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Won't Start :(

Old 11-30-2015, 02:46 PM
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Question Won't Start :(

Alright guys. I bought this 2003 as my first ever project for anything. Of course, the classic CCT broke, so the guy sold it to me super cheap with new MCCT's. I did the valve job, had the seats refaced by a machine shop, everything done properly from the service manual. I replaced all the fluids, gaskets, everything required.

I got it to start up for a few days and rode it around a bit (right before 6k rpm, it would start bogging and cutting in and out of power), then I thought I heard valves (I've never heard that before), so I went to adjust the CCT's by hand, how it's supposed to be adjusted, and it wouldn't turn on. Timing was off. So I pulled the covers, fixed the timing, now it's back to exactly how it was when it drove before and it still won't start.

When the timing got off, i was just adjusting the CCT, starting it for a second or two to hear the chain, then turned it back off and repeat. I doubt the valves would get bent badly enough to not start just from that.

If I spray starter fluid in it, I will get that small pop, but nothing else. It cranks and wants to start, but will not.

Yes, I'm getting spark and both plugs are now in spec.
Yes, I'm getting fuel out of the petcock when sucking on the vacuum line.
No, I don't know if I bent the valves. I'm going to test compression as soon as I can get my hands on a tester.
Yes, I cleaned out the carbs.
No, I don't have any liquid in the float bowls (isn't there supposed to be fuel in there at all times?)


I would like to believe it's just that there's no fuel actually getting to the carbs and I just need to get a jet kit since the cleaning didn't do well enough, but I already rode it a few days ago, so that doesn't make sense. Also, what was that bogging issue at 6k rpm?

Please, ask away and give me anything to test for problems.
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Old 11-30-2015, 03:14 PM
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"right before 6k rpm, it would start bogging and cutting in and out of power"

is the timing 180 out?

Is the vacuum hose on the correct part of the petcock? i.e round the back and to the side instead of pointing downwards.

Check valve gaps to see if you've bent anything.

Last edited by Wicky; 11-30-2015 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 07:47 PM
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Yes, timing is exactly how the service manual shows, using the timing marks on the crankshaft and chain sprockets.

Vacuum hose is on the correct fitting, but it's facing down. That's how I got the bike. It ran just fine other than that problem at 6k rpm. Why do people turn it 90*?

I'm going to check compression and possibly do a leak down test to check for bent valves instead of taking the covers off again and having to deal with those gaskets.

Is there supposed to be fuel in the float bowls?
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by William van Rosmalen View Post
Yes, timing is exactly how the service manual shows, using the timing marks on the crankshaft and chain sprockets.

It can still be 180 out - it'll run but then hit a brick wall at approx 7k revs.

Vacuum hose is on the correct fitting, but it's facing down. That's how I got the bike. It ran just fine other than that problem at 6k rpm. Why do people turn it 90*?

if the vacuum hose is on the downward pointing petcock spigot then its incorrectly fitted as that's an overflow if diaphragm fails. hence why no vacccum allowing fuel to flow through petcock.

I'm going to check compression and possibly do a leak down test to check for bent valves instead of taking the covers off again and having to deal with those gaskets.

Is there supposed to be fuel in the float bowls?

Difficult if fuel isn't flowing from petcock
Have a good search through the workshop knowledgebase for the correct procedure in installation MCCTs and correctly setting the timing.
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by William van Rosmalen View Post
I doubt the valves would get bent badly enough to not start just from that.
No such thing as "bent enough" they are bent, or not. if any, at all they will leak and if ran that way will fail.

This is an interference design, cams more than a few teeth out and you WILL bend the valves.

Yes do a leakdown test if you have the tools, great diag tool for this.
The bottom facing port on the fuel petcock IS NOT the vac port.... Between your runability issues and the no fuel in fuel bowls, and your description of the vac line on the wrong port...Im betting PVLIR https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...es-pics-22048/
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by E.Marquez View Post
No such thing as "bent enough" they are bent, or not. if any, at all they will leak and if ran that way will fail.

This is an interference design, cams more than a few teeth out and you WILL bend the valves.

Yes do a leakdown test if you have the tools, great diag tool for this.
The bottom facing port on the fuel petcock IS NOT the vac port.... Between your runability issues and the no fuel in fuel bowls, and your description of the vac line on the wrong port...Im betting PVLIR https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...es-pics-22048/
I think he meant that the vac port was rotated 90 out to face down. Previous owner probably installed it that way when replacing the diaphrams.

