1998 superhawk. Something blew on the highway
02-21-2018, 05:24 PM
#1
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1998 superhawk. Something blew on the highway
I juat bought a superhawk 1998 with 35k milea. Doesn't leak oil or anything. Everything appears well. Rode it home about 50 miles. Been on 3 or 4 10 mile or so rides. Then a 50 mile ride an 4 hours later 50 miles back. So far everything's good. Each of the 50 mile rides were mostly at 90mph when happened at 5k rpms.
I know nothing about the rest of the bikes history other than irs clearly been dropped a few times. So im riding on the highway today and 15 miles in i feel like im having power loss. In the same manner as running out of gas. Very subtle. Enough that i think its in my head and my grip on the throttle let off a little. So i gas it more. About one minute later theres a pop or clank noise and my the bike has a big power loss. Doesnt die. The noise repeated maybe two more times happening about every 2-3 seconds before i pulled in the clutch and pull over. Each time the bike essentially had a big power loss for a second then jumped up for a second then died down. When i pulled over theres a small puddle of coolant. Very small. It wasnt there until the bike sat for a minute. Im still sitting in the highway waiting for my friend so we can get my truck and load it up. So i dont have any more information. The temp was in the middle of the gauge which isnt overheating but is too high considering it was going at night at 90mph. It should be alot cooler.
As to the noise i cant be certain what it really sounded like because i had ear plugs in and the second i realized this was no good i pulled over.
what does this sound like to anyone ? Any ideas, im hoping its not any permanent damage to the cylinder walls. I can replace all sorts of internals. And obviously something on the coolant blew. Or a gasket. Maybe the head. Theres no oil on the ground.
somebody might suggest 90 mph on the highway is stupid but as far as i know its 100% in tolerable riding conditions. Unless all that power is only mesnt to be had for 5 seconds at a time and im an idiot. 5k seems right for that speed.
I know nothing about the rest of the bikes history other than irs clearly been dropped a few times. So im riding on the highway today and 15 miles in i feel like im having power loss. In the same manner as running out of gas. Very subtle. Enough that i think its in my head and my grip on the throttle let off a little. So i gas it more. About one minute later theres a pop or clank noise and my the bike has a big power loss. Doesnt die. The noise repeated maybe two more times happening about every 2-3 seconds before i pulled in the clutch and pull over. Each time the bike essentially had a big power loss for a second then jumped up for a second then died down. When i pulled over theres a small puddle of coolant. Very small. It wasnt there until the bike sat for a minute. Im still sitting in the highway waiting for my friend so we can get my truck and load it up. So i dont have any more information. The temp was in the middle of the gauge which isnt overheating but is too high considering it was going at night at 90mph. It should be alot cooler.
As to the noise i cant be certain what it really sounded like because i had ear plugs in and the second i realized this was no good i pulled over.
what does this sound like to anyone ? Any ideas, im hoping its not any permanent damage to the cylinder walls. I can replace all sorts of internals. And obviously something on the coolant blew. Or a gasket. Maybe the head. Theres no oil on the ground.
somebody might suggest 90 mph on the highway is stupid but as far as i know its 100% in tolerable riding conditions. Unless all that power is only mesnt to be had for 5 seconds at a time and im an idiot. 5k seems right for that speed.
02-21-2018, 08:45 PM
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Drain some oil and see if it's contaminated. Find the source of the coolant leak.
Then start thinking about doing a compression test. I personally wouldn't crank it with the starter till I knew there wasn't any major damage done.
Did at any point the power come back to "normal" or was it an event that the power went and never came back?
Then start thinking about doing a compression test. I personally wouldn't crank it with the starter till I knew there wasn't any major damage done.
Did at any point the power come back to "normal" or was it an event that the power went and never came back?
