New caliper mounting bolts necessary?
05-20-2010, 11:46 AM
#1
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New caliper mounting bolts necessary?
In the owners manual it says that, when replacing the front brake pads, you should replace the caliper mounting bolts with new ones. Is this absoultely necessary or just a fancy scheme to make some moolah?
05-20-2010, 11:54 AM
#2
my e-penis is huge!!
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Honda's way of keeping possitive cash flow. Dont sweat it. I never changed mine in 38000 miles, multiple pads/ caliper configurations. Remember to properly torque them though.
05-20-2010, 11:56 AM
#3
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Little of both... The bolts are torqued to a pretty high and specific number and will stretch after a few iterations... So there is a reason... I change them after 3-4 pad swaps, no need to do it every time...
05-20-2010, 11:56 AM
#4
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Thanks! I try to stick to the manual as I'm pretty **** about keeping my bikes up but I know full well that companies love to throw little hooks in there to keep your wallet open.
05-20-2010, 12:00 PM
#5
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make your own decisions: from my point of view you can re-use them. I think the point is that honda sells them with thread-lock of some type already applied and it gums up the threads on the bolts. Easier to say simply replace the bolts. So when I remove them I clean them very well with a cleaner and brass brush to be sure the threads are clean and re-apply locker. I have never had a problem, nor has anyone else i know of.
Otherwise each time you change the wheel you are going to be looking at replacing the bolts and it just doesn't seem necessary.
Sorry for repeat info- these other guys are too fast!
Otherwise each time you change the wheel you are going to be looking at replacing the bolts and it just doesn't seem necessary.
Sorry for repeat info- these other guys are too fast!
05-20-2010, 12:19 PM
#7
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Well these guys have covered the issue pretty good but I will add my experiences to this. I believe it is just Honda covering there *** as some ham fist the destroyer reused a damaged bolt and then tried to sue Honda for it.
As for my bike.... I bought it new in 9\97. For the first 2 years I had it, it was my only transportation and I lived in the Santa Cruz Mts. So I would go through a front tire every 4 weeks. Things did slow down a bit when I moved back to the flat lands and also bought a car but the bike is right at 80k miles now, so I've gone through a lot of front tires.
I have also had 2 different sets of calipers along with 2 different front ends on the bike.
The point of all this is to give to an idea of how many times my front caliper bolts have been removed, as they are still the original ones. So I think it's safe to say they can be reused a few times......
As for my bike.... I bought it new in 9\97. For the first 2 years I had it, it was my only transportation and I lived in the Santa Cruz Mts. So I would go through a front tire every 4 weeks. Things did slow down a bit when I moved back to the flat lands and also bought a car but the bike is right at 80k miles now, so I've gone through a lot of front tires.
I have also had 2 different sets of calipers along with 2 different front ends on the bike.
The point of all this is to give to an idea of how many times my front caliper bolts have been removed, as they are still the original ones. So I think it's safe to say they can be reused a few times......
05-20-2010, 04:03 PM
#8
pragmatic anarchist
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I replace mine in the caliper mounting bolt hole before riding whenever I have removed them. When they stretch I just turn them a little further to tighten them to spec. Unless I set them down next to my wheel spacers. Then they're gone! Sorry guys!
05-20-2010, 04:19 PM
#9
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The bolts for the stock brakes are M8 25 mm long and are torqued to 30 Nm...
On the radial I use the bolts are hollow M10 at 62 mm, torqued to 45 Nm...
Trust me, there is a difference and the radial caliper bolts needs replacing after a few iterations... I have had one stretch to the point it was visible... Felt really strange when I torqued it, so I took it out again and it was visibly longer than the others... Or actually, it "sounded" strange...
But I'm not going to spend money on replacing them every time... Like I said, a couple of pads, and a couple of tires... Dunno exactly how many times they have been on and off, but I used the first used set with the forks for two years and more than one tire, and these are on their second year and third tire...
