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Timing off on rear cylinder?

Old 12-06-2015, 05:30 AM
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Timing off on rear cylinder?

Why does it look like my timings off so bad on the rear cylinder? Pictures taken at top dead center. Looks like intake is a little more off than exhaust. Front cylinders fine. Same number of links between RI and RE on rear as FI and FE on front. If I rotate the engine so RI mark is level with the cylinder head RT isn't even visible through the alternator cover. 25K on the bike and photos are taken with CCT installed. Bike seems to run fine... although I bought it this way so I wouldn't know any difference. Could the timing chain really be stretched that bad? Any ideas? Thanks.
Attached Thumbnails Timing off on rear cylinder?-img_20150906_101532_439.jpg   Timing off on rear cylinder?-img_20150905_190525_506.jpg  
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:18 AM
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I'm not a timing expert by any means but could you explain what kind of cct's are on the bike? Stock automatics or replacement manuals. The cct's seem to be the kiss of death for these bikes because the springs in the automatic cct's goes bad causing a slip at rapid rpm changes.
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:36 AM
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When I took the picture it had stock cct's in there. I replaced them with APE manual cct's and it didn't make any difference in the timing mark position.
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:06 AM
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Who knows what the previous owner did.
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Old 12-06-2015, 10:34 AM
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Timing chain isn't stretched. Timing gear probably rotated upon CCT replacement, and jumped a tooth. Here's a good read on the subject, and will help you fix it.

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...pe-ccts-11275/

If you're the one who did the replacement, try and remember if you heard the chain jump on the gear.
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:22 AM
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What do your cam lobes look like when you have the TDC mark in the hole?
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:56 AM
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From the look of the photo, I'd say the cam timing is off by one tooth on the rear intake cam. When I installed manual CCTs in my 70000km old bike, I couldn't get the timing exactly right between the crank and sprocket but that was due to a little chain stretch and even with that the timing was less than half a tooth off.

The timing marks for both intake and exhaust sprocket should line up exactly parallel with the gasket surface if they are timed correctly to each other.
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Old 12-07-2015, 05:30 PM
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The timing definitely didn't jump... at least when I was working on it. I had the valve covers off and was watching very carefully the whole time. In fact, that picture was before I even removed the stock cct. And since there's the same number of links between RI and RE on rear as FI and FE on front and the front marks line up pretty well with the cylinder head I don't think it could have jumped a tooth. That just makes me think the chains stretched a lot some how. I remember reading somewhere on this forum someone stated the correct amount of links between the RI and RE or FI and FE and I know that's how many I counted (but I forget the actual number). Anybody every replaced one? Are they a pain? What happens if I just rotate the intake cam one tooth so the marks are lined up instead of replacing the chain lol?

I think this picture showing the lobes of the rear was taken at the same time as the one showing the side of the cam (although I could be mistaken). I did this a couple months ago but since it's getting cold out now I figure I'll have some time to sort this out if it's a problem. Thanks for the help.
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Old 12-07-2015, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
What do your cam lobes look like when you have the TDC mark in the hole?
If I wasn't clear in my previous post... I should have said that picture showing the lobes was probably taking with the rear piston at the same position (TDC) as the picture showing the timing marks.
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:54 PM
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Well SP it's not so easy to diagnose at a distance but here's what I know.

When the RT mark on the flywheel is in the right spot, then the rear head sprockets and cams should be as shown:





Here's the alignment (front head) that I actually had with my stretched camchain (with flywheel in the correct position):



You will always have the right number of links between the sprockets, but the sprockets might be rotated relative to each other, or relative to the crank.

First thing I would check is that the timing marks on the sprockets are exactly right relative to each other, i.e. you can rotate them around until the marks for both intake and exhaust are parallel to the head. If you can't do that, then one is offset to the other and out of timing.

Next up is to check that the timing is correct to the crank, bearing in mind some chain stretch will have occurred depending on mileage so the alignment won't be exact.

Of course you've stated that the bike was running fine with the timing as it was (and it is pretty hard to screw this up fitting MCCTs unless the cams were pushing on valves at the time of removal) so maybe just leave it as is?
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Old 12-08-2015, 02:12 PM
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I guess I could leave them the way the are. I'm going to adjust my valves this winter so I can try rotating the intake cam one tooth.

Originally Posted by Cadbury64 View Post
You will always have the right number of links between the sprockets, but the sprockets might be rotated relative to each other, or relative to the crank.
What I got from wyldryce back in 07

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...ff-mark-11614/

"I just posted this in the KB yesterday, but if you have the valve covers off again, I would count the chain links/pins between the timing marks on the intake and exhaust cam. If correct it should be 18 links or 36 pins. If you have that, then you will be in phase and only have to concentrate on getting the timing marks as close to "correct" as you can. Mine done line up 100% either at 34k miles. Mine was doing what you described, and though I thought I was properly adjusted, a simple pin count proved I was a tooth off on my rear cylinder exhaust cam. Not sure why the book doesn't mention counting links/pins. Oh well.
Hope this helps,"
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