Getting frustrated with SEARCH
11-11-2011, 07:55 PM
#1
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Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Barrie, On
Posts: 24
Getting frustrated with SEARCH
Ok I have never claimed to be any mechanical guru and I am tring to look a few things up. I am trying to find out information about suspension setups and a online manual.
What I am looking for is how do I know what the results are when I stiffen or soften the rear shock,what the pros and cons are of doing it? Or why you would do it? Once the rear has been adjusted does that affect the front end of the bike and does that have to be changed as well? Isn't the stock setup the best setup? I don't know.... Never bothered with this on any of my other bikes.
When I type in suspension setup, shock setup, damperner setup or online manual I come up with pages and pages of all kinds of topics from buying new aftermarket shocks to turning something .09 to.05 (what ever that means) to fork oil and everything in between, but not what I am looking for in particular.
How do I narrow the search down so I am not bothering you all with the same repetitive questions you most likely have been ask several times or spending hours scrolling threw hundred's of threads?
Sorry for the rant
What I am looking for is how do I know what the results are when I stiffen or soften the rear shock,what the pros and cons are of doing it? Or why you would do it? Once the rear has been adjusted does that affect the front end of the bike and does that have to be changed as well? Isn't the stock setup the best setup? I don't know.... Never bothered with this on any of my other bikes.
When I type in suspension setup, shock setup, damperner setup or online manual I come up with pages and pages of all kinds of topics from buying new aftermarket shocks to turning something .09 to.05 (what ever that means) to fork oil and everything in between, but not what I am looking for in particular.
How do I narrow the search down so I am not bothering you all with the same repetitive questions you most likely have been ask several times or spending hours scrolling threw hundred's of threads?
Sorry for the rant
11-11-2011, 10:03 PM
#2
Senior Member
MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
I would adjust your shock to the lightest preload using the collar at the bottom. Then put 6mm shim on top under rear subframe. Next raise forks in triples 10mm and try that. do you know how to set rebound? Do you know what springs are in your fork tubes?
11-11-2011, 11:01 PM
#3
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Location: Lake View Terrace, CA
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Well before you start changing anything around, do you know how to set the sag?
Also what do you weigh, in your gear ready to go.
The first step is to set the sag and depending on your weight you might or might not be able to do this.
Also what do you weigh, in your gear ready to go.
The first step is to set the sag and depending on your weight you might or might not be able to do this.
11-12-2011, 06:07 AM
#5
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SuperSport
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 807
There's no suspension setup that works for everybody and even the experts can differ on the best setup for a particular bike and rider. There are some good articles on suspension setup on the sportrider magazine website by Andrew Trevitt. They will give you a good sense of the basics. Having a motorcycle in good repair with the wheels aligned and tires inflated properly is a starting point. After that, set sag as 8541Hawk says, take notes of your current settings, find a road that is either one of your favourites or is representative of the roads you ride, change one thing at a time, make notes and find the setup that works best for you.
11-12-2011, 06:12 AM
#6
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Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 5,072
+1 search how to set sag and do that first.
Settin sag
Settin sag
11-12-2011, 08:55 AM
#8
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Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Barrie, On
Posts: 24
Sweet thanks. I have a lot more reading to do on the topic. To answer some of the questions I am 6'1 and with all my gear on I weight about 220lbs. I have no Idea what springs are in my forks or what sag is or rebound is. Most of the roads where I live are all straight country road and have to travel at least an hour to get to any kind of twisties.
Don't get me wrong its not like I am a complete moron I can do some basic mechanical stuff to the bike. On my other bikes I have changed all the fluids, plugs, brake pads, tires, the list goes on but for some reason when it comes to suspension of a bike I can't seem to wrap my head around it.
I am going to check out that article in sport mag that was recommended and the sag link some else sent me. Also if anybody is interested a found a free shop manual PDF online if anybody is interested in the link
Don't get me wrong its not like I am a complete moron I can do some basic mechanical stuff to the bike. On my other bikes I have changed all the fluids, plugs, brake pads, tires, the list goes on but for some reason when it comes to suspension of a bike I can't seem to wrap my head around it.
