About to install APE CCT's
03-04-2005, 10:37 AM
#1
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About to install APE CCT's
Anyone have any tips on installing these?
How often to you have to adjust them once installed?
When you torque them down do you measure the play in the cam chain or is there a specified torque on the CCT bolt?
Does the valve cover push down on the cam chain therefore putting more pressure on it after you have done your cam chain play measurement?
How often to you have to adjust them once installed?
When you torque them down do you measure the play in the cam chain or is there a specified torque on the CCT bolt?
Does the valve cover push down on the cam chain therefore putting more pressure on it after you have done your cam chain play measurement?
03-05-2005, 12:04 PM
#2
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You'll need to adjust the MCCTs once a year. Possibly more if you're constantly riding hard.
I tried installing my own MCCTs, but I fouled up the cam chains by rotating the crankshaft when they weren't tightened down.
Don't forget to get the gaskets for the CCTs.
I tried installing my own MCCTs, but I fouled up the cam chains by rotating the crankshaft when they weren't tightened down.
Don't forget to get the gaskets for the CCTs.
03-07-2005, 10:29 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
03-08-2005, 06:36 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
After riding from Buffalo, ny to central PA to meet some buddies for a couple days of riding... well, we were about to hit the real twisty roads and I hear this ungawdly clackety noise coming from the front cylinder. It seemed to match the engine speed so I realized it was NOT a bunch of playing cards smacking my rim spokes....
Anyway, I've read about the sound a bad CCT makes so I had a pretty good idea that's what it was. I found a tire shop with some good magazines to hang out while my buds continued on and I waited for a AAA flatbed to take me back to the motel I was supposed to stay at. My brother and his g-friend drove 4hrs to come pick me up with my truck and trailer, helluva guy he is!
When I got home I ordered a CCT, oem from ronayers.com, and just swapped it out, hoping that I had not done any damage buy jumping a tooth on the cam sprocket. Well, it fired right up, no noises and I did a trackday the next weekend. I had about 18K on the odo when this happened.
Anyway, I've read about the sound a bad CCT makes so I had a pretty good idea that's what it was. I found a tire shop with some good magazines to hang out while my buds continued on and I waited for a AAA flatbed to take me back to the motel I was supposed to stay at. My brother and his g-friend drove 4hrs to come pick me up with my truck and trailer, helluva guy he is!
When I got home I ordered a CCT, oem from ronayers.com, and just swapped it out, hoping that I had not done any damage buy jumping a tooth on the cam sprocket. Well, it fired right up, no noises and I did a trackday the next weekend. I had about 18K on the odo when this happened.
03-08-2005, 10:31 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
I think there is a walk through on Greg Nemish's site but I can't get the links to work off his main page. Any chance someone can post a direct link here for me to the CCT page???? 
03-10-2005, 07:23 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
You might want to take off the valve covers and top chain guides off for the initial install and there is a rubber o-ring on the threaded bolt that needs to be rolled back about 10 -15 threads first time . After setting the tightness just roll the o-ring back to the anodized block and lock the nut .
Specs are in the package the tensioners come in . Just get each cylinder on TDC so the nose of the cams are not pushing the lifter buckets in , that way the chain has no tension on it .
If you have any problems , post but I can tell you as tight as you can get with your fingers only will be close for checking .
Specs are in the package the tensioners come in . Just get each cylinder on TDC so the nose of the cams are not pushing the lifter buckets in , that way the chain has no tension on it .
If you have any problems , post but I can tell you as tight as you can get with your fingers only will be close for checking .
03-19-2005, 03:16 PM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
Just my 2 cents about the tension for APEs.
