Counteeshaft Seal
04-02-2009, 02:40 PM
#2
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Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Joe,
If I recall correctly, there is a retaining rib on the OD of the countershaft seal that matches a groove in the bore.
I don't think you can slide it in to an assembled case. If you do, you'll probably need to remove the retaining rib frist, then hope it doesn't come out.
If there's no rib, some grease on the OD of the seal an ID of the bore are your friend. Just a thin film will do. If you use RTV, use very little, and make everything squeaky clean beforehand. Excess RTV will end up in your oil inlet strainer.
If I recall correctly, there is a retaining rib on the OD of the countershaft seal that matches a groove in the bore.
I don't think you can slide it in to an assembled case. If you do, you'll probably need to remove the retaining rib frist, then hope it doesn't come out.
If there's no rib, some grease on the OD of the seal an ID of the bore are your friend. Just a thin film will do. If you use RTV, use very little, and make everything squeaky clean beforehand. Excess RTV will end up in your oil inlet strainer.
Last edited by RCVTR; 04-02-2009 at 02:44 PM.
04-03-2009, 09:53 AM
#5
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It is technically possible to drop the lower case with the engine in the frame.
The frame actually makes a nice disassembly/assembly fixture. I like to do most of the work with the engine in the frame, for that reason. But to split the case, you are taking the rear swingarm off and hanging the bike. It's not going to save a lot.
The worst part about splitting the case would be the lack of visibility of the upper case mating surface, and the difficulty in keeping oil off, where you are trying to seal with Hondabond. I think you can place the transmission on the lower case first, then lift it in to place. It will come out when you drop the lower case, so be careful.
There are 2 oil supply orifices for the trasmission that insert into the top case, near the main bearings, on the split line. Make sure you keep track of them and put them back.
It's a project. Don't be in a hurry.
The frame actually makes a nice disassembly/assembly fixture. I like to do most of the work with the engine in the frame, for that reason. But to split the case, you are taking the rear swingarm off and hanging the bike. It's not going to save a lot.
The worst part about splitting the case would be the lack of visibility of the upper case mating surface, and the difficulty in keeping oil off, where you are trying to seal with Hondabond. I think you can place the transmission on the lower case first, then lift it in to place. It will come out when you drop the lower case, so be careful.
There are 2 oil supply orifices for the trasmission that insert into the top case, near the main bearings, on the split line. Make sure you keep track of them and put them back.
It's a project. Don't be in a hurry.
04-03-2009, 10:23 AM
#7
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It doesn't run. You have to fix it, right?
The more I think about it, the more I think that its the way to go. Hang the back of the bike from two straps, one pulling up and left, the other pulling up and right.
You don't need to remove any of the cooling system.
But I say this assuming you have a fair amount of mechanical experience and aptitude. It's definitely not for "everyone".
I'm happy to help with any questions, or problems that arise.
The more I think about it, the more I think that its the way to go. Hang the back of the bike from two straps, one pulling up and left, the other pulling up and right.
You don't need to remove any of the cooling system.
But I say this assuming you have a fair amount of mechanical experience and aptitude. It's definitely not for "everyone".
I'm happy to help with any questions, or problems that arise.
04-03-2009, 10:36 AM
#8
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Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 31
I'm gonna have to do it, it just sucks, I'm not sure the beams in his garage are up to it to be honest, I was looking at them whilst I was there, looked only just strong enough (collectively) to hold the roof!.
I won't be able to do it for a month or so now as I'm going back home tomorrow. Thanks again for all your help, I'm sure I will be back in contact with you some time soon.
Joe
P.s. I have a fairly good level of mechanical knowledge but I haven't split cases before, I'm I'll be able to do it though with a manual and superhawkforum.
I won't be able to do it for a month or so now as I'm going back home tomorrow. Thanks again for all your help, I'm sure I will be back in contact with you some time soon.
Joe
P.s. I have a fairly good level of mechanical knowledge but I haven't split cases before, I'm I'll be able to do it though with a manual and superhawkforum.
