluids....or if you forget....
An alternative and something you can source immediately is a common replacement drain plug that can be used as a remover.
In the US, in most larger Auto Parts stores there is a replacement part brand called Dorman. They offer oil and other fluid drain plugs in OEM replacement sizes and self threading "fix it" types. DO NOT use the self threading repaie type drain plug.....
As of this article date there are two Dorman part numbers that I know will work..Dorman 65223 Oil Drain Plug Standard M22-1.50, this one has a 19mm hex cap.
Another PN is 090-151, this one has a 3/8 square drive socket head.
I have both, and they both do the jop equally well. The Dorman plug will be a few $ more than a Motion Pro puller, but you can likely get the drain plug any day of the week on hand in stock.


And of course.. someone to lighten the flywheel.
Make sure the machinist is not planning on holding the work by clamping the basket in a chuck. Ask them about setup run out... how close will they get it before starting the cut.. (I adjust setup till run out is .001 or less in both axis's )

Will they use a live or dead center on the non chuck end? they should say yes.. might save them some time and tell um the threaded hole for the puller in the flywheel is not concentric to the center of the part.. and can not be used to hold the work piece. As well as if they try anyway, a live center must be used, or the lead threads will be damaged on the flywheel..(I've posted pictures of my set ups, so its no secret.. ask if you want to try this at home.. I'll help where I can)
All this is likely going to be obvious to a machinist that does this for a living.. my comments are more towards the Hobby guy that has a lathe in his garage, used twice a year

After having spoken to the person doing the work.. you may need to remove starter gear and clutch from the flywheel.(you or the machinist MUST remove the sprag gear... failing to do so will result in metal particle contamination of the bearing, not guessing on this.... I made this mistake on my 1st flywheel ) So you or the machinist will need a hex bit to remove the fasteners. .. If your not using air tools... it is best to break these socket head cap screws loose before you remove the flywheel from the crank. As trying to hold the flywheel still and loosen those screws with hand tools will result in a you tube worthy video and an observation that you may indeed have had relations to a monkey and a football at some point.

If your shipping the flywheel to have it worked on.. in the US, I have found USPS priority mail using a Medium flat rate box is most economical

Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-05-2014 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Added some additional details 5 Mar 14
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:22 PM   #4
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This flywheel lightening was a new one for me....User wanted a specific weight removed.

As Im using fully manual machines with a DRO, but no other digital capability, auto set up, digital location indicator.... machining to a target weight was a challenge.
This one had three balance holes in it groups tightly together.
Started at 7lb 5 3/8oz
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Finished at 6lb 8 3/4oz
For a reduction of 12 5/8oz... . 5/8oz over target.
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I now have a better idea of what the flywheel will weigh based on where in the cut down im at.

Don't think I'll take another job where a specific target weight is requested. Nothing wrong with that from the owners position, just that Im not equipped to do that with a reasonable expectation of meeting the target. And I dislike not being able to meet the customers goal. That said, this customer and I spoke at length on the likely hood I would be off an oz or so either side of the target...so I think all is well... but it was way too much stress.

In progress
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Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-05-2014 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:40 PM   #5
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So the benefit of this is the engine revs up quicker, is that correct? Any other benefits or negatives? What do you charge to lighten it? Just for future reference. I'm still learning to use the power in it's stock state optimally.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
So the benefit of this is the engine revs up quicker, is that correct? Any other benefits or negatives? What do you charge to lighten it? Just for future reference. I'm still learning to use the power in it's stock state optimally.
When 1lb + is removed there is a seat of the pants noticeable difference in how fast the RPM's climb.. There is NO rideability downside far as I or anyone that has posted can tell.

There are no runability, performance or service downsides far as I can tell....
There are hundreds of users running lightened flywheels,,,

Some use re-balanced versions, others do not. I have many thousands of miles on a light flywheel that was not re balanced,, all is well.
there are 29 others out there from me alone that are running fine.
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:17 PM   #7
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Any idea why some folk mod their bikes the opposite way and add flywheel weight?

