Technical Discussion Topics related to Technical Issues

Tweety and others.. EarthX battery's

Old 04-05-2014, 07:12 AM
  #1  
Moderator
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Tweety and others.. EarthX battery's

Tweety, and others ... have you seen a new'ish player on the Lithium battery market?
Earthx Our Batteries | EarthX Motorsports

Claims of a built in BMS are interesting

@ 140 + to build my own 6 cells ( I buy piece meal, not cells in quantity) Im looking at other options.

thoughts?
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 04-05-2014, 08:22 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
xeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bisbee, AZ
Posts: 1,463
xeris is on a distinguished road
They are really emphasizing the need for a BMS. A nice feature, but not necessary if you don't abuse the battery. Wonder whose cells are inside.
After looking at the prices, you'd be hard pressed to build one at that price.
I take that back. $219+shipping is up there.

Last edited by xeris; 04-05-2014 at 08:29 AM. Reason: addition
xeris is offline  
Old 04-05-2014, 08:49 AM
  #3  
Moderator
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by xeris View Post
They are really emphasizing the need for a BMS. A nice feature, but not necessary if you don't abuse the battery. Wonder whose cells are inside.
After looking at the prices, you'd be hard pressed to build one at that price.
I take that back. $219+shipping is up there.
So I know some will take exception to the wording of "required" for BMS,, thats debatable, and also tied with the specific goals for the battery and intended use. If you want max performance and less concerns with how used, charged, discharged, ect. the BMS is "required"

But who will say having a BMS is not desirable? When the buy in is $$$$$ for a BMS, we say its not "Needed" but if the BMS was scaled down to having only to manage a specific battery type, size, capacity and the cost scaled back as well.. if it was included in the battery assembly for just a few dollars above a like battery without BMS.. I find that quite except able .

as for whose cells? Good question, for sure not A123
Attached Thumbnails Tweety and others.. EarthX battery's-earthx-battery.jpg  
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 04-05-2014, 08:57 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
xeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bisbee, AZ
Posts: 1,463
xeris is on a distinguished road
I'm in total agreement with you. A BMS is a worth while feature for the health of an expensive part.
xeris is offline  
Old 04-06-2014, 12:58 AM
  #5  
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
 
Tweety's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Tweety is on a distinguished road
My question would be what the specs on the BMS are? Since they give no details what-so-ever, I'd say it's not likely to be very sophisticated...

Over/under charge protection and short circuit is most likely just achieved by a diode clamp... About as sophisticated as a 1700 century broadsword... And if they are in fact balancing internally, it's most likely just a small charge controller switching the clamps on and off... Which means it's almost 100% certain to be parts meant for a LiPo RC battery re purposed for this...

Bottom line, I'd pass... I can build a better BMS myself, for less money than this... But, 5 years and counting without one, I just wouldn't bother...
Tweety is offline  
Old 04-06-2014, 06:18 AM
  #6  
Moderator
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
My question would be what the specs on the BMS are? Since they give no details what-so-ever, I'd say it's not likely to be very sophisticated...

Over/under charge protection and short circuit is most likely just achieved by a diode clamp... About as sophisticated as a 1700 century broadsword... And if they are in fact balancing internally, it's most likely just a small charge controller switching the clamps on and off... Which means it's almost 100% certain to be parts meant for a LiPo RC battery re purposed for this...

Bottom line, I'd pass... I can build a better BMS myself, for less money than this... But, 5 years and counting without one, I just wouldn't bother...
Tweety, thanks.

I had my doubts they could have fiscally managed a fully function BMS into each battery.. but know when things are scratched designed with limited purpose, modern tech, ect many times what is much $$ as a stand alone item can be incorporated into an assembly at a fraction of the cost.. so was hopeful.

That big ??? along with the cells they are using (a big unknown with lots of marketing words and no great tech / specs provided... mostly just ours are better then theirs,, trust us,, crap) and highish price ... I'll stick with building my own and winging it for now.

But damn $22 per cell with shipping... and Im at $132 for just cells on a 6 cell battery.