I recently made the 'upgrade' to APEs and I wanted to be sure I didn't set the tension to high. After removing the original auto-CCTs I setup a jig over a scale to see how much pressure the CCT plunger has on the cam chain. It measured out to be between 4 lbs and 6 lbs depending on how far the plunger was retracted. Since mine were about in mid travel when they were removed I chose 5 lbs as a reasonable amount of pressure to set the manual APEs. I then removed the Auto-CCts and mounted a manual APE CCT in the jig just to see if I could measure the torque needed to get 5lbs plunger pressure. The lowest setting on my inch-pound torque wrench was to high so I had to resort to gauging with a 'calibrated finger tension'. I played with the APE in the jig long enough to get a feel for what 5lbs would feel like. With one APE mounted in the rear cyl and the other APE in my jig I'd then adjust the two until I was sure the one in the engine was the same. I then wanted have a better way to reset the thing months or years from now when I couldn't rely on having my 'finger memory' so I just turned the adjusting screw in as far as I could on the engine-mounted APE and I found I could turn it slightly more than 1 full turn (fingers only). It was actually between 1 full turn and 1 turn + 1/6th. So from now on my readjustments will be simply to tighten it as far as I can (cold engine) and back off 1 turn.
Both my auto-CCts meassured the same spring plunger tension on the scale so I feel like this 5lb pressure is accurate (yep, I checked the scale calibration also).
Hope this helps.
I recently made the 'upgrade' to APEs and I wanted to be sure I didn't set the tension to high. After removing the original auto-CCTs I setup a jig over a scale to see how much pressure the CCT plunger has on the cam chain. It measured out to be between 4 lbs and 6 lbs depending on how far the plunger was retracted. Since mine were about in mid travel when they were removed I chose 5 lbs as a reasonable amount of pressure to set the manual APEs. I then removed the Auto-CCts and mounted a manual APE CCT in the jig just to see if I could measure the torque needed to get 5lbs plunger pressure. The lowest setting on my inch-pound torque wrench was to high so I had to resort to gauging with a 'calibrated finger tension'. I played with the APE in the jig long enough to get a feel for what 5lbs would feel like. With one APE mounted in the rear cyl and the other APE in my jig I'd then adjust the two until I was sure the one in the engine was the same. I then wanted have a better way to reset the thing months or years from now when I couldn't rely on having my 'finger memory' so I just turned the adjusting screw in as far as I could on the engine-mounted APE and I found I could turn it slightly more than 1 full turn (fingers only). It was actually between 1 full turn and 1 turn + 1/6th. So from now on my readjustments will be simply to tighten it as far as I can (cold engine) and back off 1 turn.
Both my auto-CCts meassured the same spring plunger tension on the scale so I feel like this 5lb pressure is accurate (yep, I checked the scale calibration also).
Hope this helps.
03-24-2005, 08:28 AM
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Sorry no photo, I dismantled it. It was simply a 25lb scale mounted under an arch made from some 1x3" pine. The CCT was screwed into the top of the arch over the scale platform so the CCT plunger would be free to contact the scale platform. Nothing high-tech. The scate wasn't anything fancy but I did take a 5lb steel plate I had and compared the reading from my scale against a good postal-digital scale.
08-03-2005, 08:18 PM
#17
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
Sorry to dig up an old thread but I was hoping someone could explain how the position of the cams affects the cam chain tension? Seems to me it would be related to the speed and load on the engine. I'm trying to figure out why there is a difference between how people install the manual CCT's, with some folks just slapping them on to others removing the valve covers. I will probably replace mine with Honda CCT's soon and have my bike scheduled for a valve clearance adjust in a few weeks. Don't know whether I can do it on my own without doing a bunch of the work I'll be paying someone else to do in terms of tear-down.
Thanks for the lesson.
Thanks for the lesson.
08-04-2005, 06:28 AM
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If your not confident doing your own valve adjustment I wouldn't recommend doing the CCT replacement yourself.
Engine damage could result if you get it wrong.
~Jeffers
Engine damage could result if you get it wrong.
~Jeffers
08-04-2005, 07:27 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
Makes sense and is good advice, and that's why I'll have it done.