04-03-2009, 11:08 AM
#10
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SuperSport
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 524
Nobody's asked, but why do you have to replace the seal ?
If it appears to be leaking, are you sure it's not chainlube dripping down ?
My sidestand is covered with it between washes and it does look like a C/S seal leak.
Kai Ju
If it appears to be leaking, are you sure it's not chainlube dripping down ?
My sidestand is covered with it between washes and it does look like a C/S seal leak.
Kai Ju
04-03-2009, 11:22 AM
#11
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 562
I replaced the seal on mine a few years ago (mistakenly identifying it as the culprit for significant oil loss) and I was in the same position, wanting to replace the seal but not wanting to crack the cases. I ground down the retaining lip on the seal and it went in with only a little encouragement. I was definitely concerned about crankcase pressure (or .... ) pushing it out, but it hasn't budged after 15K. It's a bitch getting the original seal out, though. (Yeah, I feel like a hack doing it the hack way, but I guess that's what I am sometimes. 
)
)
04-03-2009, 11:50 AM
#12
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Squid
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I was thinking of doing what chickenstrip metioned, I'll have a think.
Wicky - I was thinking about doing something like that as it goes, may we do that!
Kai Ju - I bought the bike like it, well I didn't realise that the seal needed putting in there, it was in a few bits the bike when I bought it - I only paid £700 for it so not much any way.
Thanks for all the help guys, I'll see how it goes, I've got about a month to think it over any who.
All the best, Joe
Wicky - I was thinking about doing something like that as it goes, may we do that!
Kai Ju - I bought the bike like it, well I didn't realise that the seal needed putting in there, it was in a few bits the bike when I bought it - I only paid £700 for it so not much any way.
Thanks for all the help guys, I'll see how it goes, I've got about a month to think it over any who.
All the best, Joe
04-03-2009, 04:41 PM
#13
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SuperSport
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 524
If you do decide not to split the cases here are some hints that should make the job easier.
Remove the old seal carefully so you don't damage either seal surface.
Take a deburring tool and chamfer the edge of the case, this will make getting the new seal in slightly easier.
Remove most of the seal lip but leave a lip that is tapered up towards the outside.
In other words, as you push the seal in it will act like a barb to keep the seal from coming out once you get it in.
Find yourself, or make, a beefy flatwasher that is slightly bigger than the seal OD with a hole slightly bigger that the countershaft OD.
Take another washer that has the same OD but has an ID that will fit the countershaft sprocket bolt diameter.
Take PVC pipe that will split the two diameters and cut it about the same length as the exposed countershaft.
The washers and the PVC pipe will allow you to pull the seal in with the sprocket bolt.
The chamfered edge will hopefully prevent shaving of the seal rubber and the tapered lip will keep it in place once you get it in.
Use Honda Bond, sparingly applied, to lube the seal during installation and to seal it once it's in.
I've added a drawing that hopefully makes the above a little clearer.
Kai Ju
Remove the old seal carefully so you don't damage either seal surface.
Take a deburring tool and chamfer the edge of the case, this will make getting the new seal in slightly easier.
Remove most of the seal lip but leave a lip that is tapered up towards the outside.
In other words, as you push the seal in it will act like a barb to keep the seal from coming out once you get it in.
Find yourself, or make, a beefy flatwasher that is slightly bigger than the seal OD with a hole slightly bigger that the countershaft OD.
Take another washer that has the same OD but has an ID that will fit the countershaft sprocket bolt diameter.
Take PVC pipe that will split the two diameters and cut it about the same length as the exposed countershaft.
The washers and the PVC pipe will allow you to pull the seal in with the sprocket bolt.
The chamfered edge will hopefully prevent shaving of the seal rubber and the tapered lip will keep it in place once you get it in.
Use Honda Bond, sparingly applied, to lube the seal during installation and to seal it once it's in.
I've added a drawing that hopefully makes the above a little clearer.
Kai Ju
04-04-2009, 05:34 AM
#14
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SuperSport
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 562
These are all good tips and it sounds like you have some experience here. What do you recommend for getting the seal out without damaging the cases?
