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APE Manual CCT install?

Old 08-08-2006, 07:17 PM
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APE Manual CCT install?

Alright, I just got them in the mail with the new gaskets and I am just wondering where to start :-)

Alright alright, Well when I uninstall that original CCT's do i need a special tool? or will a screwdriver work?

And for installing the new APE's what how do I know when I have enough tension? I plan on removing the rear valve cover if not the front one too... Depends on how hard the front one is to remove.

Thanks guys!
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Old 08-08-2006, 07:31 PM
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Old 08-08-2006, 08:15 PM
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Sweet! So basically its my preference on the whole tension issue with the AEMs then. But I will make sure the valves and pistons are on TDC before replacing the CCT's.

Some of the you guys say fingertight on the bolts and some and an additional 1/4 turn while finger tight (but some of our fingers are stronger than others :-) ) and some say 1/4" deflection in the chain between the cams But how would i do this on the front cylinder? Its allready a cluster F--- in there lol...and yet some adjust with sound while the engine is running.



Whats the best and true way to adjust theses suckers? :-) lol.. Is it all fair game?
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Old 08-09-2006, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 99Hawkboy
Whats the best and true way to adjust theses suckers? :-) lol.. Is it all fair game?
Not sure what the 'best' way is but you can read my most here to see what I choose to do:
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...?t=1311&page=2
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:22 AM
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I just installed a set a few weeks ago and went through all the same questions you are having....

What I learned...

1.. if you aren't putting the stock CCT's back in, you don't need any tools to remove them other than for the mounting bolts.(Just unbolt them WITH the cams at TDC to aviod the chain jumping)

2.. If your **** about things, take the time to remove the valve covers front and back, this way you can really see what's going on with the chain tension and valve position.

3.. I measured the deflection in the cam chain to be approx 1/4" with the stock CCT's still in (Valve covers and chain guide off). I then replaced them with the APE's and tightened them down till I measured 1/4" deflection in the chain as well. Remarkably, this was about as tight as I could reasonably tighten them with my fingers!!!!

4.. IMPORTANT... Once I bolted everything back up, and turned the engine over WITH THE RUN SWITCH OFF (Just wanted to here the motor turn without firing to insure I didn't have any "mishaps") I noticed the motor sounded a bit sluggish, and wasn't turning as fast as usual. I then backed off each CCT 1/4 turn and tried again.... then motor sounded great.

I've read 1/4" - 3/8" defelection measured on the chain for APE's... I'd go with 3/8" as the 1/4" seemed too tight at first... but each bike might be different.

This are the steps I took, take them with a grain of salt. Good Luck.

J.
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Old 08-09-2006, 04:41 PM
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Well Im starting the project tonight.. Wish me luck and ill let you know how it goes. Im going to change out my idle jet as well to a 48 instead of a 50. 50 is a little to high for my settings.

Thanks
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Old 08-09-2006, 05:11 PM
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Good call on the 48 jets. I don't think any bike with stock headers runs correctly with the 50s.

If you do end up taking off the valve covers, I highly suggest just taking a nylon tie wrap and locking the cam chain and sprockets together. This ensures they won't slip at all. Just don't forget to take them off when you're done!

Good luck and tighten them finger tight. No need to go any tighter. As long as there's no slapping or ticking you'll be fine.
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:07 PM
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This is great...I am about to order 2 sets. I have two chicken little to do...BTW when you set TDC in the crank peephole, does that apply to both cylinder?...

So if I am correct, all we need to do is set TDC, remove the OEM CCTs and reinstall new ones along with the gasket, set the tension and feel a whole lot better?
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:14 PM
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"BTW when you set TDC in the crank peephole, does that apply to both cylinder?..."

There is a marking for TDC for the rear and a TDC mark for the front cylinder.... two different marks and locations on the crank.
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowHAWK
"BTW when you set TDC in the crank peephole, does that apply to both cylinder?..."