02-22-2018, 09:50 AM
#3
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The power fluctuated over 2 seconds before i pulled the clutch in. It went from like 40% to 90-100% to 40 to 90-100% each time the fluct happened. The engine making some noises its definitely not supposed to make. When i pulled the clutch it was still idling. 90% sure it still was. But i turned it off immediately. It actually smelled like burning rubber a little? The cooling system definitely just started to fail imo. It was leaking a little bit. I cant actually see anywhere the leak came from and not a lot came out. Im going to look at the fluids and oil later.
Im avoiding starting it for sure until i have a better idea of what happened. If theres a bent valve or something im not going to further ravage the insides by trying to run that.
this is to me starting to sound more and more like compression loss and a blown gasket. If you lose a cylinder though would it make sounds like that? Ive had a sparkplug go out on a two cyilnder before and there was nothing that sounded like that only power loss. And if compression was lost i dont think it would fluctuate in power? The sounds definitely were not in sync with the rpms so it wasnt happening every stroke or 4 strokes.
that fluctation only happened twice over probably 2-3 seconds really hard to say so how long so dont quote that. First thing that comes to mind is **** turn it off, damaging the inside, get off the highway. Maybe it would have kept doing it for a minute or two, maybe something much worse and irreparable would have happened seconds later. The temp gauge is divided into 3 sections if i remember right. Mine if idling for a while or in stop and go will point north dead center of the gauge when not moving. At the speed i was going its always in the left cool 1/3rd area. But when this happened it was dead center pointing vertical which should never happen when moving fast enough.
Im avoiding starting it for sure until i have a better idea of what happened. If theres a bent valve or something im not going to further ravage the insides by trying to run that.
this is to me starting to sound more and more like compression loss and a blown gasket. If you lose a cylinder though would it make sounds like that? Ive had a sparkplug go out on a two cyilnder before and there was nothing that sounded like that only power loss. And if compression was lost i dont think it would fluctuate in power? The sounds definitely were not in sync with the rpms so it wasnt happening every stroke or 4 strokes.
that fluctation only happened twice over probably 2-3 seconds really hard to say so how long so dont quote that. First thing that comes to mind is **** turn it off, damaging the inside, get off the highway. Maybe it would have kept doing it for a minute or two, maybe something much worse and irreparable would have happened seconds later. The temp gauge is divided into 3 sections if i remember right. Mine if idling for a while or in stop and go will point north dead center of the gauge when not moving. At the speed i was going its always in the left cool 1/3rd area. But when this happened it was dead center pointing vertical which should never happen when moving fast enough.
Last edited by Kevin Doane; 02-22-2018 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Forgot to mention this.
02-24-2018, 12:58 PM
#5
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Im sure it does. I dont know. Guy i bought it from doesnt know. So tried to start it just to see what happens. No doubt shouldnt have done that. It ignited for a second sounded like a few rotations before dieing. When i got it to start again. No normal turnovers just what can only be described as a 50 cal going off in my exhaust. I have stock exhaust one side is capped right now.
This makes me think the Cam chain snapped? This times the pistons doesnt it? Because the only thing i can imagine that makes sense to explain the sound is that gas ignited inside the piston while exhaust valve was open. It sounded like a pipe bomb went off inside a metal tube. And the sound 100% came from the exhaust. Just a guess, i actually got it on video, ill post to YouTube and put a link up later.
that puddle was 100% runoff from one of the drainage hoses on the left side of the bike. Ive just never seen enough drops come out of that to form a wetspot with about 5 inch diameter. So theres no external leak anywhere.
This makes me think the Cam chain snapped? This times the pistons doesnt it? Because the only thing i can imagine that makes sense to explain the sound is that gas ignited inside the piston while exhaust valve was open. It sounded like a pipe bomb went off inside a metal tube. And the sound 100% came from the exhaust. Just a guess, i actually got it on video, ill post to YouTube and put a link up later.
that puddle was 100% runoff from one of the drainage hoses on the left side of the bike. Ive just never seen enough drops come out of that to form a wetspot with about 5 inch diameter. So theres no external leak anywhere.