If you do decide not to split the cases here are some hints that should make the job easier.
Remove the old seal carefully so you don't damage either seal surface.
Take a deburring tool and chamfer the edge of the case, this will make getting the new seal in slightly easier.
Remove most of the seal lip but leave a lip that is tapered up towards the outside.
In other words, as you push the seal in it will act like a barb to keep the seal from coming out once you get it in.
Find yourself, or make, a beefy flatwasher that is slightly bigger than the seal OD with a hole slightly bigger that the countershaft OD.
Take another washer that has the same OD but has an ID that will fit the countershaft sprocket bolt diameter.
Take PVC pipe that will split the two diameters and cut it about the same length as the exposed countershaft.
The washers and the PVC pipe will allow you to pull the seal in with the sprocket bolt.
The chamfered edge will hopefully prevent shaving of the seal rubber and the tapered lip will keep it in place once you get it in.
Use Honda Bond, sparingly applied, to lube the seal during installation and to seal it once it's in.
I've added a drawing that hopefully makes the above a little clearer.
Kai Ju
Remove the old seal carefully so you don't damage either seal surface.
Take a deburring tool and chamfer the edge of the case, this will make getting the new seal in slightly easier.
Remove most of the seal lip but leave a lip that is tapered up towards the outside.
In other words, as you push the seal in it will act like a barb to keep the seal from coming out once you get it in.
Find yourself, or make, a beefy flatwasher that is slightly bigger than the seal OD with a hole slightly bigger that the countershaft OD.
Take another washer that has the same OD but has an ID that will fit the countershaft sprocket bolt diameter.
Take PVC pipe that will split the two diameters and cut it about the same length as the exposed countershaft.
The washers and the PVC pipe will allow you to pull the seal in with the sprocket bolt.
The chamfered edge will hopefully prevent shaving of the seal rubber and the tapered lip will keep it in place once you get it in.
Use Honda Bond, sparingly applied, to lube the seal during installation and to seal it once it's in.
I've added a drawing that hopefully makes the above a little clearer.
Kai Ju
04-04-2009, 06:36 AM
#15
Member
Squid
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: charleston,sc
Posts: 54
i haven`t tried this on a counter shaft seal but it may work.i have gotten a few seals out by making a small hole in the face of the seal.then screw a small sheet metal screw in the hole.grab the screw with some vise and pull.you have to be carefull and not let the screw touch the shaft or the outter bore of the hole.
04-04-2009, 07:21 AM
#16
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Location: South Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
Posts: 1,689
What Kai-Ju said.
I couldn't remember how big th flange was and whether it is part of the plastic coating or the metal part of the seal.
Hondabond is definitely the ticket - use sparingly.
A screw and slide hammer may be required to pull the old one out.
I couldn't remember how big th flange was and whether it is part of the plastic coating or the metal part of the seal.
Hondabond is definitely the ticket - use sparingly.
A screw and slide hammer may be required to pull the old one out.
05-13-2009, 11:43 AM
#17
Member
Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 31
Hey guys, I'm back in Norwich and will be doing this bike in around 2 weeks or so. I currently in my exam period so musing over this issue seems like a good way to procrastinate away from revision.
Where I am at at the moment, I did try shamfering the edge of the case (won't affect retaining the seal at all) but made a massive boo boo. I did cut out a piece of cardboard and insert on the countershaft seal to prevent any filings getting in there. Wel.... it didn't work quite as well as it should (I still don't know how mind, it was a decent fit). I don't think there's a lot in there but I can feel it slightly when turning the countershaft which says to me BAD!!! I did wonder if it was possible to just put the seal in as mentioned on here, fill up with oil, run it for a little bit (not running or in gear) and then drain, repeat a few times? The filings would be very minute indeed and obviously aluminium (sorry, aluminum, haha) so not quite as abrassive as steel but I'm not sure, looks like the case will have to be split and the countershaft cleaned of any filings. Ugh, it goes from bad to worse!
Thanks for the help guys.
