JRip

I got my Kreigger manual ccts installed but I know I got the "finger tight" tensions all messed up. So basically I need to tune the amount of tension today. I read many posts that indicate that this can be done by ear.

I recall one post which mentioned a certain rattle of the cam chains when the clutch was pulled in... correct if I'm wrong, but that chain rattle when the clutch is in indicates not enough tension. Am I right?

Thanks for your help.
Jim

7moore7

Here is my understanding of it:

Any kind of rattle with OEM cct's = Bad
Rattle with Manuals when cold= Good
Rattle with Manuals when warm= Bad

The CCT's only keep enough tension on the cam chain to not let it skip off the sprockets...the term "tension" has caused some to think that pressure is needed.
I have not tuned mine by ear, so can't speak for that, but gave the chain a good amount of slack when the cam covers were off. From all of the install experts, I don't recall any indication that there should be rattling with the clutch in... I would think that with a warm motor that you don't want any rattling...

killer5280

When I rebuilt my engine I adjusted the CCTs on the bench. I tightened them to the point where the timing marks on the cam sprockets were as close to flush with the edge of the heads as I could get them. At that point the possible deflection of the chain between the cam sprockets is minimal, probably around an eighth of an inch. Experimenting with the engine on the bench I found that any more slack than this caused the chains to slip on the sprockets.

I think many of the problems with manual CCTs are that people are afraid to take all the slack out of the chains for fear of overtightening them, which causes them to be too loose and allows timing to slip. Even a small amount of slack in the chain will cause the cams to slip timing.

I never had any luck at all with the "tuning by ear" method. I could never hear anything that I was sure was a definitive cam chain noise. I think this is probably a dangerous way to try to adjust cam chains.

7moore7

Killer- was that an eighth of an inch total or in each direction? Mine was about an eighth of an inch in each direction (quarter of an inch total) where I felt comfortable.

killer5280

Each direction. It was probably slightly less than a quarter of an inch total. This was five years ago and I haven't adjusted anything since, so I should probably check it again just to be sure of the deflection.

JRip

I just had my brother in-law (riding for 25 years) have a look at what my concern was and he said it sounded perfect.

The rattle sound on start-up that I was hearing was the clutch plates. I guess I never paid that much attention to that sound before. But apparently a little clutch chatter is normal.

Once the bike was fully warmed up, with the clutch-in, the bike was dead-quiet meaning that the cam chain was not making any sounds at all.

Thanks for this very detailed thread on how to do the procedure!

nath981

warm the motor by riding around the block. lightly tighten cct nut with a small wrench until it stops. This tells you where all the slack is out of the chain. Back it off a full turn and tighten again as a double check. Then back it off a full turn and see it you can finger tighten. If you can, do it; if not, add a half turn with the wrench and tighten the locknut while holding the adjuster in place. So this tells you where full tension is(too tight) and and a little less(relax tension) than this is what you want; it is unlike the rear chain where you have to account for the movement of the swingarm. That's the way I do it.

when you check the valves, you can play with the cct adjuster to see what happens to the chain with the above procedure and then you'll know how the chain is affected by tightening.

klx678

I would agree, but add the other direction is a problem too.

It is interesting that both the directions on the two Superhawk/Firestorm forums I am a member of and everything I have learned over the past decade related to this seems to be ignored by some people. The directions say "finger tight". I am betting no one here could generate 5 inch/lb. of torque on an 8mm bolt using just their fingers - I'd be surprised if they could do 1 inch/lb. So it is essentially impossible to overtighten the adjuster bolts when following instructions. I've also found that the fine adjusting while running is not really needed for the most part, that the cold adjustment of "finger tight then back off about 1/8-1/4 turn" is plenty sufficient to keep the cam drive from being so tight as to prematurely wear or damage parts or to allow cam timing to jump.

Most riders of in-line air cooled four Kawasakis don't do the fine adjustment. I didn't with my four. It is just plain hot trying to reach in under the carburetors behind the cylinders to get to the adjuster. On the bikes where the adjuster is easily accessed the fine tuning is easy. I adjust the big single while idling and at full operating temp, because it is easy. Both are doing fine.

When using wrenches extra care must be given to make sure not to overtighten, since the actual turning force is extremely low. Fact is if you feel ANY turning resistance when using a wrench, the adjuster is too tight. I know that from doing the KLX, there is almost no resistance to turning when adjusting the cam drive by ear, as the ticking goes silent. It was always less than 1/4 turn from hearing a faint ticking to being silent too. One way to hear the ticking is to use a mechanic's stethoscope.

But actually doing the simple cold set will be sufficient.

jaypo

So I changed mine out and after rereading this thread several times the rear went smooth with no problem. The front however I was on exhaust stroke and not compression stroke and heard the cam move. So I pulled the valve cover off and after putting in the CCT and tightening it up, rotated the crank till at TDC on compression stroke and moved the intake cam back a few teeth until it was lined up right.

Here is the video. Hope my failure to do it right helps someone. Also apologize if my terminology isn't right on anything.