Are you sure you are getting enough power to fire the bike? I had a simular problem where the bike would crank but not fire turned out it was a bad battery and it was brand new.
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Old 12-02-2015, 10:34 AM
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No, I don't have any liquid in the float bowls (isn't there supposed to be fuel in there at all times?)
You may have more than one problem but until you solve this it will not run. No matter how much power you have in the battery or how straight the valves are it is not running. Having said that the float bowls will not fill without vacuum. If you are sure everything is right you can put vacuum to the port on the petcock with the carbs hooked up and they should fill.

If everything else is good the valves can be bent a lot and it will still start and run. I would not run it with bent valves but it should start even if it sounds terrible.

Get fuel to the carbs first then look for other problems if it still wont start.
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Wicky View Post
Have a good search through the workshop knowledgebase for the correct procedure in installation MCCTs and correctly setting the timing.

I did both correctly, by manufacturers instructions and by the service manual, like I said.
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Meier Link View Post
I think he meant that the vac port was rotated 90 out to face down. Previous owner probably installed it that way when replacing the diaphrams.

Are you sure you are getting enough power to fire the bike? I had a simular problem where the bike would crank but not fire turned out it was a bad battery and it was brand new.
Yes, I fully trickle charged the battery. It gets just as much power as hooking it up to my car battery with the car off. That's how I started it when it actually ran.
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Old 12-02-2015, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by waltr View Post
You may have more than one problem but until you solve this it will not run. No matter how much power you have in the battery or how straight the valves are it is not running. Having said that the float bowls will not fill without vacuum. If you are sure everything is right you can put vacuum to the port on the petcock with the carbs hooked up and they should fill.

If everything else is good the valves can be bent a lot and it will still start and run. I would not run it with bent valves but it should start even if it sounds terrible.

Get fuel to the carbs first then look for other problems if it still wont start.
I had the bike on (key turned, not running), sucked through the vac line, but there still isn't any fuel in the bowls. What could cause that? A lot of Fuel comes out if the fuel lines are off and I'm sucking on the vac line. Thanks!
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Old 12-02-2015, 01:38 PM
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Update: compression tester from O'Reilly's doesn't fit and I don't have any tools to make it work.

I turned the vac line port on the pet **** 90*, facing the riders left leg. I'm now getting fuel into the carbs, but I'm not sure if there is any fuel getting to engine. Battery needs to charge before I try again. I'll try to post again tonight.

What did that change on the petcock do?
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Old 12-02-2015, 03:27 PM
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Sounds like the diaphram could of been installed but not seated properly. The direction shouldn't matter because it's on the vacuum side of the diaphram. I have read on here where people have put it on incorrectly.
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Old 12-02-2015, 03:56 PM
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The Craftsman compression tester kit comes with all the correct adapters...

Sounds like you had PVLIR.

James
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:23 AM
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If the engine were fine, it'd at least run a bit with starter fluid or carb cleaner sprayed into it. The fact that it doesn't run with that is not a good sign, especially if you're getting spark.
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Meier Link View Post
Sounds like the diaphram could of been installed but not seated properly. The direction shouldn't matter because it's on the vacuum side of the diaphram. I have read on here where people have put it on incorrectly.
But that's impossible. The bike started and ran before my timing got off, with the vac line facing down.
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
If the engine were fine, it'd at least run a bit with starter fluid or carb cleaner sprayed into it. The fact that it doesn't run with that is not a good sign, especially if you're getting spark.
The engine never ran on just starter fluid. Even when it had a fresh valve job done. I don't know how much you expect to throw in there, but that doesn't sound safe running any engine on fluid made just to help it get going.
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:15 AM
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Another update: I charged the battery and there is fuel in the float bowls, but I'm pretty darn sure I'm still not getting any fuel to the engine itself. What could cause this? You can't tell me every single jet is clogged. I took apart, cleaned with carb cleaner, and sprayed them all with compressed air.

Thanks for all suggestions, guys! Keep them coming, please!
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Old 12-03-2015, 09:58 AM
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Dumb questions but it has to be asked. How long has the bike sat since it last ran? How old is the gas in the tank? If it is new gas and the bike has sat long, was the tank cleaned out prior to the new gas being added to the tank?

