Suspension not satisfactory?
06-28-2005, 02:03 AM
#1
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Location: Denver, CO
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Suspension not satisfactory?
I notice a lot of guys on this forum don't care for the suspension, particularly the front forks of the S-Hawk.
Mine is an '05 model. At deep leans at 100+mph the bike seems to be just fine, if not great, but then again, my previous sporty bikes have been the Kawi' Ninja 250, 500, and Suzuk' Katana 600, so perhaps my realm is limited!
If anything, at factory front settings, the front is a bit soft and a tad squirmy under hard lean from what I can tell. Rear setting I have is set to ultrasoft Charmin-setting due to infinity potholes in the I-25 / I-70 daily 85mph commute here in Denver.
I suspect inverting the forks in the front would be an uber-pain-in-the-*** but... is it that the forks are just to dive-y and soft?
Mine is an '05 model. At deep leans at 100+mph the bike seems to be just fine, if not great, but then again, my previous sporty bikes have been the Kawi' Ninja 250, 500, and Suzuk' Katana 600, so perhaps my realm is limited!
If anything, at factory front settings, the front is a bit soft and a tad squirmy under hard lean from what I can tell. Rear setting I have is set to ultrasoft Charmin-setting due to infinity potholes in the I-25 / I-70 daily 85mph commute here in Denver.
I suspect inverting the forks in the front would be an uber-pain-in-the-*** but... is it that the forks are just to dive-y and soft?
06-28-2005, 08:23 AM
#2
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
Mike,
No disrepect intened but those previous bikes have bargain bin suspensions of lower quality than even the VTR. You only know what you've experienced. Get a ride on a top shelf sport bike (set up correctly) and you'll be amazed.
The SuperHawk's forks have notoriously soft springs. Get yourself a set of correct weight racetech springs. If you don't do the work yourself, it would be cheaper in the long run to get the goldvalves/oil too and have it all done at once. Why pay twice to have the forks removed and torn down?
You can change springs without removing the forks but it's a PITA, a mess, and IMHO not the correct way to do it. You can remove them yourself quite easily, just need a way to hold/jack up the front end. No fairing removal required. Plus it's a great opportunity to change out the dirty, stock fork oil for something of higher quality.
Springs and new fluid will only run about $100 if you do the work yourself. The full racetech treatment done by them or others will be a minimum of $500+. There's other excellent companies too (traxxion, aftershocks, etc).
Warning: after you do this, you'll know the shock needs help too.
No disrepect intened but those previous bikes have bargain bin suspensions of lower quality than even the VTR. You only know what you've experienced. Get a ride on a top shelf sport bike (set up correctly) and you'll be amazed.
The SuperHawk's forks have notoriously soft springs. Get yourself a set of correct weight racetech springs. If you don't do the work yourself, it would be cheaper in the long run to get the goldvalves/oil too and have it all done at once. Why pay twice to have the forks removed and torn down?
You can change springs without removing the forks but it's a PITA, a mess, and IMHO not the correct way to do it. You can remove them yourself quite easily, just need a way to hold/jack up the front end. No fairing removal required. Plus it's a great opportunity to change out the dirty, stock fork oil for something of higher quality.
Springs and new fluid will only run about $100 if you do the work yourself. The full racetech treatment done by them or others will be a minimum of $500+. There's other excellent companies too (traxxion, aftershocks, etc).
Warning: after you do this, you'll know the shock needs help too.
06-28-2005, 08:49 AM
#3
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
Humm! maybe we have been badly understand, the front end suspension of the VTR is not so poor, it depends mostly on how you ride your bike of your weight and the road.
If you are 140Lbs, doing only highway and street riding on the limit of speed, yes the VTR front fork will seem to be perfect for you.
On the other hand, for rider who have already try recent sport bike as GSX-R 750/1000, CBR929/954 or even a CBR600RR and who attack on curve
, then try to do the same with a S-Hawk... they quickly understand!!
If the VTR front end suspension seem to be ok for you, great!! you will save a lot of money!
For more demanding rider there is some lack on the VTR suspension that are quickly identifiable... that's it!
So, enjoy you S-Hawk and keep your money for some other mods as a undertail or some nice pipes
Or if you would like to know what we are complaining about, do exactly what Doug said and you will know...
Cheers
If you are 140Lbs, doing only highway and street riding on the limit of speed, yes the VTR front fork will seem to be perfect for you.
On the other hand, for rider who have already try recent sport bike as GSX-R 750/1000, CBR929/954 or even a CBR600RR and who attack on curve
, then try to do the same with a S-Hawk... they quickly understand!! If the VTR front end suspension seem to be ok for you, great!! you will save a lot of money!
For more demanding rider there is some lack on the VTR suspension that are quickly identifiable... that's it!So, enjoy you S-Hawk and keep your money for some other mods as a undertail or some nice pipes
Or if you would like to know what we are complaining about, do exactly what Doug said and you will know... Cheers
06-28-2005, 01:10 PM
#4
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I don't think you should apply any fix unless you can identify an actual weakness. If you find it works well for you, then it does.
