Trackday Crash - Hard parts and lean angle
09-14-2007, 12:59 PM
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Trackday Crash - Hard parts and lean angle
I finally low sided at the track. It was Buttonwillow on Monday the 10th of September. Temperature was nice, as this was the second session of B group (10:30am) it was probably 80-85 F. Visibility was good. My tire pressure (cold) was around 30 psi on Dunlop Qualifiers. And it was prpobably the 5th or 6th lap of the session. The bike is a 98 Honda VTR 1000 with stock rear suspension, and racetech springs in the forks. Stock rearsets, and low mount Yosh RS3 Stainless exhaust.
I had recently passed a couple guys who were holding me back, and I was riding like I didn't want them to catch me. I had been dragging my pegs/toe sliders, and my knees around various corners. I went in to turn 2 a little hot, but not terrible. As I passed the first apex, I made a slight lean angle adjustment, and as quick as can be I was sliding next to my bike. From the feel I got from the release, I felt like the tires were holding very well, and were not the problem. It felt more like the knee and peg were scraping, then all of a sudden the pipe was scraping and that was when the rear released. The bike spun away from me, bounced over the curb, and we both slip out in to the dirt.
What I took from it and various pictures of myself riding, is that I don't get far enough off of the bike. I am a short rider, and feel that my outside foot almost comes off of the peg when I am hanging off, so there might be a limitation of the bike/equipment that I need to work out.
I am hunting for high mount pipes, and possibly rear sets to give me a little more clearance. Going into this day, I knew that dragging the peg was possible, but I really didn't think I would put the pipe on the ground. Now I know that the pipe and pegs contribute to the low clearance complaints that I hear from some people.
Pictures here: http://picasaweb.google.com/dgharmon/Trackday910
I had recently passed a couple guys who were holding me back, and I was riding like I didn't want them to catch me. I had been dragging my pegs/toe sliders, and my knees around various corners. I went in to turn 2 a little hot, but not terrible. As I passed the first apex, I made a slight lean angle adjustment, and as quick as can be I was sliding next to my bike. From the feel I got from the release, I felt like the tires were holding very well, and were not the problem. It felt more like the knee and peg were scraping, then all of a sudden the pipe was scraping and that was when the rear released. The bike spun away from me, bounced over the curb, and we both slip out in to the dirt.
What I took from it and various pictures of myself riding, is that I don't get far enough off of the bike. I am a short rider, and feel that my outside foot almost comes off of the peg when I am hanging off, so there might be a limitation of the bike/equipment that I need to work out.
I am hunting for high mount pipes, and possibly rear sets to give me a little more clearance. Going into this day, I knew that dragging the peg was possible, but I really didn't think I would put the pipe on the ground. Now I know that the pipe and pegs contribute to the low clearance complaints that I hear from some people.
Pictures here: http://picasaweb.google.com/dgharmon/Trackday910
09-14-2007, 01:05 PM
#2
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An aftermarket rearset and high mount pipes would solve the clearance problem, but it sounds like there was probably more to it than that. The rearset might also help in getting off the bike further.
09-14-2007, 01:19 PM
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I fully agree. My only concern with the rear sets involve having a rigid peg. If the stock foot pegs were rigid, I would have crashed a long time ago. Any body have a recommendation for nice rearsets?
09-14-2007, 02:11 PM
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you may want to look at your anchor points. i don't find it useful to have my outside foot on the peg while hanging off. i rotate my toes outwards so my heel is in toward the bike, my anchor point is my whole lower leg not my foot. some people like to anchor their elbow on the tank but i find that the clipon position & my riding style doesn't lend itself to using it.
rear sets will/can raise the pegs which would help. rigid or not you need to have a consistant position for hanging off and use your knee to gauge the lean angle. oh sure it's fun to drag it around the track but the purpose is to deck your knee and by that know where the hard parts are.
tim
btw: i had to laugh because our beloved hawk isn't the fastest bike out their but i too get pissed by those liter bikes that toss out the anchor in the corners only to blow by me in the straights - so i try to gap them which often gets my heart beating : )
rear sets will/can raise the pegs which would help. rigid or not you need to have a consistant position for hanging off and use your knee to gauge the lean angle. oh sure it's fun to drag it around the track but the purpose is to deck your knee and by that know where the hard parts are.