There is a marking for TDC for the rear and a TDC mark for the front cylinder.... two different marks and locations on the crank.
A big thank you, I assume FT means front an RT means rear?
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:22 PM
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Alrighty quick question... Am i supposed to measure the chain slack between the cam sprockets? Because I have a piece of metal covering the chain. If I remove this will it mess up the torque settings on the cam covers?

Thanks
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Old 08-09-2006, 06:39 PM
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Ok, Umm when I rotate the engine by hand I can hear compression or the hissing sound coming from my crankcase... This probably isnt good right? I know that that would have to be my piston rings... Son of... Has anyone else noticed this when they were doing theres?
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 99Hawkboy
Ok, Umm when I rotate the engine by hand I can hear compression or the hissing sound coming from my crankcase... This probably isnt good right? I know that that would have to be my piston rings... Son of... Has anyone else noticed this when they were doing theres?
It's normal. Take out the sparkplugs. If you do that and you use the tool to retract the stock CCTs you won't have to worry about all this hooey about timing. It won't change.
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:24 PM
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Ok, sorry about all the posts... Hopefully somebody is reading theses :-)

I adjusted the rear APE with the valve cover off and so far finger tight, I cant budge the chain between the cam sprockets. Is this good, I backed off a 1/4 turn and tightened the lock nut down. It feels like the same amount of tension on the chain as the stock CCT

Thanks
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Old 08-09-2006, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jschmidt
It's normal. Take out the sparkplugs. If you do that and you use the tool to retract the stock CCTs you won't have to worry about all this hooey about timing. It won't change.
Ok cool... Just curious and all...

For the rear I didnt retract the stock CCT... But it was weird. I removed the holding bolts for the stock CCT and it didnt come off. And when I pulled it off it came out quite smooth... Is this normal?

Also I made sure the timing didnt change by wrapping some wire around the chain and sprocket and placing some whiteout on the chain and sprocket. Im **** i know... Oh and im taking pictures for future reference
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Old 08-10-2006, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jschmidt
It's normal. Take out the sparkplugs. If you do that and you use the tool to retract the stock CCTs you won't have to worry about all this hooey about timing. It won't change.
Jim, hate to shoot you down on this one, but that's not true. The spring pressure of the lifters on the cam(s) is what causes the chain/sprocket to skip teeth. Compression normally bleeds off within a few seconds of the crankshaft coming to a stop.
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Old 08-10-2006, 04:33 PM
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Alright... Im finishing up the install tonight. Well actually I have them both installed but just want to make sure that I dont have them too tight. Is it normal for the chain not to move any if I attempt to wiggle the chain up and down between the intake and exhaust cam sprockets? Because this is finger tight with the APEs..

Thanks again!
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Old 08-10-2006, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkrider
Jim, hate to shoot you down on this one, but that's not true. The spring pressure of the lifters on the cam(s) is what causes the chain/sprocket to skip teeth. Compression normally bleeds off within a few seconds of the crankshaft coming to a stop.
We can debate it, but not likely. The valve stems press directly against the cam. They won't push it in either direction. At any given time, two of them will not be touching the cam and two of them will be pressing firmly against it.

What happens, IMHO, is that the person doing the install leaves the sparkplugs in and turns the crank to line up for the second cylinder and then it pushes over on the ignition stroke. The cylinder pressure pushes the crank because the rod (unlike the valve) is pressing the crank on a radius of its rotation. The loose chain then spins on the cam, which stays still.

Anyway, you can wire the cam gears (as mentioned above) if it makes you nervous. I've never thought of using a cable tie for this but it sounds clever.
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Old 08-10-2006, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 99Hawkboy
Alright... Im finishing up the install tonight. Well actually I have them both installed but just want to make sure that I dont have them too tight. Is it normal for the chain not to move any if I attempt to wiggle the chain up and down between the intake and exhaust cam sprockets? Because this is finger tight with the APEs..

Thanks again!
Yes, In that very short distance between both sprockets you wouldn't expect there to be much play at all.