But despite the fact I won't do the work I am still interested in understanding how to do it. While checking the valve clearance seems straightforward, adjusting the valves seems more complex, with removing the cams and lifters and accurately measuring shim differences, plus re-timing etc when done.
Bringing me back to my question about cam chain tension. Cam chain and sprockets go round and round, lobes and valves go up and down...Manual CCT lifters apply a steady amount of pressure to the CCT with the locking nut while Honda OEM lifters apply mostly steady pressure that varies over time with automatic adjustments by the spring to chain tension. Am I on the right track?
When intalling a CCT lifter do you need make sure you're at TDC because when you take the tension off the cam chain it may slide or jump due to the valve spring pressure on the lobe?
And when is the cam chain tension most variable, accross the range of engine speeds or is it more gradual loosening over time that needs to be slightly compensated for?
Thanks again, I appreciate your time and insight.
But despite the fact I won't do the work I am still interested in understanding how to do it. While checking the valve clearance seems straightforward, adjusting the valves seems more complex, with removing the cams and lifters and accurately measuring shim differences, plus re-timing etc when done.
Bringing me back to my question about cam chain tension. Cam chain and sprockets go round and round, lobes and valves go up and down...Manual CCT lifters apply a steady amount of pressure to the CCT with the locking nut while Honda OEM lifters apply mostly steady pressure that varies over time with automatic adjustments by the spring to chain tension. Am I on the right track?
When intalling a CCT lifter do you need make sure you're at TDC because when you take the tension off the cam chain it may slide or jump due to the valve spring pressure on the lobe?
And when is the cam chain tension most variable, accross the range of engine speeds or is it more gradual loosening over time that needs to be slightly compensated for?
Thanks again, I appreciate your time and insight.
08-04-2005, 07:49 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
While checking the valve clearance seems straightforward, adjusting the valves seems more complex, with removing the cams and lifters and accurately measuring shim differences, plus re-timing etc when done.
When intalling a CCT lifter do you need make sure you're at TDC because when you take the tension off the cam chain it may slide or jump due to the valve spring pressure on the lobe?
And when is the cam chain tension most variable, accross the range of engine speeds or is it more gradual loosening over time that needs to be slightly compensated for?
Thanks again, I appreciate your time and insight.
When intalling a CCT lifter do you need make sure you're at TDC because when you take the tension off the cam chain it may slide or jump due to the valve spring pressure on the lobe?
And when is the cam chain tension most variable, accross the range of engine speeds or is it more gradual loosening over time that needs to be slightly compensated for?
Thanks again, I appreciate your time and insight.
Yes, when removing/installing a CCT the tension has to be removed from the chain. The CAMs are positioned like you are checking the valve clearances, ie: free from contact with the valves. If you have a manual that will show you how to position the crank then you are all set to pull the auto-CCT and install new ones.
After you make the tension adjustment on the newly installed APE CCTs you really won't need to worry much about readjustments very often. The slight wear of the chain itself and the cam gears will be the only reason it needs to be readjusted, and those items just don't wear much.
The only thing you'll need to do this simple replacement is the knowing how to position the crank (and cams) before you pull each CCT. If you need me to I can post the details for you....
08-04-2005, 11:55 AM
#21
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
Torque them down so there is 1/4" total slack in the cam chain measuring between the lobes NOT 1/4" deflection as per the instructions on the back of the APE packaging. Their instructions are wrong, we phoned them and 1/4" deflection is way too loose.
08-04-2005, 03:55 PM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
Bringing me back to my question about cam chain tension. Cam chain and sprockets go round and round, lobes and valves go up and down...Manual CCT lifters apply a steady amount of pressure to the CCT with the locking nut while Honda OEM lifters apply mostly steady pressure that varies over time with automatic adjustments by the spring to chain tension. Am I on the right track?
*****************
The manuals take the slack out of the chain and just hold it there.
The OEM tensioners are designed to be a kind of ratchet, that allows them the tighten automatically but not 'back off' and allow the cam chain to become looser.