When cleaning the carbs by chance did you put anything new on them, for instance a new jet kit? Did you inspect the floats to see if there were any cracks in them?
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Old 12-03-2015, 12:03 PM
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kill switch on handlebar?
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Old 12-03-2015, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Meier Link View Post
Dumb questions but it has to be asked. How long has the bike sat since it last ran? How old is the gas in the tank? If it is new gas and the bike has sat long, was the tank cleaned out prior to the new gas being added to the tank?

When cleaning the carbs by chance did you put anything new on them, for instance a new jet kit? Did you inspect the floats to see if there were any cracks in them?
It's been sitting about a week or two since I last rode it and screwed up the timing.

I bought the bike probably about 2 months ago, and just got it running for the first time about 3 weeks ago. I don't know how long the gas has been in there, but it's more than 2 months old. There's some rust in the tank, but I didn't think it would be a problem, so I haven't bothered to clean it out.

When cleaning the carbs, the only jets I took out were the main and pilot jets. Everything else I just sprayed through with carb cleaner, then compressed air. I didn't replace anything in the carbs. When putting it all back together, I ended up with a few o rings that I didn't know where they belonged. I inspected everything in there, nothing seemed to be faulty. Floats looked new.
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Old 12-03-2015, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ascothawk View Post
kill switch on handlebar?
Yup. I always check before trying to start any bike.
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Old 12-03-2015, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by William van Rosmalen View Post
...When putting it all back together, I ended up with a few o rings that I didn't know where they belonged...
Ruh-roh!

Those o-rings go someplace.. and for a purpose!
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Old 12-03-2015, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by William van Rosmalen View Post
The engine never ran on just starter fluid. Even when it had a fresh valve job done. I don't know how much you expect to throw in there, but that doesn't sound safe running any engine on fluid made just to help it get going.
You only need a little, it's a test. You're not trying to fill the cylinders and hydrolock it.
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Old 12-04-2015, 09:53 AM
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Would not having those o rings installed actually prevent gas from getting to the engine though?

I only use a quick squirt of start fluid every time. Squirt by squirt.
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Old 12-04-2015, 11:16 AM
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Can you post a picture of those O Rings?
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Old 12-05-2015, 04:12 PM
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Won't Start :(-image.jpeg

Can you see that pic?

I think the black ring on the right was from a valve stem seal I replaced. So, you can see how small those washers are. And I guess they were all washers, not o rings.

Two of them are concave/convex shaped and have a slit cut out of them. The rest are all normal and flat.

Last edited by William van Rosmalen; 12-05-2015 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 12-05-2015, 08:53 PM
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Are they the O Rings and washers from the needle in your slides?

If it has standard needles these washers may well have been used to raise the needle.

If your needles have grooves in them that take a circlip then they are not standard and I have no idea.

All,this is from memory as it is 3 years since I Dyno jetted my bike.

I suggest that you download a manual or visit a site with exploded pics of your carbs.

Good luck
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Old 12-05-2015, 10:29 PM
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Those were probably under the needles, since that's the only place those would really come from. But that wouldn't prevent it from starting.
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Old 12-06-2015, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
Those were probably under the needles, since that's the only place those would really come from. But that wouldn't prevent it from starting.
Might not be what's causing the bike to fire but it will cause the bike to run like crap. To save him a minute though here is a link to the diagram that Kenmoore referenced above.

Honda Vtr1000f Super Hawk 1998 Usa Carburetor (component Parts) - schematic partsfiche

William you need to go back through the carbs and rrclean / reset them up properly and resync them. Might try cleaning the tank before trying to fire the bike back uo too. Bad gas will clog these carbs quick, thanks ethonol. You need to get the rust out of the tank anyways. Make sure you shim all the needles properly for what ever jet kit you have. The carb set up thread on here is a useful tool.

I've seen it in the past where gas can go bad after just setting a few weeks in a contaminated tank. It clogged the carbs even though we had just cleaned them and had to go through days of head aches before we realized what out mistake was, given that wasn't on a VTR.
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Old 12-06-2015, 11:12 AM
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I believe one or two of those are just from the throttle link piece on the opposite side of the carb from the throttle cables.
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