I went with heavier springs, lighter fork oil, and a slightly higher oil level and I've been pretty satisfied. The back shock is poor, but not so poor as to justify an $800 fix (to me.)
In any event, I'd identified a problem I wanted to fix.
I went with heavier springs, lighter fork oil, and a slightly higher oil level and I've been pretty satisfied. The back shock is poor, but not so poor as to justify an $800 fix (to me.)
In any event, I'd identified a problem I wanted to fix.
06-28-2005, 07:40 PM
#5
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
I respect the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality! Since I agree I've had El Cheapo suspension, the S-Hawk seems Jedi-ninja-like to me ('course). Without riding an RC51 or GSXR-1000 then I probably won't notice any faults, and maybe learning to adjust to the existing "improvement" and limitations might be good as ignorance can be bliss.
Still, I am trying to think how the suspension might be different in terms of cars (apples and oranges agreed, but still fruits). I own a Pontaic Firehawk with upgraded Billstien suspension package. Previously I owned a V6 bare-bones-base Firebird. I had noticed that in turns, there was very limited body-lean, even at violently high speeds, but in sacrifice ride comfort was sacrificed quite a bit.
I suspect by switching the forks, the bike will probably grip better but I might lose my fillings on the off-road-like quality of Denver's roads. Already I feel every bump and groove at stock settings front, ultra-soft rear.
This might be a Pandora's Box for me, perhaps not to open unless I dive into a lot more track-days.
Still, I am trying to think how the suspension might be different in terms of cars (apples and oranges agreed, but still fruits). I own a Pontaic Firehawk with upgraded Billstien suspension package. Previously I owned a V6 bare-bones-base Firebird. I had noticed that in turns, there was very limited body-lean, even at violently high speeds, but in sacrifice ride comfort was sacrificed quite a bit.
I suspect by switching the forks, the bike will probably grip better but I might lose my fillings on the off-road-like quality of Denver's roads. Already I feel every bump and groove at stock settings front, ultra-soft rear.
This might be a Pandora's Box for me, perhaps not to open unless I dive into a lot more track-days.
06-28-2005, 09:59 PM
#6
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
Forks were the first thing to get done on mine, and that was after 2000kms from brand new.
I weight 80kg (176Lb) and ride a mix of everything, but even rolling up a driveway (the lip from the road here is about an inch high) would cause the fork to bottom with a rather bad whack with the standard forks.
I took the bike back to the dealer but found that this was normal.
Whilst this is comfy for touring, it didnt suit aussie road conditions where bumpy road would cause this same problem.
Where this become a safety issue for any rider is under heavy braking.
Once you use up that travel say during an emergency stop and you hit a bump with no more (or very little) travel, you will lose traction. This alone should be the sole reaason for having your forks perform well.
Before this I rode a ZXR750 for 10 years that is renowned for having one of the most solid and planted front ends in the business. On this bike I had been doing regular track days since owning it, which adds up to quite a few sessions ! You also learn how good a front end can be and the difference it makes to your bikes performance.
The difference between that and the VTR was so huge it was scary.
With the equivalent of $130US for new springs and the standard valves revalved the bike feels so much more stable and confidence inspiring. I know it will not bottom out, no matter how hard i brake. Before I had this change done, I had my bike get into a tankslapper that came close to putting me off the bike in a big way. Since then I have not had anything close. I am convinced that the forks are too soft to be safe on a motorcycle that most of us will ride at a decent pace and will crack that throttle open at least once in its life.
The bike feels totally different now, and can be pushed so much harder than with standard forks (but I have made a few other mods here as well) and that suits my choice of riding.
I weight 80kg (176Lb) and ride a mix of everything, but even rolling up a driveway (the lip from the road here is about an inch high) would cause the fork to bottom with a rather bad whack with the standard forks.
I took the bike back to the dealer but found that this was normal.
Whilst this is comfy for touring, it didnt suit aussie road conditions where bumpy road would cause this same problem.
Where this become a safety issue for any rider is under heavy braking.
Once you use up that travel say during an emergency stop and you hit a bump with no more (or very little) travel, you will lose traction. This alone should be the sole reaason for having your forks perform well.
Before this I rode a ZXR750 for 10 years that is renowned for having one of the most solid and planted front ends in the business. On this bike I had been doing regular track days since owning it, which adds up to quite a few sessions ! You also learn how good a front end can be and the difference it makes to your bikes performance.
The difference between that and the VTR was so huge it was scary.
With the equivalent of $130US for new springs and the standard valves revalved the bike feels so much more stable and confidence inspiring. I know it will not bottom out, no matter how hard i brake. Before I had this change done, I had my bike get into a tankslapper that came close to putting me off the bike in a big way. Since then I have not had anything close. I am convinced that the forks are too soft to be safe on a motorcycle that most of us will ride at a decent pace and will crack that throttle open at least once in its life.
The bike feels totally different now, and can be pushed so much harder than with standard forks (but I have made a few other mods here as well) and that suits my choice of riding.
06-29-2005, 06:04 AM
#7
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
The factory suspension is underspring. It is setup for a 160 lb rider. As a compromise, it comes from the factory overdamped. The stiff feeling on your car comes from the stiffer shocks, not the springs.