I am going to check out that article in sport mag that was recommended and the sag link some else sent me. Also if anybody is interested a found a free shop manual PDF online if anybody is interested in the link
11-12-2011, 09:01 AM
#9
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Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Barrie, On
Posts: 24
11-12-2011, 10:13 AM
#10
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SuperBike
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Essex, UK
Posts: 1,707
VTR1000F Honda Service Manual OCR.pdf
I've removed restrictions and OCR'd the Honda VTR service manual into a text searchable PDF.
Also to help search this site as it's not good on characters less than 3 i.e R1, RR etc. use googles site search. Google Site Search
Enter https://www.superhawkforum.com as the URL. And your query earch term
I've removed restrictions and OCR'd the Honda VTR service manual into a text searchable PDF.
Also to help search this site as it's not good on characters less than 3 i.e R1, RR etc. use googles site search. Google Site Search
Enter https://www.superhawkforum.com as the URL. And your query earch term
11-12-2011, 10:54 AM
#11
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MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
a simple way to think of sag is to lift up the rear by the subframe while your standing next to it, and then gently release and it should drop a little bit, like free play. Rob the Drummer who lives near me, just bought his bike and he's about 220 also. The PO had the rear spring set at full hard preload, that is the spring compressed as much as possible by that collar at the bottom. At this setting, there was no sag or drop when i left the weight of the rear back down. That spring was set at totally stiff. We jacked his up 6mm rear and down 10 in front and he's happy camper.
I found it a bit difficult to feel rebound on the rear until got frustrated and discovered my present method, which is much easier and obvious. Throw your leg over the tank careful not to hit the mirror and sit on the bike backwards. Put you sidestand up with your foot and reach down with your hands to the rear pegs/muffler brackets bracket(gloves if you want). From this position, you can push abruptly start compressing the rear shock with plenty of force. Let it rebound and you should feel and see a slight resistance. When there is no rebound, the compressed shock will return just as quickly as you compressed it. You can start with full rebound setting if you can't feel anything, then back the adjuster off a notch at a time until you learn the feeling. I set rebound at the least detectable amt of resistance because when I add a little more than this, i can notice the slowness of return over certain bumps. I like the rebound to return as quickly as possible, but with some resistance or control.
I ride the same roads frequently, so I know what feels right to me and I would recommend that you have some test roads for this. Put adjuster tools in you pocket or tank bag and ride your test roads and adjust and try again until you're satisfied. Carry these tools for a while because sometimes you need to ride it for a while before you can feel something you don't like; and it helps to go further(like too much rebound) so that you learn to recognize what wrong feels like. To me, it helps to know not only what is right, but what is not right as a means of clearing the doubt with suspension settings.
Same thing applies to the front where you stand beside the bike and pull up on the bars and let it drop. If it drops a lot, add preload adjustment until it drops at least an inch when you release lift. Note, there will be more sag at the front than rear where you only need a slight noticeable drop of 1/4".
If you have the time and money, esp if you're a wannabe racer, I would replace the rear shock with a JD special and have him do the forks at the same time. That way you know you're set up for your weight and riding style. If you don't have the means, you can do some simple mods to the front yourself(springs, shims, oil, damping rod mod, etc).
also, I would shim the rear shock 6 to 10 mm, mine's up 10mm plus the added height of the 190x55 Q2, so maybe 20+mm up at the rear, and 10mm down in the front, and this geometry works well for me.