Wish i could buy in bulk,,,, but just not ready to drop that much $$$$
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 04-06-2014, 09:20 AM
  #7  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
xeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bisbee, AZ
Posts: 1,463
xeris is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post

But damn $22 per cell with shipping... and Im at $132 for just cells on a 6 cell battery.

Wish i could buy in bulk,,,, but just not ready to drop that much $$$$
That cost per cell is what is also keeping me from building a pack as I have several more important and expensive mods higher on the priority list
To better my understanding of this subject, what configuration are you planning using with six cells? 3s2p? I can't get the charge voltage to be proper with that arrangement.
You'd think that after a year or so of reading about this I'd know, but don't.
xeris is offline  
Old 04-06-2014, 09:30 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
skokievtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,936
skokievtr is on a distinguished road
LiPo Group Buy

I've been on the fence to BMO and cell cost was an issue. Why don't we do a group buy and see how low we can get the unit cost down?

BTW, with my accessories, I think I need want an 8 cell pack; 6 cells seems marginal based on what Markus has said.

What cell mfgr would be the most appropriate cost vs performance, and are there buss bars of proper gauge and size readily available?
skokievtr is offline  
Old 04-06-2014, 09:43 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
xeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bisbee, AZ
Posts: 1,463
xeris is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
I've been on the fence to BMO and cell cost was an issue. Why don't we do a group buy and see how low we can get the unit cost down?

BTW, with my accessories, I think I need want an 8 cell pack; 6 cells seems marginal based on what Markus has said.

What cell mfgr would be the most appropriate cost vs performance, and are there buss bars of proper gauge and size readily available?
Can't seem to find my bookmark for them, but there are buss bars that would be sized for the app we're using the cells for.
Not sure I would take a chance on these but they are inexpensive.
Sony Lithium 26650 Li ion 3 7V 50A 2600mAh US26650VT High Drain EV Battery Cell | eBay
xeris is offline  
Old 04-06-2014, 09:58 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
skokievtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,936
skokievtr is on a distinguished road
Terminal oxidation due to moist environment in shipping, full capacity without cycling, etc... you may get what you pay for. However, they interestingly offer without note on gauge/size of buss bars

Welding Service

We offer free-charge Welding Service!

You may send message to us if you need solder the tabs or Series / Parallel - Connected spot welding.

Its better if you could send us a drawing or picture by mail.

Originally Posted by xeris View Post
Can't seem to find my bookmark for them, but there are buss bars that would be sized for the app we're using the cells for.
Not sure I would take a chance on these but they are inexpensive.
Sony Lithium 26650 Li ion 3 7V 50A 2600mAh US26650VT High Drain EV Battery Cell | eBay
skokievtr is offline  
Old 04-07-2014, 12:39 AM
  #11  
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
 
Tweety's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Tweety is on a distinguished road
Actually, since a few guys in the UK wanted packs, and shipping and so on proved to be stupidly expensive, I talked to one of the sellers that I have purchased small quantities from, since he was already selling packs, I offered a few pointers on his designs, which he implemented...

The end result, I got two packs for evaluation, and while they are a bit less over engineered than my packs, they are made with bus bars that are quite adequate, have correct configuration, and come with a quick disconnect... And since they are factory new cells (all i have purchased from this seller checks out), and put in a self-balancing configuration, if used with a reasonable amount of care, they should last a very long time... Bottom line, I'm comfortable recommending them...

Could be an alternative to making you own, for a decent price...

8 Cell A123 Motorcycle Start Battery 13 2V4 6AH 12V New with Quick Disconnect | eBay
Tweety is offline  
Old 04-07-2014, 06:26 AM
  #12  
Moderator
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Actually, since a few guys in the UK wanted packs, and shipping and so on proved to be stupidly expensive, I talked to one of the sellers that I have purchased small quantities from, since he was already selling packs, I offered a few pointers on his designs, which he implemented...

The end result, I got two packs for evaluation, and while they are a bit less over engineered than my packs, they are made with bus bars that are quite adequate, have correct configuration, and come with a quick disconnect... And since they are factory new cells (all i have purchased from this seller checks out), and put in a self-balancing configuration, if used with a reasonable amount of care, they should last a very long time... Bottom line, I'm comfortable recommending them...

