Modifications - Performance Discuss aftermarket and DIY performance modifications

Timing advance in degree/RPM curve

Old 01-09-2010, 07:44 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Back Marker
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ITALY
Posts: 125
Rama is on a distinguished road
Timing advance in degree/RPM curve

Anyone have a graphic of the ignition timing advance of the SuperHawk/Firestorm???

This is an example of what i'm looking for... but is for Aprilia RS250... I search the same graphic, but for our bike...

Thanks!!!!
Rama is offline  
Old 01-09-2010, 08:31 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
gboezio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Victoriaville, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 880
gboezio is on a distinguished road
Well did you sort out your ignition problems ?? I guess you reverted to the aftermarket.

These are not the stocker, this a stock engine with non stock pipes and intake and a turbo of course, it may differ slightly and may not be zeroed, I was sick of recieving oil in my eyes from the timing sessions and I tuned it as is, but it's close to 0
It's tuned as minimum timing for best torque on 91 octane here, about 98 in Italy
Still it gives a good starting point for dyno tuning

Ignore the bins over 100 Kpa, this is turbo territory and don't forget my VE is lower so I may advance a bit more because of the turbine restriction and some reversion, so don't use it without verifying the plugs often for aluminium bits on the ceramic.

This engine is a timing *****, sure a big bore like advance, but the squish and combustion chamber design is not optimal, there is something to be gained there, will start a thread on this when I get more time.

The 0 to 3100 RPM load may be off due to the use of a false load algorithm Alpha-N, Throttle VS RPM, then revert to MAP VS RPM speed density algorithm witch reflect true load, but there is little difference in timing, the fuel table on the other side won't work unless you set the same Alpha-N table that emulate a load in Kpa from the TPS signal, because of the bad vacuum signal of a V-twin.

Name:  Sanstitre.jpg
Views: 559
Size:  63.6 KB

Last edited by gboezio; 01-09-2010 at 08:44 PM.
gboezio is offline  
Old 01-10-2010, 04:54 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
Back Marker
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ITALY
Posts: 125
Rama is on a distinguished road
Hi gboezio!

No, I hav'nt solve my electrical problems, but I'm waiting a visit from a friend at my home (he's electrical engineer).

I'm looking for the original parameters of the ignition timing because I'm interested into a racing full programmable unit system... after I have solve my actual problem, of course!
But for change the parameters, first I need of the original settings... so, first to buy, I want to be sure that this parameters are available...

Ah, what type of programmable unit could you use in your bike?
Rama is offline  
Old 01-10-2010, 06:23 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
gboezio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Victoriaville, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 880
gboezio is on a distinguished road
http://www.microsquirt.info/

There are units sold as board only for 200 $, but the aluminuim casing and Ampseal connector are too awesome to pass for 400 USD
To drive our bikes you need to install a Hall effect cam sensor, maybe the Varadero parts would work but I made one myself, you need the Varadero crank wheel since the one we have is unsuitable, I cut off one tooth as a signal pickup, still I recommend to use the stock computer since there is a lot to do to make this work properly and it's simpler, maybe a 4 ignition advancer.
If you intend to modify the engine, specially compression and run high octane gas later, then you should have full control over spark .
One thing for sure, Microsquirt is good to learn about EFI, it's not plug and play, some people have done it on the RC-51 (VTR1000 SP1 and SP2), using a 12 tooth wheel and the 3 tooth Varadero Cam wheel and sensor, there is a special code written specially for it at MS-Extra

To drive the converter trough the inputs, you need to set coil dwell to 2 mS and spark duration to 1 mS, this will ground the inputs for 2 miliseconds and release 1 mS, the stock converter is so powerful that it will ignite anything.
gboezio is offline  
Old 02-23-2010, 06:51 AM
  #5  
Member
Squid
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 45
hymey is on a distinguished road
timing curve

So does anyone know the timing curve of a stocker? I can see the modded tune has 31 deg of lead up top at 180 kpa over 10 psi. The stock hawk must run in the high 30s(ideally) i much doubt it though i get away with standard ULP no sign of detonation at all.
hymey is offline  
Old 02-23-2010, 12:29 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
gboezio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Victoriaville, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 880
gboezio is on a distinguished road
the whole table may be shifted a few degree off, I had a hard time to zero it to TDC, these are the result of MBT
That would be nice to set the TPS to WOT and do some RPM plots on a stock bike.
gboezio is offline  
Old 02-23-2010, 01:27 PM
  #7  
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
 
Tweety's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Skurup, Sweden
Posts: 6,109
Tweety is on a distinguished road
You could also get this... http://www.ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm the programmable one there is used by a member on the Swedish VTR forum with good results...
Tweety is offline  
Old 02-24-2010, 04:21 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
Back Marker
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ITALY
Posts: 125
Rama is on a distinguished road
I'm looking just for ignitech! ;-)
Rama is offline  
Old 04-11-2010, 11:31 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
Back Marker
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ITALY
Posts: 125
Rama is on a distinguished road
Tweety, can you link to me the name of the swedish user?

