Removing the Sub Gear (a.k.a. Anti Rattle Gear)
09-21-2014, 10:30 AM
#1
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Removing the Sub Gear (a.k.a. Anti Rattle Gear)
Since I have some time before my engine cover gets installed again, I was thinking about removing the Sub Gear, a.k.a. anti rattle gear. I know others have removed it. I had asked Kenmoore how he removed his in a PM, but having this information out in the open would be great. I hope he chimes in.
In case you are wondering what the heck I'm talking about, here's a picture for ya from the FSM (Factory Service Manual).
Here's what the Sub Gear does:
(this is a quote taken from Tony.mon on the vtr1000.org site. I hope you don't mind!)
This is my engine in the picture below. It looks like all you have to do is:
-Remove Primary Drive Gear bolt & washer
-Remove Ignition Pulse Generator Rotor
-Remove Sub Gear (a.k.a. Anti Rattle Gear), Sub Gear Friction Spring and also the three Damper Springs
Once that is all off:
-Reinstall Ignition Pulse Generator Rotor
-Reinstall Primary Drive Gear Bolt & washer and torque to 65 ft.lbs.
Do I need to wedge anything between the primary drive and driven gears, like the FSM says too? Or, since the Sub Gear is being removed, you don't need to do this, correct?
In case you are wondering what the heck I'm talking about, here's a picture for ya from the FSM (Factory Service Manual).
Here's what the Sub Gear does:
(this is a quote taken from Tony.mon on the vtr1000.org site. I hope you don't mind!)
It's designed to take up the slack in the straight-cut primary gears.
The two smaller primary gears intermesh, held together by the three springs, and it sort of clenches the larger gear's teeth between the two smaller ones and prevents it rattling. But it only rattles at very specific revs, and it's hard to hear anyway, if you have cans on.
But the fact that the gears tension against each other means that there is an extra friction produced, and removing the gear removes that small loss, hence a fractional BHP gain...
The two smaller primary gears intermesh, held together by the three springs, and it sort of clenches the larger gear's teeth between the two smaller ones and prevents it rattling. But it only rattles at very specific revs, and it's hard to hear anyway, if you have cans on.
But the fact that the gears tension against each other means that there is an extra friction produced, and removing the gear removes that small loss, hence a fractional BHP gain...
-Remove Primary Drive Gear bolt & washer
-Remove Ignition Pulse Generator Rotor
-Remove Sub Gear (a.k.a. Anti Rattle Gear), Sub Gear Friction Spring and also the three Damper Springs
Once that is all off:
-Reinstall Ignition Pulse Generator Rotor
-Reinstall Primary Drive Gear Bolt & washer and torque to 65 ft.lbs.
Do I need to wedge anything between the primary drive and driven gears, like the FSM says too? Or, since the Sub Gear is being removed, you don't need to do this, correct?
Last edited by CruxGNZ; 09-21-2014 at 10:31 AM. Reason: adding pics yo!
09-21-2014, 04:15 PM
#4
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Put the bolt back in and torqued it down to 65 ft.lbs.
Finished
That's it folks. Simple as that!
While I was in there, I installed the Factory Pro +4 Ignition Advancer.
Last edited by CruxGNZ; 09-21-2014 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Visuals are bestest
09-22-2014, 08:34 AM
#6
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Can anyone testify to a power gain ? I understand the rolling mass theory and the fact it may reduce weight and friction, but, is it realy worth it ?
Crux, if you have an accurate balance, perhaps you can weigh the parts removed and see where you stand with this mod...:O)
Crux, if you have an accurate balance, perhaps you can weigh the parts removed and see where you stand with this mod...:O)
09-22-2014, 11:35 AM
#7
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Can anyone testify to a power gain ? I understand the rolling mass theory and the fact it may reduce weight and friction, but, is it realy worth it ?
Crux, if you have an accurate balance, perhaps you can weigh the parts removed and see where you stand with this mod...:O)
Crux, if you have an accurate balance, perhaps you can weigh the parts removed and see where you stand with this mod...:O)
09-22-2014, 12:31 PM
#8
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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Is there a gain to be had? Sure, although very minimal. Less parts and less rotating mass are a plus in my book any day.
I don't have a scale that can weigh things as small as the Sub Gear and parts. But I have been wanting to get one for some time now. This might be the reason I need
11-06-2014, 07:03 PM
#9
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I finally got around to weighing the parts that were removed.
Sub Gear, friction spring, and the three damper springs =5.89 oz. (Sorry about the previous weight. I screwed up. This is now the correct weight!)
EDIT: In ~450 miles, I honestly can't hear a difference. I feel a slight difference, but I'm chalking that up to installing the Factory Pro +4 Ignition Advancer, which was done at the same time as removing the Sub Gear.
Sub Gear, friction spring, and the three damper springs =5.89 oz. (Sorry about the previous weight. I screwed up. This is now the correct weight!)
EDIT: In ~450 miles, I honestly can't hear a difference. I feel a slight difference, but I'm chalking that up to installing the Factory Pro +4 Ignition Advancer, which was done at the same time as removing the Sub Gear.
Last edited by CruxGNZ; 11-07-2014 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Everyone messes up once in a while toots.
11-07-2014, 12:06 AM
#11
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Hey guys,
Been occupied and sorry to chime in late!
When I removed the anti rattle gear I also fitted a lightened fly wheel along with other mods.
One thing I noticed was that the engine became noisier at idle.
I am now wondering if NZ has solved the conundrum of the rattle after fitting the 4degree advancer and removing the anti rattle gear.
Me thinks I might measure the thickness of the anti rattle gear and the original ignition rotor, then the 4 degree rotor and source a washer that returns the 4 degree rotor to the original position.