02-24-2018, 01:01 PM
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So the temp gauge running in the middle isn't a sign of anything going wrong.
Also where are you located at?
02-24-2018, 08:01 PM
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02-27-2018, 11:20 PM
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So i want to check the timing of the bike. http://www.vtr1000.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=8326 this guy describes symptoms such as hard to start. Draining the battery alot. My bike does this. I just assumed the battery was nearing the end of its lifespan but given recent events it makes more sense to think the timings off. And it got worse on the highway? Chain stretches under heat because it probably needs to be replaced.
after some searching i just find that guide, but that guide details just replacing the chain. I suspect checking the timing minus replacing it, is really similar. Anyone can tell me how its different in steps or point me to a guide i havent found yet?
should i just buy the manual ccts to replace presumably the stock ones, get the valve cover gasket and just go through the guide?
after some searching i just find that guide, but that guide details just replacing the chain. I suspect checking the timing minus replacing it, is really similar. Anyone can tell me how its different in steps or point me to a guide i havent found yet?
should i just buy the manual ccts to replace presumably the stock ones, get the valve cover gasket and just go through the guide?
Last edited by Kevin Doane; 02-27-2018 at 11:26 PM. Reason: Incomplete
02-27-2018, 11:38 PM
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When was the bike last serviced and valves adjusted? before contemplating the need to replace cam chain make sure all the fundamental basics are running right. Yes add fitting MCCTs in near future to ensure reliability and have you got a multimeter to check your bike's battery & charging sytem. VTR's R/R is another weak point that can be fixed with a FH MOSFET R/R and more modern SH type.
02-27-2018, 11:58 PM
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I have no idea, and the guy i bought it from has no idea. It was a craigslist buy for 1300. Its been running great for the 200 or so miles ive put on it before this happened. Im sure it's charging fine. Once it's warm itll sometimes turn over until the batteries dead if i have to turn it off and start it again. Ive had it just shut off a couple times when its been idling fine and i havent been moving. Its also shutoff when pulling the clutch to roll to a stop if im moving too fast(i read this is normal for these bikes)
Im not going to take it to anyone if i dont have to, to service anything. Im mechanically inclined and part of learning happens by doing and gaining the experience. I follow instructions really well and can easily make sense of service guides. Im going to check the compression and valves when i get a few things to do so. Im trying to figure out how to determine if my timings off as part of the diagnostic process. Ill check the charging, battery when i buy a new multimeter but the problem is not electrical except possibly starting the bike. That would be a secondary issue i might discover.
im definitely not going to replace anything if its unnecessary i am simply trying to determine if its needed. Searching isnt coming up with a whole lot so im going to go find a pdf of the service manual and see if theres a simple way to check the timing. Im assuming its taking the side cover off and the valve cover and watching the valves while looking for the mark in the window. Turning the crankshaft anticlockwise.
the bike undoubtedly needs almost everything serviced. Just focused on getting the engine running properly right now. I wont start it anymore and risk a more expensive problem by damaging the head or valves further if the timings off. So thats what im trying to do right now. So starting it to disgnose anything is out of the question. Ive had carb twins have a cyilnder dropnout from a boot with a loose connection before and there was no metallic clanking coming from the engine. Ill check both plugs and all the electicals when i get the meter in a day or two but unless this bike just clanks on one cyilnder im not concerned with that being the issue. And as long as its clanking at 5krpms and power going up and down i will not start it. Seems like a sure way to wreck the valves and head.
so i guess the better question is since im not being very clear and am presenting my own inexperience opinions and assumptions is. What would you do to to diagnose the problem. Do you have from your greater experience any thoughts your leaning towards? Bikes hard to start especially after being warm. Bike clanked and had power fluctuate significantly while clanking over 2 seconds before i said f*** that im not breaking this thing and then pulling over. 90 mph at 5k rpms. Ran for 15 mins at this rate no issues. It was idling when i had clutch in before i stopped and immediately shut it off. Ignore all the previous stuff.