Could be an alternative to making you own, for a decent price...

8 Cell A123 Motorcycle Start Battery 13 2V4 6AH 12V New with Quick Disconnect | eBay
Have to look at this..
@ $138 shipped, that's cheaper then I can get 8 cells for, never mind my cabling, buss bar making, hunk of shrink wrap and my time.
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:30 AM
  #13  
European Member
Back Marker
 
RoadManiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 193
RoadManiac is on a distinguished road
Very interesting to see more people making their on battery's
my friends are all a bit scared of lithium and are swearing by their lead brick of a heavy POS battery, and there like yeah what if it explodes etc. etc.

First off all i ride R/C cars for 10 years now and ive been riding with Lipo's for 4 years and none of my batterys ever exploded and thats not even Lifepo4's wich are even more safe.

I made a 8 cell pack off these, and with battery bars it was about 105 dollar i believe
A123-3.3V Lithium Ion 2500mAh Single Cell Battery

those tabs wich or on there are for the balancing leeds but can be removed very easy

and for 4 cilinder 600 & 750 bikes ( I use it for me GSXR 750) these are good and half the price of the A123
maybe with a good R/R this also works on the Hawk (i am gonna test it when i get my R/R)
Turnigy 4500mAh 2S2P 30C LiFePo4 Pack

some nice options i think
RoadManiac is offline  
Old 04-07-2014, 09:16 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
skokievtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,936
skokievtr is on a distinguished road
Markus,

Having reached the half century + 10 mark, my long term memory has joined my short term somewhere between the bed and the bathroom every day at 5 AM, so please reiterate what your definition or prescription for what "a reasonable amount of care" should be. Also, for a lot of accessories (i.e., heated vest, glove/grips, driving lights, etc), would a 10 or even 12 cell unit be better/possible; and do you think this vendor would make one?

BTW, you ignored my last inquiry in another thread as to the reconstruction status of the homestead is and SWMBO's procreation demands (she's not getting any younger as she must remind you weekly at least)? Was your recent winter as bad as ours?

Originally Posted by Tweety View Post
Actually, since a few guys in the UK wanted packs, and shipping and so on proved to be stupidly expensive, I talked to one of the sellers that I have purchased small quantities from, since he was already selling packs, I offered a few pointers on his designs, which he implemented...

The end result, I got two packs for evaluation, and while they are a bit less over engineered than my packs, they are made with bus bars that are quite adequate, have correct configuration, and come with a quick disconnect... And since they are factory new cells (all i have purchased from this seller checks out), and put in a self-balancing configuration, if used with a reasonable amount of care, they should last a very long time... Bottom line, I'm comfortable recommending them...

Could be an alternative to making you own, for a decent price...

8 Cell A123 Motorcycle Start Battery 13 2V4 6AH 12V New with Quick Disconnect | eBay

Last edited by skokievtr; 04-07-2014 at 10:27 AM.
skokievtr is offline  
Old 04-07-2014, 12:20 PM
  #15  
Moderator
MotoGP
Thread Starter
 
E.Marquez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Kempner, TX
Posts: 4,253
E.Marquez is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by RoadManiac View Post
Very interesting to see more people making their on battery's
my friends are all a bit scared of lithium and are swearing by their lead brick of a heavy POS battery, and there like yeah what if it explodes etc. etc.
Suggest your friends research LiFePO4 and learn why they are different then the LiPoly cells of RC car fame.

someone is very confused or just not up to speed and the battery type being discussed (not you RoadManiac, your friends)
E.Marquez is offline  
Old 04-07-2014, 12:46 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
MotoGP
 
7moore7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 3,867
7moore7 is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Suggest your friends research LiFePO4 and learn why they are different then the LiPoly cells of RC car fame.
+1
7moore7 is offline  
Old 04-07-2014, 08:07 PM
  #17  
Member
Squid
 
Mikael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 85
Mikael is on a distinguished road
What about these batteries?