KTM altered the RC8 from 2010 model to later 2011/12 models:

Quote:
The KTM engineers included a heavier crankshaft and flywheel aimed at reducing the buzzy nature of the previous RC8R and to emphasize low-end torque
KTM 1190 RC8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicky View Post
Any idea why some folk mod their bikes the opposite way and add flywheel weight?

KTM altered the RC8 from 2010 model to later 2011/12 models:

KTM 1190 RC8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
On some off road trail bikes?.. yes I know why I add weight to those flywheels.. But I also remove weight on some off road trail bikes.. for the same reason I remove weight on the Superhawk.

Why do some want to add weight to some street bikes? I assume they desire to change some harmonic vibrations or slow the rev out or provide more mass effecting traction, flywheel effect ect.

If you want a heaver VTR1000F flywheel I can do that as well through adding heavy metal plugs. Though that one would need to be balanced for sure.

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Old 03-04-2014, 08:27 PM   #9
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Ran 15/43 520 for about five years. Loved the quick acceleration in any gear. When it was time for a new chain, went with stock 16/41 530 to see how it handled the commute gas wise. Gas wise I was very happy but lost the snappy, quick acceleration. Was ready to go back to15/43 but read about the lightened flywheel. Don't remember specifics, been a few years, but lost .75 lbs.(Picked up 6+lbs with 530). The lightened flywheel brought back the snappy acceleration I had before with the 15/43. Can't wait for this chain to wear out so I can go 16/43 520.
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:55 PM   #10
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The only real negative that I want to mention is that it makes you need to focus on the throttle a bit more. Because of the faster acceleration and deceleration, if you have a habit of snapping it open or closed it will make for a twitchy ride.

If you like having ultimate control, instant power, focusing your lightening reflexes, melding man and machine, drinking single malt, chopping trees down with an axe and your brute hands, wrestling alpha wolves, and riding steel horses, then this mod is for you. If you're timid about unexpected changes in velocity, then pass on this and trade your superhawk for lululemon apparel.
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Old 03-05-2014, 06:30 AM   #11
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RC8 doe's have a bit of a buzzy feel at some low to mid end rpm's and high end rpm's, so I can see why they add weight, I have to admit, that my experience of several weeks on the RC8, the buzz didn't bother me at all, but after I set back on the VTR, I realized how much smoother it works with all the vibrations and learned yet again why I love that bike so much!!!
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:50 PM   #13
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Your D'Man!

Not sure I have time this winter with needing to get the swing arm & shock linkage bearings cleaned and reinstalled (Trackside Engineering did a major overhaul/rebuild of my Penske 3-way shock), along with new sprockets/chain (16/43 steel & 530) and DanMoto 3D clip-ons (sold the Helibars a while ago but keeping the Tomaselli 3-axis clip-ons) to do a lightened flywheel but I am strongly considering it. Also got a Shad SH46 (2010+ model) top box (trunk) to go with my 35L.

Erik, what is the cost for one and do you have spares and thus do a core charge, or do I have to send you mine, and if so, what is turn-around?

Thx

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Merging older threads to this one would have put thread out of order... making this thread a mess..

So I will instead just provide links to other relevant threads.
In no particular order, just what came up in a ..

By all means if I missed one or 10.. some one post up.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...htening-28752/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...mod-4-a-29109/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...lywheel-28325/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...balance-16643/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...htenedd-26783/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...lywheel-23990/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...lywheel-14834/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...lywheel-12950/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...removal-12682/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...flywheel-9621/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...flywheel-8089/
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...eel-help-8888/
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
Your D'Man!

Not sure I have time this winter with needing to get the swing arm & shock linkage bearings cleaned and reinstalled (Trackside Engineering did a major overhaul/rebuild of my Penske 3-way shock), along with new sprockets/chain (16/43 steel & 530) and DanMoto 3D clip-ons (sold the Helibars a while ago but keeping the Tomaselli 3-axis clip-ons) to do a lightened flywheel but I am strongly considering it. Also got a Shad SH46 (2010+ model) top box (trunk) to go with my 35L.

Erik, what is the cost for one and do you have spares and thus do a core charge, or do I have to send you mine, and if so, what is turn-around?