Im not going to take it to anyone if i dont have to, to service anything. Im mechanically inclined and part of learning happens by doing and gaining the experience. I follow instructions really well and can easily make sense of service guides. Im going to check the compression and valves when i get a few things to do so. Im trying to figure out how to determine if my timings off as part of the diagnostic process. Ill check the charging, battery when i buy a new multimeter but the problem is not electrical except possibly starting the bike. That would be a secondary issue i might discover.
im definitely not going to replace anything if its unnecessary i am simply trying to determine if its needed. Searching isnt coming up with a whole lot so im going to go find a pdf of the service manual and see if theres a simple way to check the timing. Im assuming its taking the side cover off and the valve cover and watching the valves while looking for the mark in the window. Turning the crankshaft anticlockwise.
the bike undoubtedly needs almost everything serviced. Just focused on getting the engine running properly right now. I wont start it anymore and risk a more expensive problem by damaging the head or valves further if the timings off. So thats what im trying to do right now. So starting it to disgnose anything is out of the question. Ive had carb twins have a cyilnder dropnout from a boot with a loose connection before and there was no metallic clanking coming from the engine. Ill check both plugs and all the electicals when i get the meter in a day or two but unless this bike just clanks on one cyilnder im not concerned with that being the issue. And as long as its clanking at 5krpms and power going up and down i will not start it. Seems like a sure way to wreck the valves and head.
so i guess the better question is since im not being very clear and am presenting my own inexperience opinions and assumptions is. What would you do to to diagnose the problem. Do you have from your greater experience any thoughts your leaning towards? Bikes hard to start especially after being warm. Bike clanked and had power fluctuate significantly while clanking over 2 seconds before i said f*** that im not breaking this thing and then pulling over. 90 mph at 5k rpms. Ran for 15 mins at this rate no issues. It was idling when i had clutch in before i stopped and immediately shut it off. Ignore all the previous stuff.
Last edited by Kevin Doane; 02-28-2018 at 12:07 AM. Reason: Errors
02-28-2018, 12:11 AM
#15
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What you describe is effectively correct; remove the two caps on the alternator cover so you can rotate the crank and see the timing marks. Remove the airbox and carbs and the cam covers. There are marks scribed on the cam sprockets that align with the edge of the head where the camcover gasket rests. Hard to describe, easier to see in the manual. Here's a dropbox link to the service manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnh696qph5...1000F.pdf?dl=0
Common wisdom is that it is more common for the front camchain tensioner to fail than the rear.
If your timing is off, there's a good chance the head and valves will collide, resulting in at least bent valves. A check on the valve clearance would reveal that, bent valves don't close fully so the clearance will be really big.
Common wisdom is that it is more common for the front camchain tensioner to fail than the rear.
If your timing is off, there's a good chance the head and valves will collide, resulting in at least bent valves. A check on the valve clearance would reveal that, bent valves don't close fully so the clearance will be really big.
03-05-2018, 05:39 AM
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Um, no. What in sam hell would make you think bent valves would be "ok"? Pull the valve covers and see where exactly your cams are timed.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...pe-ccts-11275/
Chances are you don't need new cam cover gaskets. Just strategically place some honda bond @ the 90 degree spots @ the half circle shaped corners (that make scents? lol). I prefer manuals but it's a free country, for now.
https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...pe-ccts-11275/
Chances are you don't need new cam cover gaskets. Just strategically place some honda bond @ the 90 degree spots @ the half circle shaped corners (that make scents? lol). I prefer manuals but it's a free country, for now.
Last edited by Wolverine; 03-05-2018 at 07:53 AM.
03-05-2018, 06:20 AM
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03-05-2018, 10:04 AM
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Im asking because i think it is idling okay. So the timing would not be off then? Im waiting till i get paid so i can go buy the tool to check the valve clearances and to get a compression gauge.
i dont want to start it to listen to the idle further unless someone confirms that if its ilding okay then the timings not off.