I found it a bit difficult to feel rebound on the rear until got frustrated and discovered my present method, which is much easier and obvious. Throw your leg over the tank careful not to hit the mirror and sit on the bike backwards. Put you sidestand up with your foot and reach down with your hands to the rear pegs/muffler brackets bracket(gloves if you want). From this position, you can push abruptly start compressing the rear shock with plenty of force. Let it rebound and you should feel and see a slight resistance. When there is no rebound, the compressed shock will return just as quickly as you compressed it. You can start with full rebound setting if you can't feel anything, then back the adjuster off a notch at a time until you learn the feeling. I set rebound at the least detectable amt of resistance because when I add a little more than this, i can notice the slowness of return over certain bumps. I like the rebound to return as quickly as possible, but with some resistance or control.
I ride the same roads frequently, so I know what feels right to me and I would recommend that you have some test roads for this. Put adjuster tools in you pocket or tank bag and ride your test roads and adjust and try again until you're satisfied. Carry these tools for a while because sometimes you need to ride it for a while before you can feel something you don't like; and it helps to go further(like too much rebound) so that you learn to recognize what wrong feels like. To me, it helps to know not only what is right, but what is not right as a means of clearing the doubt with suspension settings.
Same thing applies to the front where you stand beside the bike and pull up on the bars and let it drop. If it drops a lot, add preload adjustment until it drops at least an inch when you release lift. Note, there will be more sag at the front than rear where you only need a slight noticeable drop of 1/4".
If you have the time and money, esp if you're a wannabe racer, I would replace the rear shock with a JD special and have him do the forks at the same time. That way you know you're set up for your weight and riding style. If you don't have the means, you can do some simple mods to the front yourself(springs, shims, oil, damping rod mod, etc).
also, I would shim the rear shock 6 to 10 mm, mine's up 10mm plus the added height of the 190x55 Q2, so maybe 20+mm up at the rear, and 10mm down in the front, and this geometry works well for me.
11-12-2011, 11:51 AM
#12
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Squid
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Barrie, On
Posts: 24
wow that is very very helpful thanks. Dumb question if the rear shock is set at it hardest setting with little sag does that make the bike more **** to low siding in a corner cause the down force isn't there?
11-12-2011, 01:15 PM
#13
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Gettysburg, Pa
Posts: 5,072
a simple way to think of sag is to lift up the rear by the subframe while your standing next to it, and then gently release and it should drop a little bit, like free play. Rob the Drummer who lives near me, just bought his bike and he's about 220 also. The PO had the rear spring set at full hard preload, that is the spring compressed as much as possible by that collar at the bottom. At this setting, there was no sag or drop when i left the weight of the rear back down. That spring was set at totally stiff. We jacked his up 6mm rear and down 10 in front and he's happy camper.
I found it a bit difficult to feel rebound on the rear until got frustrated and discovered my present method, which is much easier and obvious. Throw your leg over the tank careful not to hit the mirror and sit on the bike backwards. Put you sidestand up with your foot and reach down with your hands to the rear pegs/muffler brackets bracket(gloves if you want). From this position, you can push abruptly start compressing the rear shock with plenty of force. Let it rebound and you should feel and see a slight resistance. When there is no rebound, the compressed shock will return just as quickly as you compressed it. You can start with full rebound setting if you can't feel anything, then back the adjuster off a notch at a time until you learn the feeling. I set rebound at the least detectable amt of resistance because when I add a little more than this, i can notice the slowness of return over certain bumps. I like the rebound to return as quickly as possible, but with some resistance or control.
I ride the same roads frequently, so I know what feels right to me and I would recommend that you have some test roads for this. Put adjuster tools in you pocket or tank bag and ride your test roads and adjust and try again until you're satisfied. Carry these tools for a while because sometimes you need to ride it for a while before you can feel something you don't like; and it helps to go further(like too much rebound) so that you learn to recognize what wrong feels like. To me, it helps to know not only what is right, but what is not right as a means of clearing the doubt with suspension settings.
Same thing applies to the front where you stand beside the bike and pull up on the bars and let it drop. If it drops a lot, add preload adjustment until it drops at least an inch when you release lift. Note, there will be more sag at the front than rear where you only need a slight noticeable drop of 1/4".