Some tools which are very useful doing this;
hex head sockets
swivel socket - reaching the front valve cover bolts on the top.

All went well and she is running great.

Superhawk CCT replacement - YouTube

nath981

a little confusion for me with your explanation. The implication that no one could likely generate 5 inch/lb of torque and not even 1inch/lb is that it would be impossible to get the even get it tight enough with finger pressure, yet later you say finger tight and back off an 1/8 to 1/4.

klx678

There would have to be enough play to allow the chain to actually lift a significant distance up to move over the teeth on one of the sprockets. that would be a few turns out with one of my manual tensioners, since one full turn with the M8-1.25 I use only works out to about .050 movement.

Overtightening will likely draw a bit of power, cause wear on at least the slider and possibly the chain, and at worst will pull the cam hard enough to break the oil film in the bearing surface of the head and cause metal to metal contact. So you see the reason for saying finger tighten. At best I would bet few people could generate a few inch/pounds of tension. I tried putting a 13mm socket on an inch/pound torque wrench and couldn't twist hard enough to even start to deflect the beam.

More and more I am finding simply doing the cold adjustment of finger tight then loosening 1/8-1/4 turn is sufficient to have good adjustment. With a new drive chain it is likely the chain will seat in and need adjustment in a few thousand miles and it will have a noticable ticking - unless you have seriously loud pipes or intake roar - and that is when it needs adjustment. Either do the cold set again or do the adjustment by hand while hot (with a pair of gloves, it's gonna be hot).

To hear ticking you could use a long handle screwdriver with the tip against the tensioner body and the handle against your ear, a mechanic's stethoscope, or I had one rider mention grinding the tip of a bolt down, cutting off the head, and sticking it in an appropriate size piece of soft tubing to stick in your ear - the soft plastic hose, the bolt tip goes against what you want to audibly inspect. I'd buy the stethoscope from ebay for $10... hey, I already did that.

Knowing chains don't like to be run under any more tension than necessary squeezing oil out of them, I would prefer to err to the side of being slightly loose, using the finger tight/back out method.

Tuning the cam drive by ear is only dangerous if you 1) can not hear the ticking or 2) think that once the ticking is gone, turn it another 1/4 turn.

For those who can not hear, we learned from the Eliminators that you can feel the cam drive tapping against the adjuster bolt when it is loose. Made sense after I remembered how one adjusts an SR500 cam chain adjuster (manual OEM). They have a sort of pin with the head against the chain slider and the shaft routed through the hollow adjuster bolt. The tip is flush with the end of the bolt. When the drive is too loose the end of the pin will dance in and out. The bolt is turned in until the tip of the pin just comes to a stop. There is virtually no torque on the bolt beyond what is required to overcome friction and the bit of kick back from the cam drive as the valve train bumps over the cam lobes. When the tapping is just gone (physically through the adjuster bolt or audibly, both happen virtually simultaneously) the cam drive is as close to perfect adjustment as possible. Oddly enough it is about finger tight backed off about one flat when cold... imagine that!

I've never had to adjust the cam drive on the KLX any more than about 1/8 turn to take out the light ticking when it needed adjusted as the chains seated in. It's been several thousand miles since the last ticking and adjustment. Now it ticks when cold and quiets down when warmed up.

To sum it up... if you actually physically have to use a wrench to loosen or tighten a manual adjuster due to the torque, you are WAY too tight. If you have to use a wrench to get to the adjuster bolt, that's another story, just don't overtighten the bolt.

I have two riders who have come up with two ways to get to their KLX250 adjusters which are so close to the exhaust that an allen nut had to be used instead of a regular nut - no room for a wrench to fit. One used a flex drive socket extension to curve up and away from the obstruction (and heat), the other used a very long socket extension to get back away where he had room to adjust the bolt. Both used the finger tightning method turning the ratchet end of the extensions.

I'm just giving what I've learned from about 500 or more parts out in the motorcycling community around the world. The only issues I've ever heard of came from ignoring the instructions given by any tensioner maker and over tightening the adjusters to the point where they drag down the engine. It is the job of the locking nut to secure the adjuster bolt position, not how tight it is against the cam drive slider and chain.

klx678

I apologise for the oversight of not giving the explanation, I usually do.

The reason I say finger tight then back off 1/8-1/4 is for thermal expansion. As metal heats up (and most everything else) it expands. The engine parts expand and there needs to be several thousandths play or clearance when cold to compensate for this growth. The goal is not perfect adjustment when cold, but when at full operating temperature, when all the engine parts are at near maximum expansion.

That is why manual adjusters set properly will tick a bit when cold, but quiet down when warmed up... thermal expansion.

I don't know if I said "no one" but with a 13mm nut head, it would take "the human Vise Grip" to do it.

nath981

thanks for the get back. It's amazing how difficult it can be to explain things that you can feel or know well. Sometimes it takes several explanations until something clicks. For some unknown reason, I couldn't turn mine either way by hand with the lock nut loose, so I took the slack out with a small wrench, tightening and loosening, then backed off a little and finger tightened with gloves and backed off a hair. Thanks for the help.

mertechperformance