Is there any possible fuel delivery issue that would cause a bang/knocking sound? With power dropping and rising?
i dont want to start it to listen to the idle further unless someone confirms that if its ilding okay then the timings not off.
Is there any possible fuel delivery issue that would cause a bang/knocking sound? With power dropping and rising?
03-05-2018, 04:39 PM
#21
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Maybe a torn diaphragm in the carb?
You could pull the airbox, and idle the bike watching the slides move back and forth in the carbs. give it some gas and see if they slam shut and don't pull open.
Plug cap not making proper contact? bad coil?
It would just clank when trying to turn it over if the timing was way out, and if its only off a tooth, it'll sound like ****, cough and sputter.
You could pull the airbox, and idle the bike watching the slides move back and forth in the carbs. give it some gas and see if they slam shut and don't pull open.
Plug cap not making proper contact? bad coil?
It would just clank when trying to turn it over if the timing was way out, and if its only off a tooth, it'll sound like ****, cough and sputter.
03-06-2018, 10:37 PM
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Maybe a torn diaphragm in the carb?
You could pull the airbox, and idle the bike watching the slides move back and forth in the carbs. give it some gas and see if they slam shut and don't pull open.
Plug cap not making proper contact? bad coil?
It would just clank when trying to turn it over if the timing was way out, and if its only off a tooth, it'll sound like ****, cough and sputter.
You could pull the airbox, and idle the bike watching the slides move back and forth in the carbs. give it some gas and see if they slam shut and don't pull open.
Plug cap not making proper contact? bad coil?
It would just clank when trying to turn it over if the timing was way out, and if its only off a tooth, it'll sound like ****, cough and sputter.
Were using a jump box that stores enough juice into a capacitor and dumps it all at once to allow the bike to start. It's worked almost instantly in the past. Day of the video not so well. I get it started for a second. And it probably would have kept if i gassed it when it fired. Now that start other than the cut out sounds 100% normal to me, which suggests no timing issue?
https://youtu.be/gJon6wd2fSg
Now this video is at the end of the recording. Earlier up i described my bike fireing a gun or an m80 going off in the pipe. I gassed it every time i tried to start it. Im asking you guys if this could just be backfire? Ive never heard a backfire that loud before but if the exhaust flooded with some gas from me being an idiot could that be all this is?
https://youtu.be/OWbhPoOXI40
im actually about to just start it with jumper cables to listen to it, and then give iy a ride around the block if everything sounds normal. At this point im begining to think this is more of a carb issue or something else.
why? Because it was idling fine when i pulled over. The first video other then the failed start sounded normal for the second it was firing. And the knocking and power loss was no where near in sync with my rpms. I.e. it wasnt bad bearings or piston slap. Power dropped and a knock. Power comes back then a knock and power drop. At 5k rpms this was no where even close to being rapid enough to correlate to the crankshaft or pistons because if it had anything to do with that it would happen with every rotation?
if a piston just lost power on the spark would it knock at all when it happened? If that even is what happened then one cyilnder went out, the shaft rotated many times with the piston going up and down dead from the working one, then kicked back in (i say many times because the knock and power loss happened over many revolutions not with each one)
I still have no idea what happened but am convinced it has to be a fuel/carb issue to one cyilnder or electrical on one cyilnder.
so after listening to what the bike does in both those vids does it sound safe or resonable to start it at this point to further diagnose it or is there still a potential mechanical issue not ruled out that can cause engine damage?
03-08-2018, 09:35 AM
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03-08-2018, 03:15 PM
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03-09-2018, 01:59 AM
#27
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Im definitely listening and taking the advice the plan is to take the cover off and check the valves and timing. Thought maybe if someone had the stock pipes and have had the problems of either bad bearings or valve tap theyd recognize the sound. Thanks for the tips and the pdf link.