I'm interested and wish to understand better how to set the control unit... thanks! ;-)
Rama is offline  
Old 05-30-2010, 04:40 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
Back Marker
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ITALY
Posts: 125
Rama is on a distinguished road
And finally... I've found the original parameters!

I've send my original unit at Jan Matous of Ignitech, and he extract the parameters whit his instruments and software...

That's the results of a long job...

Rama is offline  
Old 05-30-2010, 05:47 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
SuperSport
 
gboezio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Victoriaville, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 880
gboezio is on a distinguished road
Nice thanks for this, I could use some numbers the bike is on the rough side under 3000 RPM, now I see why.
gboezio is offline  
Old 05-31-2010, 10:18 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 143
avramd is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Rama View Post
And finally... I've found the original parameters!

I've send my original unit at Jan Matous of Ignitech, and he extract the parameters whit his instruments and software...

That's the results of a long job...

I'm curious - is this simply reading the map out of the ignition timing computer directly? If this was obtained experimentally, can how exactly does one get the engine to 10,000 rpms with 0% throttle?
avramd is offline  
Old 05-31-2010, 10:30 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 143
avramd is on a distinguished road
In case anyone would like to be able to visualize those numbers:

Timing advance in degree/RPM curve-timing-map.jpg
avramd is offline  
Old 05-31-2010, 01:07 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
Back Marker
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ITALY
Posts: 125
Rama is on a distinguished road
good! ;-)
Rama is offline  
Old 05-31-2010, 01:11 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
Back Marker
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ITALY
Posts: 125
Rama is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by avramd View Post
I'm curious - is this simply reading the map out of the ignition timing computer directly? If this was obtained experimentally, can how exactly does one get the engine to 10,000 rpms with 0% throttle?
Yes, his software can read the unit when work, and when was connected to pick-up and TPS...

When at rev limiter you close the throttle, you have 10.000rpm at 0%TPS....

Where have you find your advance map?
Rama is offline  
Old 05-31-2010, 02:19 PM
  #16  
Banned
MotoGP
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lake View Terrace, CA
Posts: 5,942
8541Hawk will become famous soon enough
To bad you can't find a HRC box to see what they did different....
8541Hawk is offline  
Old 05-31-2010, 03:07 PM
  #17  
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Newport, RI
Posts: 143
avramd is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Rama View Post
Yes, his software can read the unit when work, and when was connected to pick-up and TPS...

When at rev limiter you close the throttle, you have 10.000rpm at 0%TPS....

Where have you find your advance map?
Ah, ok.

I just read the data out of your chart an put it into Excel, and then had it create a 3D graph. I skipped a few of the rows of your data so that the graph would have consistent 20% intervals. Note that the missing rows are basically identical to the nearest 20% row.
avramd is offline  
Old 09-13-2011, 05:20 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
Back Marker
 
2whltuner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 228
2whltuner is on a distinguished road
I currently run a HRC Ignition Module on my 1998 VTR, this is the second one I have owned, (this is the second VTR that I have owned so when I got this VTR it was imperative for me to find an HRC Ignition Module becasue I know how good it performed on my first VTR),

with the HRC Ignition Module you get an 1000 rpm increase in your engine rpm's (redline is now 10500 as opposed to 9500) and 4' of ignition advance and no sidestand ignition cutoff when the side stand is down while in gear,

the HRC Module gives you a definitive "hit" at 5500rpm's and pulls fast and smooth all the way to its 10500 redline, the rev limiter is "soft" and will over rev on downshifts and can cause problems like floating the valves, I know, I found out the hard way.

all in all, I too tried to track down an HRC Ignition Module when I got this second VTR, I went through Big Valley Honda with no luck but I did get the late Bob Hyashida's phone # and gave him a call, he said he didn't have and didn't know where to get one, then a couple of day's later he called me back and asked if I really wanted one, well hell yes, Bob actually had one, an authentic HRC Module and I asked him about the identification markings on the unit and they were complete, Bob sold me the unit for $400 which works perfectly with my ported heads and hi-comp engine.
2whltuner is offline  
Old 12-08-2011, 11:56 AM
  #19  
Member
Squid
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 48
xb9Fog is on a distinguished road
Originally Posted by Rama View Post
And finally... I've found the original parameters!

I've send my original unit at Jan Matous of Ignitech, and he extract the parameters whit his instruments and software...

That's the results of a long job...

Rama, please can you identify - is this chart from the 98-00 ECU or a '01 - '05 ECU??

TIA
xb9Fog is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
SunsetSuper
General Discussion
13
10-21-2013 06:30 AM
uchi
Technical Discussion
2
04-12-2011 08:14 PM
redman
Technical Discussion
3
09-19-2007 09:27 PM
redman
Technical Discussion
0
09-14-2007 09:19 PM
vtrlvr
General Discussion
3
02-24-2007 04:13 AM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Timing advance in degree/RPM curve


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.