Thx
PM on the way
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:45 AM   #15
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One of my spares going under the knife for a rider looking at a no down time swap option.
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Starting weight 7lb 4 3/4oz
Three balance holes
Set to be cut to option 2
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Old 03-06-2014, 12:31 PM   #16
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Set up, checking run out PT 1



That is the mounting taper, adjusted to run true, with run out less 1/2 a thousandth. Spaceshuttle tolerances? NO, but better then the OEM flywheel is before I start.

After then the flywheel is mounted, run out checked again, the center bolt is cut with a countersink bit to ensure a dead center point for the live center to run in. Failing to re cut the countersink each time after the bolt and flywheel is tightened down will result in a off center position for the live center.

Live center snugged up and run out is again checked.... Then it's time to start the cut.

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Old 03-06-2014, 12:49 PM   #17
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All done..

Starting weight 7lb 5 3/8oz
Final weight 6lb 4 5/8oz
For a reduction of 1lb 3/4oz

Little attention to details like leaving chamfering the edges of the flywheel after cutting probable make no difference, but it came that way, so it's leaving that way.

The one chamfer on the clutch bearing side does make it easier to install the starter clutch.


Re-install the starter clutch on this one and in the shipping box it goes
Attached Thumbnails
Flywheel Lightening-joeydonefront_zpse5f94bbb.jpg   Flywheel Lightening-chamfer2_zpsce9ad992.jpg   Flywheel Lightening-chamfer1_zps336947a0.jpg  

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Old 03-06-2014, 05:46 PM   #18
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thanks again Erik! cant wait to get it installed. So far this transaction has been a pleasure as it usually is around here with sellers and buyers. glad you had a spare i could take off your hands so i dont have any downtime. cant wait to report back with my thoughts on it once i get it installed. now hurry up USPS!
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:15 PM   #19
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Flywheel for sale cheap

Flywheel for sale cheap.
Needs some assembly

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Old 03-06-2014, 07:53 PM   #20
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Sold! I'll take it. Where is it? Underneath all those chips?
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTR1000F View Post
Sold! I'll take it. Where is it? Underneath all those chips?
LOL no Mate,, It IS the chips ... Have super glue?
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Old 03-07-2014, 05:57 AM   #22
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I agree. Lightened flywheels ARE all that and a bag of chips. Superglue? The money I save on this, I can spring for some Locktite.

Last edited by VTR1000F; 03-07-2014 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Superglue's the poor-man's Locktite.
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:03 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
So you want to remove your flywheel and have it lightened.. Ok.. here is how.

What you will need.

Basic hand tools... needed for cover screws, hose clamps, flywheel bolt, puller, drain plugs, and separating the starter clutch gear (sprag gear) from the flywheel.

Flywheel puller M22x1.5 .. it can be had on ebay, Amazon or from a company like motion Pro 08-0074 for under $8.00 USD. Order it at the same time you order a gasket and fluids....or if you forget....
An alternative and something you can source immediately is a common replacement drain plug that can be used as a remover.
In the US, in most larger Auto Parts stores there is a replacement part brand called Dorman. They offer oil and other fluid drain plugs in OEM replacement sizes and self threading "fix it" types. DO NOT use the self threading repaie type drain plug.....
As of this article date there are two Dorman part numbers that I know will work..Dorman 65223 Oil Drain Plug Standard M22-1.50, this one has a 19mm hex cap.
Another PN is 090-151, this one has a 3/8 square drive socket head.
I have both, and they both do the jop equally well. The Dorman plug will be a few $ more than a Motion Pro puller, but you can likely get the drain plug any day of the week on hand in stock.


And of course.. someone to lighten the flywheel.
Make sure the machinist is not planning on holding the work by clamping the basket in a chuck. Ask them about setup run out... how close will they get it before starting the cut.. (I adjust setup till run out is .001 or less in both axis's )

Will they use a live or dead center on the non chuck end? they should say yes.. might save them some time and tell um the threaded hole for the puller in the flywheel is not concentric to the center of the part.. and can not be used to hold the work piece. As well as if they try anyway, a live center must be used, or the lead threads will be damaged on the flywheel..(I've posted pictures of my set ups, so its no secret.. ask if you want to try this at home.. I'll help where I can)
All this is likely going to be obvious to a machinist that does this for a living.. my comments are more towards the Hobby guy that has a lathe in his garage, used twice a year