tim
btw: i had to laugh because our beloved hawk isn't the fastest bike out their but i too get pissed by those liter bikes that toss out the anchor in the corners only to blow by me in the straights - so i try to gap them which often gets my heart beating : )
09-14-2007, 02:20 PM
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BUTTONWILLOW
I take it you where running the track clockwise (normal configuration)...turn 2 is very easy to crash in ,chamber, low gear (superhawk with lots of torque) I have had a few nasty slides..exactly in the same spot..even got a instructor to follow me round and even got it to do a nice little slide for him...basically told me to go a gear lower and very slowly roll on power exiting that corner ...I know this info is alittle late...
Hope your bike is easliy fixed......
Hope your bike is easliy fixed......
09-14-2007, 05:00 PM
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Height really shouldn't be a problem as you could NOT be much shorter than me,(5'7"), and a couple of things you said made me think. 1)You said your toe sliders were dragging. To me that tells me that your feet were in the wrong position,(don't worry we've all done it), get your toes up on the pegs not the ***** of your feet. 2)You made a slight lean angle adjustment. This bike with stock shock does NOT like sudden adjustments no matter how slight. 3)You were already dragging pegs before it happened. If that was already happening then you should have asked a C/R to follow you and look at your body positioning because you probably weren't off the bike enough, don't worry about falling off, try to use your outside leg to hook the seat and outside arm leaning on the tank and it will help out. Not trying to sound like a know it all, just trying to pass on what I've learned.
As far as the rear sets are concerned, I have Harris solid peg rearsets and have never come close to scrapping them,(without actually crashing that is
), so I wouldn't worry about that.
I actually have lowmount pipes but used highmount hangers for more clearence and to be able to take off the rear caliper without it being in the way. You could just buy the hangers or even make your own.
As far as the rear sets are concerned, I have Harris solid peg rearsets and have never come close to scrapping them,(without actually crashing that is
), so I wouldn't worry about that. I actually have lowmount pipes but used highmount hangers for more clearence and to be able to take off the rear caliper without it being in the way. You could just buy the hangers or even make your own.
09-14-2007, 05:01 PM
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it looks like your far enough off the bike but your not opening up your hips enough. so your peg and foot are touching down before your knee. imo
good luck getting the bike back together. and go for a ride to make sure it's all right before you go back to the track. I can tell you from experance that getting all the way to the track and finding out something small is missing and you can't ride.
good luck getting the bike back together. and go for a ride to make sure it's all right before you go back to the track. I can tell you from experance that getting all the way to the track and finding out something small is missing and you can't ride.
09-14-2007, 05:07 PM
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I don't know, it looks to me like the upper body is still pretty much centered and not to the side or low enough. I've always been told to get your head down and over and you should be looking where the mirror use to be almost like you're trying to bite your forearm. The lower body looks like he has maybe one cheek off the seat but not much more than that.
09-21-2007, 04:54 PM
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All of this is very good information. And I agree with a lot of the assessments. I don't get off enough. The pictures are from laps prior to the crash so I was just getting warmed up, I don't think my knee even touched down in the first session (I was trying to smoothly progress through the day, but I let the traffic get to me). We were actually running Counter-Clockwise, and I lost the rear right after the 1st apex, before diving in to the cambered second apex.
Review of the crash:
Was hanging off (not quite enough), trailing off the break/engine breaking only when I went down. Ball of foot was on peg (but a little outboard), knee was down. I had thrown it in to the turn fairly rapidly, and just prior to falling off, I remember the feeling of the lean angle going from knee down and fairly steep (because I wasn't hanging off enough, I must have been leaned over quite a bit), to peg dragging (and toe slider, thanks Oxtar Ti sliders!), and very quickly I heard more hard parts dragging than I was used to and then all the soft parts were dragging as my bike swung away from me. I was actually quite excited by the whole event. While I hated to see my bike (just finished the graphics, wind screen mods) in shambles; it was very exciting to slide off the track, lots of adrenaline involved with finding the limit I guess.
I am shorter than you, 22. I stand around 5'6.4995" ish.
I have already found and bought some Leo Vince High mounts (sorry if I was bidding against anyone here!), frame sliders (I may go down again, the track is FUN!), LH handlebar, Clutch fluid reservoir, LH plastic, and LH turn signal. So I am going to be back in action with in a couple of weeks. Which is good because I am going back to the track on October 18!