When intalling a CCT lifter do you need make sure you're at TDC because when you take the tension off the cam chain it may slide or jump due to the valve spring pressure on the lobe?
**************
That's correct, but I think it's good to verify cam timimg afterward by hand cranking the engine and rechecking it before firing it up.
***************
And when is the cam chain tension most variable, accross the range of engine speeds or is it more gradual loosening over time that needs to be slightly compensated for?
****************
gradual loosening over time, that's so gradual after break-in, that the OEM's aren't worth having the chance of them failing and running valves into pistons if the spring breaks.
Also they wear out and lose their ratcheting ability, so they start backing off intermittantly and making noise.
This noise gets more frequent and louder with time.
********************
Thanks again, I appreciate your time and insight.
*****************
The manuals take the slack out of the chain and just hold it there.
The OEM tensioners are designed to be a kind of ratchet, that allows them the tighten automatically but not 'back off' and allow the cam chain to become looser.
When intalling a CCT lifter do you need make sure you're at TDC because when you take the tension off the cam chain it may slide or jump due to the valve spring pressure on the lobe?
**************
That's correct, but I think it's good to verify cam timimg afterward by hand cranking the engine and rechecking it before firing it up.
***************
And when is the cam chain tension most variable, accross the range of engine speeds or is it more gradual loosening over time that needs to be slightly compensated for?
****************
gradual loosening over time, that's so gradual after break-in, that the OEM's aren't worth having the chance of them failing and running valves into pistons if the spring breaks.
Also they wear out and lose their ratcheting ability, so they start backing off intermittantly and making noise.
This noise gets more frequent and louder with time.
********************
Thanks again, I appreciate your time and insight.
You bet,
~Jeffers
08-06-2005, 08:36 PM
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Ok, to clarify, If I set each cylinder to TDC before I pull the old CCT, there is no reason to have the head covers off right? Just thought I'd ask, since there seems to be no reason to have them off except to verify that the cylinder is at TDC. And if the crankshaft doesn't move during this process, why should I need to worry about camshaft timing? With the cylinders at TDC, there isn't any pressure on the cams to cause them to turn. Mucking about (gently) in the middle of the chain can't cause the fixed relationship (based on chain tooth position) to change on either end? Is the "pull the covers" just paranoia? Sorry to ask, but it just seems simpler than that.
08-06-2005, 10:09 PM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
If you can be certain your @ TDC (compression) on the cylinder your working on.
Then the only thing I could see happening is (on the rear cylinder), the cam chain falling away from the crankshaft sprocket, which is at the lowest point of the chain and half the diameter of the cam sprocket.
The front cylinder might be safer to try this on.
I wouldn't chance doing it this way, it's too easy to remove a valve cover, find TDC for certain, verify cam timing, handcrank the engine thru, and verify cam timing again.
That way your safe, why not check valve clearances at the same time?
~Jeffers <-- I really wouldn't chance it.
Then the only thing I could see happening is (on the rear cylinder), the cam chain falling away from the crankshaft sprocket, which is at the lowest point of the chain and half the diameter of the cam sprocket.
The front cylinder might be safer to try this on.
I wouldn't chance doing it this way, it's too easy to remove a valve cover, find TDC for certain, verify cam timing, handcrank the engine thru, and verify cam timing again.
That way your safe, why not check valve clearances at the same time?
~Jeffers <-- I really wouldn't chance it.
08-07-2005, 04:51 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
Galaxieman,
Yes you do definately need to have each cylinder at TDC before removing the CCT to take the valve spring tension off the chain. There is an easy way to do this without having to even remove the valve covers - if you have a helper in the shop for a few minutes that is.
Remove the timing inspection cap AND crank end cap on the left engine case. (Your shop helper will be turning the crank counter-clockwise and letting you know when the "FT" mark comes up at the timing mark in the site window.)
Remove the front-right bolt on the front cyl valve cover. You'll be looking at the right lobe of the front cylinder exhaust cam as the crank is rotated. You'll need a small (smaller the better) flashlight.