If you have the time and money, esp if you're a wannabe racer, I would replace the rear shock with a JD special and have him do the forks at the same time. That way you know you're set up for your weight and riding style. If you don't have the means, you can do some simple mods to the front yourself(springs, shims, oil, damping rod mod, etc).
also, I would shim the rear shock 6 to 10 mm, mine's up 10mm plus the added height of the 190x55 Q2, so maybe 20+mm up at the rear, and 10mm down in the front, and this geometry works well for me.
I found it a bit difficult to feel rebound on the rear until got frustrated and discovered my present method, which is much easier and obvious. Throw your leg over the tank careful not to hit the mirror and sit on the bike backwards. Put you sidestand up with your foot and reach down with your hands to the rear pegs/muffler brackets bracket(gloves if you want). From this position, you can push abruptly start compressing the rear shock with plenty of force. Let it rebound and you should feel and see a slight resistance. When there is no rebound, the compressed shock will return just as quickly as you compressed it. You can start with full rebound setting if you can't feel anything, then back the adjuster off a notch at a time until you learn the feeling. I set rebound at the least detectable amt of resistance because when I add a little more than this, i can notice the slowness of return over certain bumps. I like the rebound to return as quickly as possible, but with some resistance or control.
I ride the same roads frequently, so I know what feels right to me and I would recommend that you have some test roads for this. Put adjuster tools in you pocket or tank bag and ride your test roads and adjust and try again until you're satisfied. Carry these tools for a while because sometimes you need to ride it for a while before you can feel something you don't like; and it helps to go further(like too much rebound) so that you learn to recognize what wrong feels like. To me, it helps to know not only what is right, but what is not right as a means of clearing the doubt with suspension settings.
Same thing applies to the front where you stand beside the bike and pull up on the bars and let it drop. If it drops a lot, add preload adjustment until it drops at least an inch when you release lift. Note, there will be more sag at the front than rear where you only need a slight noticeable drop of 1/4".
If you have the time and money, esp if you're a wannabe racer, I would replace the rear shock with a JD special and have him do the forks at the same time. That way you know you're set up for your weight and riding style. If you don't have the means, you can do some simple mods to the front yourself(springs, shims, oil, damping rod mod, etc).
also, I would shim the rear shock 6 to 10 mm, mine's up 10mm plus the added height of the 190x55 Q2, so maybe 20+mm up at the rear, and 10mm down in the front, and this geometry works well for me.
Sit on your bike backwards? That's a first.Ohlins tech setting sag This vid is better than the first one I posted.
Don't be intimidated, it's not hard at all. You'll need a friend though. To get the fully extended number, lean your bike on it's sidestand just enough to top out suspension travel.
Last edited by Wolverine; 11-12-2011 at 01:22 PM.
11-12-2011, 01:50 PM
#14
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lake View Terrace, CA
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Well just to be clear, the suggested suspension changed do work, there is the draw back of dragging the header. Though all these kinds of changes should be left until you have the stock set up working correctly first.
Now the quick answer to your question, improper suspension set up can lead to both high sides and low sides...
With your weight you might be able to hit the sag numbers on the rear but will not come close on the front.
If you actually want the bike to work, your best bet would be to give Jamie a call and find out what it will cost to rework the forks and either rework the stock shock or maybe a F4 shock, if it is in your budget. Though always spend as much as you can afford on suspension, it is well worth it.
Now for sag. What you are doing is setting the suspension 1\4 of the way down in it stroke when you are sitting on the bike in your gear.
The reason for this is so the tire can track the road when you go over a dip or a hole.
The videos posted show you how to measure correctly but you will need 2 helpers to get the job done if you don't have a front wheel chock.
So what to set it at. the "rule of thumb" for a street bike (a race bike is set up different but will beat the **** out of you on the street so we'll leave those out for now) is 25mm sag in the rear and 30-35mm sag in the front.