After having spoken to the person doing the work.. you may need to remove starter gear and clutch from the flywheel.(you or the machinist MUST remove the sprag gear... failing to do so will result in metal particle contamination of the bearing, not guessing on this.... I made this mistake on my 1st flywheel ) So you or the machinist will need a hex bit to remove the fasteners. .. If your not using air tools... it is best to break these socket head cap screws loose before you remove the flywheel from the crank. As trying to hold the flywheel still and loosen those screws with hand tools will result in a you tube worthy video and an observation that you may indeed have had relations to a monkey and a football at some point.

If your shipping the flywheel to have it worked on.. in the US, I have found USPS priority mail using a Medium flat rate box is most economical

does anyone know which auto parts stores carry those dorman drain plugs? ive got a pep boys, a napa, and an oriellys really close to me. if i have to there is an auto zone a bit further away

to put my own foot in my mouth... if you look on dormans website you can find where they sell closest to you. i ended up getting mine at napa auto parts. i got the kind that has a 3/8 square socket drive. pep boys said they dont stock either of those so they have to order them. napa had them in stock.

Last edited by jscobey; 03-08-2014 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:07 PM   #24
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If autozone has it, oreilley's probably does too. Pretty much the same stuff...
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jscobey View Post
does anyone know which auto parts stores carry those dorman drain plugs? ive got a pep boys, a napa, and an oriellys really close to me. if i have to there is an auto zone a bit further away

to put my own foot in my mouth... if you look on dormans website you can find where they sell closest to you. i ended up getting mine at napa auto parts. i got the kind that has a 3/8 square socket drive. pep boys said they dont stock either of those so they have to order them. napa had them in stock.
I've bought them at oriellys , AutoZone and Advance Auto
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Old 03-12-2014, 05:49 PM   #26
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Another Option

Not the lightest weight one, nor the heaviest one .. but lighter then just a bit off the OD, lighter then just the Ditchfield version.. but not as light as all the way to the basket...

OK, we can do that.

Starting at 7lb 4 5/8oz

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With just one OEM balance hole.

Material to be removed from the engine side of the weight reducing the thickness to 10.5mm and from the OD to an new OD of approx 145mm.
Will set up tonight and let the RTV sealing the gap between the basket and weight cure till morning.

Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-12-2014 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:13 PM   #27
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Mine?

Is this one for me per our discussion last night?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Not the lightest weight one, nor the heaviest one .. but lighter then just a bit off the OD, lighter then just the Ditchfield version.. but not as light as all the way to the basket...

OK, we can do that.

Starting at 7lb 4 5/8oz





With just one OEM balance hole.

Material to be removed from the engine side of the weight reducing the thickness to 10.5mm and from the OD to an new OD of approx 145mm.
Will set up tonight and let the RTV sealing the gap between the basket and weight cure till morning.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:59 PM   #28
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Is this one for me per our discussion last night?
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe

I don't out folks that I do work for,,, but since you posted that...... why yes it is.

It's all set up.... ready for cutting.

I'll be home by 10:00.. with luck, it'll be complete and ready for shipping by mid day.

Last edited by E.Marquez; 03-12-2014 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:05 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe

I don't out folks that I do work for,,, but since you posted that...... why yes it is
Some of your satisfied customers have outed themselves when they thanked you and/or posted up on the results of your work, and anyone who has been a forum member for a while (should) know both of us. Heck, I still know my password to the (Greg's) old forum (runlevelzero.com) back in 1999...when that tanked it took me a while to discover the current forum.
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Old 03-13-2014, 03:03 PM   #30
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Some of your satisfied customers have outed themselves when they thanked you and/or posted up on the results of your work, and anyone who has been a forum member for a while (should) know both of us. Heck, I still know my password to the (Greg's) old forum (runlevelzero.com) back in 1999...when that tanked it took me a while to discover the current forum.
Well ok then,, and thank you

And HERE IT IS...
Exactly 1 pound lighter then it started




I'll install the starter clutch here in a few and it's ready when you are.
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