I set my tension by making them finger tight - then backing off one full turn. This very closely matched the 5 lb plunger pressure on the stock ccts.

Another good method is to set them to finger tight, back off a known amount (say 1 turn just for example) and tighten down the locknut. Then run the engine and loosen one locknut, back-off on the adjusting bolt until you can just hear the chain noise, then tweek the bolt tighter to quiet the noise. This will allow you to set the minimum plunger pressure needed to keep a quiet chain, which should also give you minimum wear. Good idea to use something like a mechanics stethoscope to listen as you tweek the adjusting bolt.


edit:
Oh yea, don't forget that after you button up the engine you won't be able to tell if it's at TDC so this rule of thumb of 'finger tight' or 'finger tight minus one turn' can't be used since that only applies to a cam chain with the cyl at TDC ( no valve spring pressure on the cam chain). You'd either have to pop the rear valve cover to confirm cam position + crank position to reset it OR just use the technique above by running the engine and setting the adjusting bolt for minimum pressure as it just quiets the chain noise.
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Old 08-10-2006, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by jschmidt
We can debate it, but not likely. The valve stems press directly against the cam. They won't push it in either direction. At any given time, two of them will not be touching the cam and two of them will be pressing firmly against it.

What happens, IMHO, is that the person doing the install leaves the sparkplugs in and turns the crank to line up for the second cylinder and then it pushes over on the ignition stroke. The cylinder pressure pushes the crank because the rod (unlike the valve) is pressing the crank on a radius of its rotation. The loose chain then spins on the cam, which stays still.

Anyway, you can wire the cam gears (as mentioned above) if it makes you nervous. I've never thought of using a cable tie for this but it sounds clever.
Yes, the buckets contact the cam, and if the cam is on it's upslide or downslide to or from the top of the lobe, then there is going to be a rotational force transmitted to the cam. Those valve springs are pretty stiff, and that can end up being a lot of force.

Ever tried to replace a timing belt on a 4 or 6 cylinder DOHC car motor? Same principle. If you don't find TDC and the cams are anywhere on the side of a lobe, as soon as you release the belt tension the cams will "center" themselves and you will lose cam timing.
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Old 08-10-2006, 07:18 PM
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Only replaced one timing belt on a car, but I've probably done 50 or 75 CCTs, both manual and automatic, on bikes. Never saw what you are describing.
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Old 08-10-2006, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by 99Hawk
Yes, In that very short distance between both sprockets you wouldn't expect there to be much play at all.

I set my tension by making them finger tight - then backing off one full turn. This very closely matched the 5 lb plunger pressure on the stock ccts.

Another good method is to set them to finger tight, back off a known amount (say 1 turn just for example) and tighten down the locknut. Then run the engine and loosen one locknut, back-off on the adjusting bolt until you can just hear the chain noise, then tweek the bolt tighter to quiet the noise. This will allow you to set the minimum plunger pressure needed to keep a quiet chain, which should also give you minimum wear. Good idea to use something like a mechanics stethoscope to listen as you tweek the adjusting bolt.


edit:
Oh yea, don't forget that after you button up the engine you won't be able to tell if it's at TDC so this rule of thumb of 'finger tight' or 'finger tight minus one turn' can't be used since that only applies to a cam chain with the cyl at TDC ( no valve spring pressure on the cam chain). You'd either have to pop the rear valve cover to confirm cam position + crank position to reset it OR just use the technique above by running the engine and setting the adjusting bolt for minimum pressure as it just quiets the chain noise.
Thanks your a lifesaver.. All of you guys are! Well Ive just about finished the install. Going to test it out tomorrow. Hopefully it will turn over with no problems. I adjusted the APE's finger tight again after making sure they were both on TDC and turned both out 1/2 turn. Ill start here and then adjust with the noise plan tomorrow.

Also new oil and filter and changed the jet settings so hopefully ill be set for a while.
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Old 08-11-2006, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jschmidt
Only replaced one timing belt on a car, but I've probably done 50 or 75 CCTs, both manual and automatic, on bikes. Never saw what you are describing.
Then you've been lucky and smart. Getting the motor to TDC should relax the buckets off the lobes (unless the motor has a wierd firing order). This is probably why you've never had a problem.