When the crank is rotated CCW and the 'FT' mark comes up in the window the cam will be at one of two possible positions. The position you want is when the peak of the lobe is pointed 'up and forward' (toward the headlight). This is the cam position for the front cyl that is used to check valve clearances and the position you can safely remove the CCT.
Now remove the Honda CCT and install the new front cyl APE CCT and set the tension (read my earlier post in this thread).
Now on to the rear cyl.
Turn the crank 270° counter-clockwise and you'll see the 'RT' mark come up in the site window. That puts the rear cylinder in the correct TDC position. You don't need to visually verify this (by looking at a cam lobe) for the rear cyl since your starting from the correct TDC position on the front cyl.
Again, remove the auto-CCT and install the APE-CCT and set the tension.
You're done.
I outlined why I set the APE-CCT tension as I did earlier in this thread but in a different post Jeffers (caffeineracer) had a method that may be a bit more accurate. My method was simply based on the auto-cct from Honda having the correct tension to start with. In reality the Auto-CCT was probably designed to have a safe margin of tension greater than what would be 'ideal'. Since the Honda-CCT plunger has less pressure on the cam chain when it is more extended and more pressure when more retracted (like a newer - lower mileage engine) it seems that it is likely the Auto-CCT may be putting excessive tension on the chain in the earlier life of the engine. My setting of 5lbs pressure on the plunger was based on what I measured on the removed auto-CCT plungers from my engine that were in about mid-travel.
If you adjust the tension as Jeffers does it seems logical you'd have the ideal setting with minimum tension (and wear).
If I remember his previous post, with the engine running he backs off on the adjustment screw to the point of just hearing some chain noise and then slowly retightens it to quiet the noise. That's it. It might be best to start with both CCTs set as I did to be sure the APE-CCTs are 'in the proper range' before starting the engine.
Good Luck
Yes you do definately need to have each cylinder at TDC before removing the CCT to take the valve spring tension off the chain. There is an easy way to do this without having to even remove the valve covers - if you have a helper in the shop for a few minutes that is.
Remove the timing inspection cap AND crank end cap on the left engine case. (Your shop helper will be turning the crank counter-clockwise and letting you know when the "FT" mark comes up at the timing mark in the site window.)
Remove the front-right bolt on the front cyl valve cover. You'll be looking at the right lobe of the front cylinder exhaust cam as the crank is rotated. You'll need a small (smaller the better) flashlight.
When the crank is rotated CCW and the 'FT' mark comes up in the window the cam will be at one of two possible positions. The position you want is when the peak of the lobe is pointed 'up and forward' (toward the headlight). This is the cam position for the front cyl that is used to check valve clearances and the position you can safely remove the CCT.
Now remove the Honda CCT and install the new front cyl APE CCT and set the tension (read my earlier post in this thread).
Now on to the rear cyl.
Turn the crank 270° counter-clockwise and you'll see the 'RT' mark come up in the site window. That puts the rear cylinder in the correct TDC position. You don't need to visually verify this (by looking at a cam lobe) for the rear cyl since your starting from the correct TDC position on the front cyl.
Again, remove the auto-CCT and install the APE-CCT and set the tension.
You're done.
I outlined why I set the APE-CCT tension as I did earlier in this thread but in a different post Jeffers (caffeineracer) had a method that may be a bit more accurate. My method was simply based on the auto-cct from Honda having the correct tension to start with. In reality the Auto-CCT was probably designed to have a safe margin of tension greater than what would be 'ideal'. Since the Honda-CCT plunger has less pressure on the cam chain when it is more extended and more pressure when more retracted (like a newer - lower mileage engine) it seems that it is likely the Auto-CCT may be putting excessive tension on the chain in the earlier life of the engine. My setting of 5lbs pressure on the plunger was based on what I measured on the removed auto-CCT plungers from my engine that were in about mid-travel.