Batteries - Ballistic Performance Components

Bit pricey on their site but I have seen these elsewhere for a lot cheaper.
Mikael is offline  
Old 04-08-2014, 03:34 AM
  #18  
European Member
Back Marker
 
RoadManiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 193
RoadManiac is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
Suggest your friends research LiFePO4 and learn why they are different then the LiPoly cells of RC car fame.

someone is very confused or just not up to speed and the battery type being discussed (not you RoadManiac, your friends)
Believe me Ive tried but some of my friends have seen a Lipo explode so now their all *****'s

as for the BMS featured on the Earthx batterys... in my eyes it just BS
i NEVER had any BMS on my RC battery's and i still run cheap turnigy lipo's that are 4 years old and they still work only not at optimal level,
wich makes me hard to believe that the earthx battery's last 8000 cycles or 8 years.
RoadManiac is offline  
Old 04-08-2014, 07:07 AM
  #19  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
xeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bisbee, AZ
Posts: 1,463
xeris is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by RoadManiac View Post
Wouldn't you have to use two of those in series to get proper voltage?
I wonder what gauge wire is used as it is not stated in the specs.

Here are some buss bars.
Battery Bars for Sub-C Cells (10pcs)
According to info posted by Tweety in an another battery thread these are a little light. Should be more like 1mmx10mmxlength to span past center on a 26650 cell. They are close though and at 29.7 they should be long enough.
I made some from copper sheet that is .04in (about 1mm) thick and cut them .4in (10mm) wide. Was going to make a test pack (4s2p) with some 18650 cells I robbed from a dewalt 20v pack. But have since thought it is not such a good idea and shelved the project until I can justify some 26650 cells
xeris is offline  
Old 04-08-2014, 07:14 AM
  #20  
Senior Member
SuperBike
 
xeris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Bisbee, AZ
Posts: 1,463
xeris is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by RoadManiac View Post
Very interesting to see more people making their on battery's
my friends are all a bit scared of lithium and are swearing by their lead brick of a heavy POS battery, and there like yeah what if it explodes etc. etc.

First off all i ride R/C cars for 10 years now and ive been riding with Lipo's for 4 years and none of my batterys ever exploded and thats not even Lifepo4's wich are even more safe.

I made a 8 cell pack off these, and with battery bars it was about 105 dollar i believe
A123-3.3V Lithium Ion 2500mAh Single Cell Battery

those tabs wich or on there are for the balancing leeds but can be removed very easy

and for 4 cilinder 600 & 750 bikes ( I use it for me GSXR 750) these are good and half the price of the A123
maybe with a good R/R this also works on the Hawk (i am gonna test it when i get my R/R)
Turnigy 4500mAh 2S2P 30C LiFePo4 Pack

some nice options i think
Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
So I know some will take exception to the wording of "required" for BMS,, thats debatable, and also tied with the specific goals for the battery and intended use. If you want max performance and less concerns with how used, charged, discharged, ect. the BMS is "required"

But who will say having a BMS is not desirable? When the buy in is $$$$$ for a BMS, we say its not "Needed" but if the BMS was scaled down to having only to manage a specific battery type, size, capacity and the cost scaled back as well.. if it was included in the battery assembly for just a few dollars above a like battery without BMS.. I find that quite except able .

as for whose cells? Good question, for sure not A123
After looking at this photo I wonder if the cells inside are multiple layers of lithpoly cells. Would explain why the need for a BMS. Hmmm, if so I wouldn't want that under my a**
xeris is offline  
Old 04-08-2014, 08:25 AM
  #21  
European Member
Back Marker
 
RoadManiac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 193
RoadManiac is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by xeris View Post
Wouldn't you have to use two of those in series to get proper voltage?
I wonder what gauge wire is used as it is not stated in the specs.