Who knows? May work!
Been occupied and sorry to chime in late!
When I removed the anti rattle gear I also fitted a lightened fly wheel along with other mods.
One thing I noticed was that the engine became noisier at idle.
I am now wondering if NZ has solved the conundrum of the rattle after fitting the 4degree advancer and removing the anti rattle gear.
Me thinks I might measure the thickness of the anti rattle gear and the original ignition rotor, then the 4 degree rotor and source a washer that returns the 4 degree rotor to the original position.
Who knows? May work!
11-07-2014, 01:03 PM
#12
Rex Kramer-Thrill Seeker
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I have a similar setup as you. Lightened flywheel, removed Sub Gear, +4 degree ignition advancer. I honestly can't hear a difference. But, others like yourself, have claimed that thier engine makes a different noise during idle after installing the ignition advancer. Maybe this isn't true for all VTR's?
I understand what you are saying about spacing the rotor back out to where it was. I can't think of any reason why that would work. BUT, you never know
I understand what you are saying about spacing the rotor back out to where it was. I can't think of any reason why that would work. BUT, you never know
11-08-2014, 01:07 AM
#14
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Mikstr,
I would call your bike anything but stock mate!
I did so much to mine all at once that it's hard to know why it rattles more than before.
By the crickey it sure goes better.
I would call your bike anything but stock mate!
I did so much to mine all at once that it's hard to know why it rattles more than before.
By the crickey it sure goes better.
12-28-2014, 06:17 PM
#15
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 6
It's probably not a good idea to remove a device Honda specifically engineered to reduce crankshaft vibration. Especially on a v-twin when the desired effect is to simply lighten the crank. That should be done by lightening the flywheel.
Probably best to accept that you can't make an RC-51 out of a VTR.
Probably best to accept that you can't make an RC-51 out of a VTR.
12-28-2014, 09:04 PM
#16
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This really seems like bordom derived mod. It just seems like an odd thing to even want to do. Terrible benefit to drawback ratio it seems.
It sounds like it would affect longevity, although if Jamie did it so long ago thats iffy. But to remove something engineered into the motor just to gain vibration and rattle just doesnt figure to me.
You guys should at least warn the buyer if you sell the bike.
It sounds like it would affect longevity, although if Jamie did it so long ago thats iffy. But to remove something engineered into the motor just to gain vibration and rattle just doesnt figure to me.
You guys should at least warn the buyer if you sell the bike.
01-07-2015, 10:04 AM
#17
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This mod is definitely a because I can type thing.
I first got onto it via tonymon on another site.
Like many I did it because I was in there and could.
The other day I had the opportunity to ride a fairly standard bike that was the same year model with a set of Yoshis on it and nothing else.
What a revelation, doughy is the only way that I could describe it.
Definitely highlighted how the mods that I have done work.
I doubt if I would feel any difference if I put the anti rattle gears back in but I did notice that my bike has a vibration at approx 4250 revs compared to the standard bike.
That is and area that I accelerate quickly through so not a drama to me.
I'm almost certain that it is caused by the removal of the anti rattle gear as I have replaced chain, sprockets Cush rubbers etc chasing this vibration and the standard bike did not have it.
I put the vibration down to the mods I have and think of it as character.
Compared to some of my earlier bikes I can live with it for the definite power advantage I have over the stock bike.
We did a side by side roll on in 3rd gear and it was a funny feeling to be flogged by my own bike.
It made me feel good to experience first hand how my bike used to be and served to validate all the time and effort that I have put into it.
Could I live with a standard bike, I could as it was smoother, but it lacked character and was almost asthmatic in it's performance and a bit scarey in the handling department.
Different strokes for different folks I guess!
I first got onto it via tonymon on another site.
Like many I did it because I was in there and could.
The other day I had the opportunity to ride a fairly standard bike that was the same year model with a set of Yoshis on it and nothing else.
What a revelation, doughy is the only way that I could describe it.
Definitely highlighted how the mods that I have done work.
I doubt if I would feel any difference if I put the anti rattle gears back in but I did notice that my bike has a vibration at approx 4250 revs compared to the standard bike.
That is and area that I accelerate quickly through so not a drama to me.
I'm almost certain that it is caused by the removal of the anti rattle gear as I have replaced chain, sprockets Cush rubbers etc chasing this vibration and the standard bike did not have it.
I put the vibration down to the mods I have and think of it as character.
Compared to some of my earlier bikes I can live with it for the definite power advantage I have over the stock bike.
We did a side by side roll on in 3rd gear and it was a funny feeling to be flogged by my own bike.
It made me feel good to experience first hand how my bike used to be and served to validate all the time and effort that I have put into it.
Could I live with a standard bike, I could as it was smoother, but it lacked character and was almost asthmatic in it's performance and a bit scarey in the handling department.
Different strokes for different folks I guess!
01-08-2015, 01:36 AM
#19
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Ha, Ha James,
When I was younger character was a word I used to describe a few of my female friends.
Looks didn't seem to be a priority then!
Funny how things change, although character in bikes like people help to overcome some obvious shortcomings!
When I was younger character was a word I used to describe a few of my female friends.
Looks didn't seem to be a priority then!
Funny how things change, although character in bikes like people help to overcome some obvious shortcomings!
01-12-2016, 10:09 AM
#22
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I removed mine back in 2000 and it sounds the same and not had a single problem since. My guess is there was something else that caused the noise.
01-13-2016, 07:19 AM
#23
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Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: SOUTH FLORIDA
Posts: 101
In my case, it was the springs rattling as well as the clutch. This stopped once they were back under tension.
I suppose if the whole aparatus was missing it would just be the clutch that rattles.
I suppose if the whole aparatus was missing it would just be the clutch that rattles.
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