Either way I consider the tie wraps extra insurance that nothing goes awry, and better yet Hawkboy's success is partly due to our discussion here.
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Old 08-12-2006, 04:56 PM
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Cool

Originally Posted by Hawkrider
Then you've been lucky and smart. Getting the motor to TDC should relax the buckets off the lobes (unless the motor has a wierd firing order). This is probably why you've never had a problem.

Either way I consider the tie wraps extra insurance that nothing goes awry, and better yet Hawkboy's success is partly due to our discussion here.
My success is deffinately due to this discussion and all of your guys' input. I still have yet to start up the bad girl, Had to work this weekend but I am going to start her up on monday. Either way it turns over smoothly with the ignition off right now so I dont fear any problems. Will let you all know what happens monday. Thanks again all!
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Old 08-14-2006, 07:06 PM
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Alright... Bike runs and starts great! And the noise in my valvetrain is gone.
One question though... How exactly do you go about adjusting the front cylinder APE when the engine is hot? I actually tried turning the rear one out to adjust and I was at almost 2 turns and I didnt hear any louder noises (using a long scredriver) So I decided to do finger tight and back off 3/4 turn.
But the front one... Holy crap how is that possible to do while its running? The coolant tube is in the way and boy its hot!
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Old 08-15-2006, 06:52 AM
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If you have small enough hands, or maybe an understanding wife with small hands, you can adjust it while cold. T'aint easy, that's for sure!
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Old 08-15-2006, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 99Hawkboy
..............So I decided to do finger tight and back off 3/4 turn.
But the front one... Holy crap how is that possible to do while its running? The coolant tube is in the way and boy its hot!
Since you started with it backed off 1/2 and ended up at 3/4 (on the rear) you might want to just leave the front as is at 1/2.... or simply back it off to 3/4 (engine-off,cold) to match the rear.

Otherwise - yep, there ain't much room in there .... if you can back the locknut off on the front be sure you have the head of the bolt marked somehow so you have a reference for your starting point (1/2 off).
Take a box end wrench, put a small amount of tape inside the box-end to make the wrench fit very tightly on the adjusting bolt head so it won't slip off easily .... start the engine while you hold onto the wrench with your left hand.... You want to hold the bolt in place (so vibs don't change the position) to get it warmed up a bit. You can then slip the wrench off the bolthead and you should be able to just reach the bolt so two fingers can tweek it back and forth (keep an eye on the mark you put on the bolt so you know how far you've moved it). When you're happy with your setting shut it down and tighten the locknut ....

ps: listening to the chain noise (or any engine noise for that matter) is alot easier with a $15 Mechanic's Stethoscope (like this.)
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Old 08-17-2006, 08:37 AM
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Ok cool! Well i think i am just going to leave the settings the way they are now and see how it goes. So far so good. I havent heard any unusual noises and the valve train noise is gone now completely when I drive the bike which is awesome!

That and I really dont want to mess with the bolt on the front while the engine is running just because of the simple fact that I can barely get my wrenches in there when the engine is off let alone when its running. I think im going to pick up a set of ratcheting wrenches so it will make the job a little bit easier.

I am deffinately going to have to get one of those stethescopes for future use though.

At any rate I just wanted to thank you all for your help! And hopefully this will benefit another hawk owner in the future.

Thanks again
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Old 08-19-2006, 12:51 PM
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Phoned the tech at APE and he says measure 1/4" deflection between the sprockets.

The "old school" mechanics apparently did it by sound.
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Old 08-19-2006, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by NOrrTH
Phoned the tech at APE and he says measure 1/4" deflection between the sprockets.

The "old school" mechanics apparently did it by sound.
Old school,new ,,it works,, Finger tight, start,back off till it rattles, tighten till it stops rattling. Lock it down, go ride.
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