On the radial I use the bolts are hollow M10 at 62 mm, torqued to 45 Nm...
Trust me, there is a difference and the radial caliper bolts needs replacing after a few iterations... I have had one stretch to the point it was visible... Felt really strange when I torqued it, so I took it out again and it was visibly longer than the others... Or actually, it "sounded" strange...
But I'm not going to spend money on replacing them every time... Like I said, a couple of pads, and a couple of tires... Dunno exactly how many times they have been on and off, but I used the first used set with the forks for two years and more than one tire, and these are on their second year and third tire...
05-20-2010, 04:42 PM
#10
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That is a big difference and I can see why the ones used on a radial set up would need to be replaced at regular intervals.
Also the fact that a lot of folks wouldn't know when a bolt "felt" strange is why Honda calls out for the to be replaced every time.
Also the fact that a lot of folks wouldn't know when a bolt "felt" strange is why Honda calls out for the to be replaced every time.
The bolts for the stock brakes are M8 25 mm long and are torqued to 30 Nm...
On the radial I use the bolts are hollow M10 at 62 mm, torqued to 45 Nm...
Trust me, there is a difference and the radial caliper bolts needs replacing after a few iterations... I have had one stretch to the point it was visible... Felt really strange when I torqued it, so I took it out again and it was visibly longer than the others... Or actually, it "sounded" strange...
But I'm not going to spend money on replacing them every time... Like I said, a couple of pads, and a couple of tires... Dunno exactly how many times they have been on and off, but I used the first used set with the forks for two years and more than one tire, and these are on their second year and third tire...
On the radial I use the bolts are hollow M10 at 62 mm, torqued to 45 Nm...
Trust me, there is a difference and the radial caliper bolts needs replacing after a few iterations... I have had one stretch to the point it was visible... Felt really strange when I torqued it, so I took it out again and it was visibly longer than the others... Or actually, it "sounded" strange...
But I'm not going to spend money on replacing them every time... Like I said, a couple of pads, and a couple of tires... Dunno exactly how many times they have been on and off, but I used the first used set with the forks for two years and more than one tire, and these are on their second year and third tire...
04-06-2016, 10:07 AM
#12
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If you read through the thread the consensus is that a few times of reuse is fine. I have had mine off about three times now I wish in the beginning I would have measured the bolt to establish a baseline for any stretch.
The bolts are actually quite soft I wonder if stretch is designed into the system to provide enough holding power with out damaging the threads in the fork legs.
I'm having a hard time understanding how 22 pounds of torque could stretch a steel bolt of that diameter unless it was designed to stretch.
The bolts are actually quite soft I wonder if stretch is designed into the system to provide enough holding power with out damaging the threads in the fork legs.
I'm having a hard time understanding how 22 pounds of torque could stretch a steel bolt of that diameter unless it was designed to stretch.
04-06-2016, 03:09 PM
#13
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Is it so much the torque load that stretches them or the torsional load of the calipers that contributes to the issue that makes Honda think the bolts need to be replaced at every pad change out. 22 lbs isn't that much and over time I can see that thread stretching.
The strain from the torsional load seems like it would be more then the initial torque over time. Maybe it's the combination of torque plus torsion that Honda is worried about.
The strain from the torsional load seems like it would be more then the initial torque over time. Maybe it's the combination of torque plus torsion that Honda is worried about.
04-06-2016, 04:59 PM
#14
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I'm thinking it's a sheer load on the bolts but I could be wrong.
I stated in my previous post that the bolts were kind of soft. I had the caliper bolts mixed up in my head with the axle pinch bolts, one of which I boogered up slightly.
So ignore what I posted, I'm going to go have some more Elvis drugs.
I stated in my previous post that the bolts were kind of soft. I had the caliper bolts mixed up in my head with the axle pinch bolts, one of which I boogered up slightly.