Here are some buss bars.
Battery Bars for Sub-C Cells (10pcs)
According to info posted by Tweety in an another battery thread these are a little light. Should be more like 1mmx10mmxlength to span past center on a 26650 cell. They are close though and at 29.7 they should be long enough.
I made some from copper sheet that is .04in (about 1mm) thick and cut them .4in (10mm) wide. Was going to make a test pack (4s2p) with some 18650 cells I robbed from a dewalt 20v pack. But have since thought it is not such a good idea and shelved the project until I can justify some 26650 cells
Yes on the 2S2P turnigy pack they need to be in serial pattern to get the right voltage, as for ther wire their 10awg plenty big enough

as for ther battery bars for the 2500 single A123 cell they just make it. ..length wise, i used 2 of them on each connection as i thought there a little small

and something that always bothered my is that some lithium marketed battery's have the clamp on O type connector that screws to the oem polarity tabs, i am gonna ditch al that and go with heavy duty gold connector for even less resistance.
RoadManiac is offline  
Old 04-13-2014, 03:27 AM
  #22  
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
 
Tweety's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Tweety is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by skokievtr View Post
Markus,

Having reached the half century + 10 mark, my long term memory has joined my short term somewhere between the bed and the bathroom every day at 5 AM, so please reiterate what your definition or prescription for what "a reasonable amount of care" should be. Also, for a lot of accessories (i.e., heated vest, glove/grips, driving lights, etc), would a 10 or even 12 cell unit be better/possible; and do you think this vendor would make one?

BTW, you ignored my last inquiry in another thread as to the reconstruction status of the homestead is and SWMBO's procreation demands (she's not getting any younger as she must remind you weekly at least)? Was your recent winter as bad as ours?
Well, as for maintenance, really less is more... The most important thing is to swap your R/R for either a mosfet type or a very good OEM style, and monitor it (a dash mounted voltage meter is a good way)... Running a battery pack like this on a marginal R/R is plain and simple stupid, as low charge voltage, or a slow rate of charge is a sure way to kill it... And it's much more sensitive to over voltage than a lead lump is...

If possible don't drain it fully, and don't leave it uncharged, as that kills the battery for sure... If you do drain it, it's better to bump start the bike and run it to charge the battery, than to use a charger, unless you know exactly what to do... That keeps it from being overcharged... And do that as fast as possible, really...

When the bike is sitting, not being ridden daily or at least weekly, unplug the battery, as the slow draining is really bad for it, it likes fast charges and fast discharges much better...

Other than that, treat it just like you would any other motorcycle battery... Plain and simple...

For a standard VTR, no accessories what-so-ever, summer riding, a 4 cell pack is just fine... For a bone stock VTR, no accessories, ridden in cooler conditions, fall or spring, perhaps even winter, an 8 cell is a must for reliable starts...

If you add ANY accessories, like heated gear, or aux lamps and such, a 12 cell is pretty much a must... 16 cells is probably borderline overkill... As is a pack of 4 of the larger cells... But very nice...

Eh... No... Not ignored... Hadn't read... Sorry... With work, and taking on extra hours, house restorations, which are going somewhat to plan, just slooow, since I'm doing it on a budget on my "spare" time, I haven't got the time to frequent the boards very much... So normally when i return I have to wade through 200+ updated threads...

Yeah, rugrats are still on the to-do list, along with a lot of other stuff... And yeah, I'm reminded of it frequently by the GLW...
Tweety is offline  
Old 04-13-2014, 08:10 AM
  #23  
Old and dangerous
SuperSport
 
rz_racer_69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: DFW Texas
Posts: 604
rz_racer_69 is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
What about these batteries?

Batteries - Ballistic Performance Components

Bit pricey on their site but I have seen these elsewhere for a lot cheaper.
Those look pretty good, and Indy SuperBikes has them for $168. http://www.indysuperbikes.com/product.php?productid=1196641158&gclid=CKnUjd_d3b0 CFexcMgodGg8AgA
rz_racer_69 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Appletonhawk
Classifieds
12
02-11-2014 11:22 AM
Squid
Group Rides
5
06-06-2011 04:19 AM
Billzilla15
Members Rides
9
10-29-2009 11:59 AM
Liquidogged
Modifications - Cosmetic
2
04-25-2009 09:09 PM
Tweety
Technical Discussion
18
12-10-2007 06:28 PM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Tweety and others.. EarthX battery's


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.