The SuperHawk has a bit more rear wheel travel so the 1\4 stroke number is 30mm but anywhere in the 25-30mm range will work well for the rear sag.
For the front anywhere in the 30-35mm range works well.
These numbers are all just a base line setting as the final numbers depend on your riding style.
As for setting the rebound, you will see and hear of many different methods. It is all based on "feel" and you will need to learn how to feel what is happening.
In simple terms what you are aiming for is to have the suspension rise back to the top of its stroke and stop after it has been compressed.
If it tops out and then bounces, you need more rebound damping.
If if slows down and kind of stops for a second before it tops out, you need less rebound damping.
So the first step is to get the proper springs and valving in your suspension. Once again, your best bet would be to give Jamie a call.
Then you can get the stock set up working. If you add a fork brace, the suspension actually works pretty good until you really start to push the bike.
After you get to that point, then you can think about messing with geometry changes.
It's just the safest way to go IMHO.
Now the quick answer to your question, improper suspension set up can lead to both high sides and low sides...
With your weight you might be able to hit the sag numbers on the rear but will not come close on the front.
If you actually want the bike to work, your best bet would be to give Jamie a call and find out what it will cost to rework the forks and either rework the stock shock or maybe a F4 shock, if it is in your budget. Though always spend as much as you can afford on suspension, it is well worth it.
Now for sag. What you are doing is setting the suspension 1\4 of the way down in it stroke when you are sitting on the bike in your gear.
The reason for this is so the tire can track the road when you go over a dip or a hole.
The videos posted show you how to measure correctly but you will need 2 helpers to get the job done if you don't have a front wheel chock.
So what to set it at. the "rule of thumb" for a street bike (a race bike is set up different but will beat the **** out of you on the street so we'll leave those out for now) is 25mm sag in the rear and 30-35mm sag in the front.
The SuperHawk has a bit more rear wheel travel so the 1\4 stroke number is 30mm but anywhere in the 25-30mm range will work well for the rear sag.
For the front anywhere in the 30-35mm range works well.
These numbers are all just a base line setting as the final numbers depend on your riding style.
As for setting the rebound, you will see and hear of many different methods. It is all based on "feel" and you will need to learn how to feel what is happening.
In simple terms what you are aiming for is to have the suspension rise back to the top of its stroke and stop after it has been compressed.
If it tops out and then bounces, you need more rebound damping.
If if slows down and kind of stops for a second before it tops out, you need less rebound damping.
So the first step is to get the proper springs and valving in your suspension. Once again, your best bet would be to give Jamie a call.
Then you can get the stock set up working. If you add a fork brace, the suspension actually works pretty good until you really start to push the bike.
After you get to that point, then you can think about messing with geometry changes.
It's just the safest way to go IMHO.
11-12-2011, 02:42 PM
#15
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MotoGP
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
Sit on your bike backwards? That's a first.Ohlins tech setting sag This vid is better than the first one I posted.
Don't be intimidated, it's not hard at all. You'll need a friend though. To get the fully extended number, lean your bike on it's sidestand just enough to top out suspension travel.
Try it. then evaluate. you can really feel the the shock as opposed to standing there pushing down on the seat. No comparison.
11-12-2011, 02:46 PM
#16
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: altoona, pa
Posts: 2,934
If you set it at the softest preload setting, sit on the bike backwards as previously described, sidestand up, rebound set at zero, you should not be able to bottom the shock no matter how vigorous you compress it. If you feel it's bottoming with a detectable thump, it's likely your chain at full stretch. So you would have to adjust it a little looser, then try again.
Then compress again several hard pushes and if it feels fairly soft/mushy, then adjust the preload another notch harder. After you get, the spring where it feels good to you, start to dial in rebound. Go until you can feel and see resistance and then back off to the slightest detectable amt of resistance. This will minimize rebound restriction, yet avoid pogoing, and allow the shock to return as fast as it can with some control.
Last edited by nath981; 11-12-2011 at 04:49 PM.
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