So ignore what I posted, I'm going to go have some more Elvis drugs.
04-06-2016, 09:37 PM
#15
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I have my calipers off right now. I almost want to take the bolts and see how straight they are. The PO couldn't tell me when the last time they were changed out. Might have to break out a good ol digital gauge and measure increments along the shank to see if it's bent in the slightest. Might even run a die down the threads to see if one side turns up brighter then the other.
Could be a simple test to see if it is actual torsional load or just the actual torque load that makes Honda think they need to be replaced ever pad change.
Could be a simple test to see if it is actual torsional load or just the actual torque load that makes Honda think they need to be replaced ever pad change.
04-06-2016, 10:27 PM
#16
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You guys need to ask the Internet about threaded fastener torque, clamping force and stretch. Watch for words like fatigue, elasticity and fracture. I could explain it all here, but I'd need some charts and an easel.
And in all seriousness, I feel some of the anecdotal information in this thread is misleading. One individual may get by doing something which flies in the face of all the engineering data and material science, but it only takes one instance of a failed bolt to seriously injure or kill you. You have to make your own decision in a case like this, but make that decision based on sound data rather than what's worked for one person who may or may not be the norm. That said, I believe any manufacturer is going to make recommendations on the very cautious side of acceptable when it comes to something any untrained monkey like one of us may wrench on. This isn't to get rich selling us bolts, it's to stay rich by safeguarding themselves from lawsuits.
And in all seriousness, I feel some of the anecdotal information in this thread is misleading. One individual may get by doing something which flies in the face of all the engineering data and material science, but it only takes one instance of a failed bolt to seriously injure or kill you. You have to make your own decision in a case like this, but make that decision based on sound data rather than what's worked for one person who may or may not be the norm. That said, I believe any manufacturer is going to make recommendations on the very cautious side of acceptable when it comes to something any untrained monkey like one of us may wrench on. This isn't to get rich selling us bolts, it's to stay rich by safeguarding themselves from lawsuits.
04-06-2016, 11:22 PM
#17
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More than likely more of a "well can you provide proof you changed out those bolts as scheduled by our recommended maintenance or not?" in case there were any legal action claiming any type of brake failure
I know of no reason for bolts to "fail" other than breaking visibly (and annoying usually). A fair amount of the time it's a stronger harder fastener than material it goes into (in my anecdotal mere opinion)
I know of no reason for bolts to "fail" other than breaking visibly (and annoying usually). A fair amount of the time it's a stronger harder fastener than material it goes into (in my anecdotal mere opinion)
04-12-2016, 05:38 AM
#20
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I agree a thread gauge is the way to check for stretch in the threaded portion. With caliper bolts most stretch will occur in the non- threaded portion. Remember that any fastener, (capscrew is the proper name) is nothing but a solid spring. The torque stretches the spring, the spring has memory and so tries it's best to return to it's static length. It is this force that provides the clamping that anchors the part "bolted" onto the bike. Fastener threads should be dry and clean when assembling unless the mfg notes the addition of thread lock. For general uses, thread lock will reduce the amount of torque needed to "spring the fastener " by 10%, antiseize will reduce it by 30-40%. Manufacturer's published figures take all of this into account, follow them! If there were no lawyers, things like change your caliper bolts would never make it into the manual...
All that said I road raced for 15 years locally and nationally and crewed for an additional 5 years past that, we changed brake pads way more frequently than anyone would on the street, and never, ever did we need to change out the caliper bolts on any bike. Further more during those years I never saw or heard of a brake caliper bolt failure... The biggest source of catastrophic failure? Drive Chains!
All that said I road raced for 15 years locally and nationally and crewed for an additional 5 years past that, we changed brake pads way more frequently than anyone would on the street, and never, ever did we need to change out the caliper bolts on any bike. Further more during those years I never saw or heard of a brake caliper bolt failure... The biggest source of catastrophic failure? Drive Chains!
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