Joe
Where I am at at the moment, I did try shamfering the edge of the case (won't affect retaining the seal at all) but made a massive boo boo. I did cut out a piece of cardboard and insert on the countershaft seal to prevent any filings getting in there. Wel.... it didn't work quite as well as it should (I still don't know how mind, it was a decent fit). I don't think there's a lot in there but I can feel it slightly when turning the countershaft which says to me BAD!!! I did wonder if it was possible to just put the seal in as mentioned on here, fill up with oil, run it for a little bit (not running or in gear) and then drain, repeat a few times? The filings would be very minute indeed and obviously aluminium (sorry, aluminum, haha) so not quite as abrassive as steel but I'm not sure, looks like the case will have to be split and the countershaft cleaned of any filings. Ugh, it goes from bad to worse!
Thanks for the help guys.
Joe
05-13-2009, 12:17 PM
#19
guru of things sparky
SuperSport
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Grand Prairie , Texas
Posts: 599
i haven`t tried this on a counter shaft seal but it may work.i have gotten a few seals out by making a small hole in the face of the seal.then screw a small sheet metal screw in the hole.grab the screw with some vise and pull.you have to be carefull and not let the screw touch the shaft or the outter bore of the hole.
exactly. Better yet do two holes(12 oclock - 6 oclock)insert a hooked pick into each hole and in one motion pull the seal out. Rinse any rubber debris out.
05-13-2009, 12:25 PM
#20
guru of things sparky
SuperSport
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Grand Prairie , Texas
Posts: 599
Hey guys, I'm back in Norwich and will be doing this bike in around 2 weeks or so. I currently in my exam period so musing over this issue seems like a good way to procrastinate away from revision.
Where I am at at the moment, I did try shamfering the edge of the case (won't affect retaining the seal at all) but made a massive boo boo. I did cut out a piece of cardboard and insert on the countershaft seal to prevent any filings getting in there. Wel.... it didn't work quite as well as it should (I still don't know how mind, it was a decent fit). I don't think there's a lot in there but I can feel it slightly when turning the countershaft which says to me BAD!!! I did wonder if it was possible to just put the seal in as mentioned on here, fill up with oil, run it for a little bit (not running or in gear) and then drain, repeat a few times? The filings would be very minute indeed and obviously aluminium (sorry, aluminum, haha) so not quite as abrassive as steel but I'm not sure, looks like the case will have to be split and the countershaft cleaned of any filings. Ugh, it goes from bad to worse!
Thanks for the help guys.
Joe
Where I am at at the moment, I did try shamfering the edge of the case (won't affect retaining the seal at all) but made a massive boo boo. I did cut out a piece of cardboard and insert on the countershaft seal to prevent any filings getting in there. Wel.... it didn't work quite as well as it should (I still don't know how mind, it was a decent fit). I don't think there's a lot in there but I can feel it slightly when turning the countershaft which says to me BAD!!! I did wonder if it was possible to just put the seal in as mentioned on here, fill up with oil, run it for a little bit (not running or in gear) and then drain, repeat a few times? The filings would be very minute indeed and obviously aluminium (sorry, aluminum, haha) so not quite as abrassive as steel but I'm not sure, looks like the case will have to be split and the countershaft cleaned of any filings. Ugh, it goes from bad to worse!
Thanks for the help guys.
Joe
seriously dood, a few shavings are a risk but are unlikely to damage anything beyond the countershaft bearing, which is a large bearing with good survivability. Your oil filter will catch anything sucked up into the flow, and your oil pump gear will receive virtually no damage from aluminum particles (unless it has to digest a pile of shavings , lol )
Why dont you try flushing the bearing area and letting stuff run out the open oil drain.
Put your new seal in, and forget about it, serious.
I cant see the level of contamination being that much.
05-13-2009, 12:41 PM
#21
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Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 31
Thanks, this is what I was hoping to hear, I really don't think it's much as it aluminium so its not like it's steel and the particles would be minute, I think I'm gonna stick the seal in the way mentioned on here and then do a few oil changes. What the hey, it was a cheap cheap bike, I could buy another motor and it would still be cheap so...
Thanks, guys.
Joe
Thanks, guys.
Joe
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