04-01-2018, 03:28 PM
#28
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They're all a little noisy. If it seems to be coming from the clutch cover, can you tell if the cover has ever been off? There is a sound dampening piece of metal with a rubber gasket on the inside of the cover. If the clutch was ever out, its a bitch to get the anti-rattle gear that is attached to the chain that drives the water pump. If its not lined up when the clutch basket is put back in, it'll always rattle a bit.
That sounds pretty excessive... but mine was noisy enough when I swapped the stock exhaust back on it. Didn't want to be a heat score last summer. My buddies and I rode down to the Tail of the Dragon, and my Hindle pipes are pretty loud... didn't want to get noticed.
That sounds pretty excessive... but mine was noisy enough when I swapped the stock exhaust back on it. Didn't want to be a heat score last summer. My buddies and I rode down to the Tail of the Dragon, and my Hindle pipes are pretty loud... didn't want to get noticed.
05-06-2018, 02:57 AM
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Took the carb and airbox off, which btw all of those hoses are so tight i cant even imagine how im going to reconnect them back to the bottom of the carb and airbox.
first thing i notice is that any deep18 mm socket wrench i can find anywhere wont fit in to grab the plug. Walls are too thick which is ridiculous honestly because they arent even thick to begin with. 17 mm doesnt fit the plug. Trying to pull the plugs because turning the crank with no compression is helpful. Can also just inspect them while im in here.
Now im realizing at this point, the rear plug is loose enough to turn with needle nose pliers on the top of the plug. In a momment of clarity i think to myself, my entire problem could be the power loss was yhe plug vibrating loose. I was either on one cyilnder or it was still firing but had enough compression loss to make it feel like one cyilnder. Next thought, is it loose enough for my valve tap sound to actually be that plug shaking in the slot? It wiggles very slightly.
screws in airbox are worn, so all of this has definitely been pulled before. So im hoping the CCT has already heen replaced, ill find out and check the timing anyways.
Not sure if the vid really sounds like it could beone cyilnder, sounds like theyre both firing to me but the power the bike currently has is definitely consistent withone cylinder.
Anyone have any advice on getting my plugs out trying to find a tool local today. Also any advice on reconnecting the carb and airbox? Everything is so damned tight i really cant inagine my hands getting under anything to fit hoses on anywhere. Thats actually got me concerned. The socket issue eith the spark plug is definitely ridiculous to be honest. Autozone ans homedepot had nothing that would work for it. Im going to check out harbo freight. I read on the forums a tool that screws into the boot threading i believe? I cant seem to find this.
first thing i notice is that any deep18 mm socket wrench i can find anywhere wont fit in to grab the plug. Walls are too thick which is ridiculous honestly because they arent even thick to begin with. 17 mm doesnt fit the plug. Trying to pull the plugs because turning the crank with no compression is helpful. Can also just inspect them while im in here.
Now im realizing at this point, the rear plug is loose enough to turn with needle nose pliers on the top of the plug. In a momment of clarity i think to myself, my entire problem could be the power loss was yhe plug vibrating loose. I was either on one cyilnder or it was still firing but had enough compression loss to make it feel like one cyilnder. Next thought, is it loose enough for my valve tap sound to actually be that plug shaking in the slot? It wiggles very slightly.
screws in airbox are worn, so all of this has definitely been pulled before. So im hoping the CCT has already heen replaced, ill find out and check the timing anyways.
Not sure if the vid really sounds like it could beone cyilnder, sounds like theyre both firing to me but the power the bike currently has is definitely consistent withone cylinder.
Anyone have any advice on getting my plugs out trying to find a tool local today. Also any advice on reconnecting the carb and airbox? Everything is so damned tight i really cant inagine my hands getting under anything to fit hoses on anywhere. Thats actually got me concerned. The socket issue eith the spark plug is definitely ridiculous to be honest. Autozone ans homedepot had nothing that would work for it. Im going to check out harbo freight. I read on the forums a tool that screws into the boot threading i believe? I cant seem to find this.