When you put in stiffer springs, they are able to do the work that they are supposed to as opposed to the factory springs. Instead of the forks trying to compress 4" eash time you hit a pothole they may only compress 2".
The speed at which they compress is controlled by the compression damping, which from the factory is too stiff. Without doing anything else, the springs make a huge difference. Drilling a relief hole in the cartridge will take care of the overdamping and make the ride feel more comfortable.
It's kinda complicated and hard to explain. After I changed my springs and put in the GV my bike doesn't dive under braking or bottom out going over bumps like RR tracks anymore. The ride is smoother and at the same time more planted.
06-30-2005, 06:43 PM
#9
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
I agree, I'm 185 lbs and have never bottomed out, even in accidental deep potholes. I left the bike at factory settings and have never had any problems. I will admit there is room for improvement, but lets be honest, if you want a race bike buy an RC51.
06-30-2005, 07:19 PM
#10
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
Why buy an rc51 if you can spend less money and then make it your own project that you put heart and soul into. Then bring it to the track and bitch slap an rc51!
Not to mention I just like the looks of semi-naked for my bike.
Not to mention I just like the looks of semi-naked for my bike.
07-14-2005, 07:45 PM
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Re: Suspension not satisfactory?
As I read through past threads...some will come alive like this one...
I weigh 175 lbs and I have bottomed out my forks more in the last 2 weeks than I dare to count and I dont like it!!!!
When I got my SH.. two lines were showing on the preload and damping was set hard on front and rear.... the result was numbing hands in 10 minutes on the freeway....
I backed off the preload to 4 lines showing and went soft on the damping... the numbing stopped but now feel mushy in the turns and dives pretty hard on braking. Not too happy.
I read how to tune your suspension here....
http://webpages.charter.net/gnemish/
This seams quite easy, but I dont know if I have the time or 'feel' of it yet. There is a shop here that will dial your suspension for you for $25 and was told my local riders that its worth it....
whats your opion.... pay or do it myself in time....
thanks
I weigh 175 lbs and I have bottomed out my forks more in the last 2 weeks than I dare to count and I dont like it!!!!
When I got my SH.. two lines were showing on the preload and damping was set hard on front and rear.... the result was numbing hands in 10 minutes on the freeway....
I backed off the preload to 4 lines showing and went soft on the damping... the numbing stopped but now feel mushy in the turns and dives pretty hard on braking. Not too happy.
I read how to tune your suspension here....
http://webpages.charter.net/gnemish/
This seams quite easy, but I dont know if I have the time or 'feel' of it yet. There is a shop here that will dial your suspension for you for $25 and was told my local riders that its worth it....
whats your opion.... pay or do it myself in time....
thanks
07-14-2005, 09:03 PM
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THANKS!!!
After looking at it.. I am VERY close to that with the 4 lines showing and only .5 turns out on the forks.... they suggest 1 turn out.... this would be softer than I have set now.... so it would make it worse... right?
Question ... may be a stupid one... on the damping screw.... do I set it all the way to hard.. then back it off one turn?
After looking at it.. I am VERY close to that with the 4 lines showing and only .5 turns out on the forks.... they suggest 1 turn out.... this would be softer than I have set now.... so it would make it worse... right?
Question ... may be a stupid one... on the damping screw.... do I set it all the way to hard.. then back it off one turn?
07-15-2005, 06:44 AM
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What you need to remember is that you are controlling reboud with that screw, not compression. To set rebound properly, back it all the way to soft and then compress the bike. You want it to come up as fast as possible, but still under control. That means up and stop, not up and top out then bounce.
For me that wound up being 1 full turn, but I also don't have a stock setup any longer.
All the problems you describe would be taken care of with new springs and oil. And if you are going to tear into the forks then why not put GoldValves in them?
For me that wound up being 1 full turn, but I also don't have a stock setup any longer.
All the problems you describe would be taken care of with new springs and oil. And if you are going to tear into the forks then why not put GoldValves in them?
07-15-2005, 06:47 AM
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thanks....
Now another stupid question.... when you 'back it off all the way' .. is there a chance of the screw coming out?
I really never got into this until now and dont want to screw it up...
thanks again...
Now another stupid question.... when you 'back it off all the way' .. is there a chance of the screw coming out?
I really never got into this until now and dont want to screw it up...
thanks again...
07-15-2005, 06:52 AM
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yeah... I hear ya... I want to get the race tech springs and GV's... but for now.. I have to adjust what I have.
Sorry for the 'noobie-like' questions.... but I gotta know... so I gotta ask..
thanks... I'll update after I tinker a bit today... I commute 150 miles round trip per day...
BTW.... Im originally from Scranton, PA 8)
Sorry for the 'noobie-like' questions.... but I gotta know... so I gotta ask..
thanks... I'll update after I tinker a bit today... I commute 150 miles round trip per day...
BTW.... Im originally from Scranton, PA 8)
07-15-2005, 06:56 AM
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07-15-2005, 03:27 PM
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I have to again say thanks.... I readjusted the preload and damping AFTER I forked out the cash for a new 208ZR up front... MAN... the difference a good tire will make on a bike.... go figure... lol
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