What I haven't bought yet:
Rearsets-I figured I should give modifying my body position a chance before I make the investment, but that was something I thought about from the very first time I took the VTR to the track.
Shock-I was talking with ICEBud about his Wilbers unit, since it has the ride height adjustment, and all the other goodies, but that would make my $800 repair bill up to a $1300 repair bill, and I can't swallow that quite yet. On that note though, does raising the rear help the handling of the Hawk? Would that necessitate the use of a stearing dampner?
Tank-It is hammered pretty bad, but holds fuel without any leaks. I think my range might have decreased from 100 miles to 75 miles! "My dad has some tools, we should be able to hammer it right out!" J.S. FT@RH
Again, all of the input is greatly appreciated, keep it coming.
Review of the crash:
Was hanging off (not quite enough), trailing off the break/engine breaking only when I went down. Ball of foot was on peg (but a little outboard), knee was down. I had thrown it in to the turn fairly rapidly, and just prior to falling off, I remember the feeling of the lean angle going from knee down and fairly steep (because I wasn't hanging off enough, I must have been leaned over quite a bit), to peg dragging (and toe slider, thanks Oxtar Ti sliders!), and very quickly I heard more hard parts dragging than I was used to and then all the soft parts were dragging as my bike swung away from me. I was actually quite excited by the whole event. While I hated to see my bike (just finished the graphics, wind screen mods) in shambles; it was very exciting to slide off the track, lots of adrenaline involved with finding the limit I guess.
I am shorter than you, 22. I stand around 5'6.4995" ish.
I have already found and bought some Leo Vince High mounts (sorry if I was bidding against anyone here!), frame sliders (I may go down again, the track is FUN!), LH handlebar, Clutch fluid reservoir, LH plastic, and LH turn signal. So I am going to be back in action with in a couple of weeks. Which is good because I am going back to the track on October 18!
What I haven't bought yet:
Rearsets-I figured I should give modifying my body position a chance before I make the investment, but that was something I thought about from the very first time I took the VTR to the track.
Shock-I was talking with ICEBud about his Wilbers unit, since it has the ride height adjustment, and all the other goodies, but that would make my $800 repair bill up to a $1300 repair bill, and I can't swallow that quite yet. On that note though, does raising the rear help the handling of the Hawk? Would that necessitate the use of a stearing dampner?
Tank-It is hammered pretty bad, but holds fuel without any leaks. I think my range might have decreased from 100 miles to 75 miles! "My dad has some tools, we should be able to hammer it right out!" J.S. FT@RH
Again, all of the input is greatly appreciated, keep it coming.
Last edited by fundgh; 09-21-2007 at 04:59 PM.
09-24-2007, 12:37 PM
#15
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Your knee is not out as far as it should be. Take another look at the pictures!! You need to get off the bike a little more and extend you knee out. Its not the bikes falt, it has enough clearance. You just found its limits.
You might want to think about going to a school and getting proper traning.
Good luck
You might want to think about going to a school and getting proper traning.
Good luck
10-06-2007, 09:54 AM
#16
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Location: San Jose
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one thing that I have to say about the VTR is that the rear shock provides horrible feedback on what the rear is doing. I had my suspension guru following me at Thill (Evolution Suspension 408-453-6386,shameless plug) and The rear was wallowing like crazy at a low B pace. We were doing the trackday together and I was really stuck at the laptime I was at and couldn't go anywhere as I could on my old 96 gixxer. The rear would be spinning up on exits and you couldn't really feel it at all. Just kinda had to dial it on and pray. It really needs a better shock for track duty.
10-06-2007, 05:03 PM
#17
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Might sound silly, but what was your throttle position like? Were you rolling on or were you letting out of it. I crashed 4 times last year because I wasn't in the gas and ended up tucking the front. When I used to do track days on my SH on a regular basis, my rear used to get all mushy in T1 at VIR when it had a stock rear shock. I raced it last weekend w/ a penske shock and it was a night and day difference. Start saving after you get the SH fixed and put a good shock on it. Oh- I've got a 5mm spacer for the rear in my toolbox I'll mail to you if you really want it until you get that Penske 
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