If you adjust the tension as Jeffers does it seems logical you'd have the ideal setting with minimum tension (and wear).
If I remember his previous post, with the engine running he backs off on the adjustment screw to the point of just hearing some chain noise and then slowly retightens it to quiet the noise. That's it. It might be best to start with both CCTs set as I did to be sure the APE-CCTs are 'in the proper range' before starting the engine.
Good Luck
08-10-2005, 06:04 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
If you can be certain your @ TDC (compression) on the cylinder your working on.
Then the only thing I could see happening is (on the rear cylinder), the cam chain falling away from the crankshaft sprocket, which is at the lowest point of the chain and half the diameter of the cam sprocket.
The front cylinder might be safer to try this on.
I wouldn't chance doing it this way, it's too easy to remove a valve cover, find TDC for certain, verify cam timing, handcrank the engine thru, and verify cam timing again.
Then the only thing I could see happening is (on the rear cylinder), the cam chain falling away from the crankshaft sprocket, which is at the lowest point of the chain and half the diameter of the cam sprocket.
The front cylinder might be safer to try this on.
I wouldn't chance doing it this way, it's too easy to remove a valve cover, find TDC for certain, verify cam timing, handcrank the engine thru, and verify cam timing again.
Is there another way to check TDC ? (removing front valve cover is not easy....) unmounting spark plug and check how far the pistons is ?
Beginning with the rear at TDC (taking off rear valve cover to be sure), what is the procedure to place the front at TDC ? (how many turns at the flywheel, clockwise/counter-clockwise) ?
08-10-2005, 08:22 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
How could we prevent the "cam chain falling away from the crankshaft sprocket" for a CCT change ?
Is there another way to check TDC ? (removing front valve cover is not easy....) unmounting spark plug and check how far the pistons is ?
Beginning with the rear at TDC (taking off rear valve cover to be sure), what is the procedure to place the front at TDC ? (how many turns at the flywheel, clockwise/counter-clockwise) ?
Is there another way to check TDC ? (removing front valve cover is not easy....) unmounting spark plug and check how far the pistons is ?
Beginning with the rear at TDC (taking off rear valve cover to be sure), what is the procedure to place the front at TDC ? (how many turns at the flywheel, clockwise/counter-clockwise) ?
roadrun_fr
If for some reason you don't like the method I outlined above ( that doesn't require you to remove any valve covers) then you can do the job by removing just the rear valve cover, which beats the heck out of removing both:
1. remove the rear cyl valve cover and the timing inspection cap AND crank end cap
2. crank the motor counter clockwise until 'RT' shows in the timing window AND the lobes are all pointed 'up and out' (ie: if the lobes are pointed 'down & in" just rotate the crank 360° CCW back to the 'RT' mark)
3. Now that the rear cyl is at TDC you can remove the auto-CCT . You don't need to worry about the chain being forced by any valve spring pressure nor do you need to worry about the chain falling off any sprockets. Just remove the auto-CCT and install the new APE-CCT.
4. set the tension on the APE-cct. You're done with the rear CYL.
5. Turn the crank 450° CCW (1¼ turns) and stop at the 'FT' timing mark.
6. Now the front cyl is at TDC, do the CCT swap on the front .... set tension .... DONE
08-10-2005, 08:31 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
Thanks a lot for the "rear" instructions ! :wink:
I would see the cam just after removing the front right bolt thru the bolt hole ?
Why ?
08-10-2005, 08:40 AM
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Re: About to install APE CCT's
roadrun_fr
If you decide to use the second method (removing the rear valve cover) you do not need to visually verify the front cyl cam. Since you verified the TDC on the rear cyl with the valve cover off all you need to do is turn the crank CCW 1¼ turns and that is TDC on the front
If you decide to use the second method (removing the rear valve cover) you do not need to visually verify the front cyl cam. Since you verified the TDC on the rear cyl with the valve cover off all you need to do is turn the crank CCW 1¼ turns and that is TDC on the front
