Tach not working and cam timing question
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Squid
Squid
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 85
From: Leicester MA
Tach not working and cam timing question
OK so I got my manual CCT's in and re-timed the front cams as they were out from the tensioner going. The valve clearances were right in spec so nothing bent there. I followed the manual and they say to line up the marks (FI, FE, etc) so they're level with the head. I did this but it would seem they were both about 1/2 tooth off (with tensioners tight). I didn't see any spec for number of pins between marks like I've seen with other bikes. I had the same issue with both the front and rear being 1/2 tooth or so off. Now that she's up and running she doesn't idle smoothly on the front cyl at all but seems to be good off idle. I set up the carbs according to the guide here. The bike has 15k on it and Yosh slip-ons that I de-baffled and re-packed. The bike also has a K&N air filter and I installed new plugs when I had the valve covers off. I have yet to sync the carbs or do the TPS setting mod but I would expect it to run a little better than it does.
Also the tach is inop so I can't set the idle speed properly. I've checked according to the manual and I have battery voltage between GND and black/brown and I get battery voltage. But from yellow/green to GND I get like 0.09VDC when I should have battery voltage. Anyone have any ideas on either of these problems? thanks in advance.
Also the tach is inop so I can't set the idle speed properly. I've checked according to the manual and I have battery voltage between GND and black/brown and I get battery voltage. But from yellow/green to GND I get like 0.09VDC when I should have battery voltage. Anyone have any ideas on either of these problems? thanks in advance.
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,252
From: boston
Ok well I'll start...
You made a lot of changes at once, which is hard to get perfect on carb'd bikes, you will need tweaking to get it right...
As far as the CCT's are concerned, I'm happy to hear you removed the valve covers to do this. When you have the timing marks in place did you verify on each respective cylinder that it was in fact on TDC Comp, you can tell by the cam lobe position. There are also timing marks on the cam gears.
Second of all the Hawks "carb setup" is for a factory motor running the factory air filter, you will not be able to get the K&N to run right with this setup, that will take some serious tweaking to get right or close to right but has been done. K&N's seem to be the hardest air filter for most people to tune correctly (not talking about you wolverine
). Atleast you have a solid baseline to start with.
If your main issue is idle, you need to sync, any time you make any changes to your carbs let alone change everything on your carbs you need to sync. Carbs being out of sync will be most noticeable at idle.
As for the not being able to set idle without a tach, untrue. once you have your carbs synced and have a smooth idle you can drop your idle down until it starts laboring (dont know a better word) then slowly bring it up until there are no issues. Idle drop tests can be done by ear as well, a tach just makes it visual... there is more to syncing your carbs then that(read the manual), but this can all be done by ear and feel... trust me, I havent had a working tach for the last 4ish years.
As for the tach itself, could have a short somewhere or a dead ICU...
You made a lot of changes at once, which is hard to get perfect on carb'd bikes, you will need tweaking to get it right...
As far as the CCT's are concerned, I'm happy to hear you removed the valve covers to do this. When you have the timing marks in place did you verify on each respective cylinder that it was in fact on TDC Comp, you can tell by the cam lobe position. There are also timing marks on the cam gears.
Second of all the Hawks "carb setup" is for a factory motor running the factory air filter, you will not be able to get the K&N to run right with this setup, that will take some serious tweaking to get right or close to right but has been done. K&N's seem to be the hardest air filter for most people to tune correctly (not talking about you wolverine
). Atleast you have a solid baseline to start with.If your main issue is idle, you need to sync, any time you make any changes to your carbs let alone change everything on your carbs you need to sync. Carbs being out of sync will be most noticeable at idle.
As for the not being able to set idle without a tach, untrue. once you have your carbs synced and have a smooth idle you can drop your idle down until it starts laboring (dont know a better word) then slowly bring it up until there are no issues. Idle drop tests can be done by ear as well, a tach just makes it visual... there is more to syncing your carbs then that(read the manual), but this can all be done by ear and feel... trust me, I havent had a working tach for the last 4ish years.
As for the tach itself, could have a short somewhere or a dead ICU...
Senior Member
SuperBike
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,252
From: boston
My recommendation, throw a stock filter in there, sync, and sort out all running issues, then try and tune a K&N...
If the only electrical issue you have with the tach is not having power to the one connection on the back of the cluster it would be easy enough to jump power from one of the other connections on the back of the cluster... if you still have an issue disassemble the cluster and see if theres anything fried on the circuit board....
If the only electrical issue you have with the tach is not having power to the one connection on the back of the cluster it would be easy enough to jump power from one of the other connections on the back of the cluster... if you still have an issue disassemble the cluster and see if theres anything fried on the circuit board....
VTR virgin
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 447
From: Auckland, New Zealand
OK so I got my manual CCT's in and re-timed the front cams as they were out from the tensioner going. The valve clearances were right in spec so nothing bent there. I followed the manual and they say to line up the marks (FI, FE, etc) so they're level with the head. I did this but it would seem they were both about 1/2 tooth off (with tensioners tight). I didn't see any spec for number of pins between marks like I've seen with other bikes. I had the same issue with both the front and rear being 1/2 tooth or so off. .
Some feedback from the other forum assured me that this was normal and due to cam chain stretch (my VTR has 44000 miles). I've put 2000 miles on the bike and its running great,so I don't think your idle issue is related to the cam timing. More likely you just need to balance the carbs, I found resetting the TPS also made for a more "lively" response off idle.
Best of luck.
Thread Starter
Member
Squid
Squid
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 85
From: Leicester MA
Cadbury - mine look just as far off as yours so it must be OK. I just wish there was a pin count like other manufacturer's use to make sure the cams are aligned to each other properly.
I took the valve covers off because the front CCT failed on the PO and I need to be sure the valves were OK. Luckily all the clearances were spot on so it would appear the chain just jumped on the cams as the timing was way the hell off.
I just ordered the factory vacuum needle from Honda so once that comes in I'll install it and get the carbs synched up. While I'm in there I'll put the stock air filter back in and do the TPS setting. It's a shame Honda didn't just put safety torx in there for adjustment purposes like other manufacturer's. Oh well - just one more thing to do lol.
It only runs rough at idle - it sounds like it's the front cyl that's cutting in and out which is why I was questioning the cam timing specifics. Maybe I'll just pull the covers back off and make sure there's the same number of pins between marks on the front and rear. Once I give it some throttle and hold it steady it sounds nice and smooth and it runs much better once it's warmed up.
There's a tick noise that is evident and changes with RPM as well. I did some searching on here and read that it could be the primary springs or front carb slide rattle. I used my stethoscope and it seemed to be coming form the front cylinder area so I'm not 100% sure.
As far as the tach goes one of those wires has to be the signal wire to drive the stepper for the tach needle. One is supposed to have battery voltage all the time and the other when the key and stop switch are both on. The third pin on the tach is ground. I pulled the tach assembly out and checked the PCB and it looked ok - nothing burnt, no corrosion, etc.
I took the valve covers off because the front CCT failed on the PO and I need to be sure the valves were OK. Luckily all the clearances were spot on so it would appear the chain just jumped on the cams as the timing was way the hell off.
I just ordered the factory vacuum needle from Honda so once that comes in I'll install it and get the carbs synched up. While I'm in there I'll put the stock air filter back in and do the TPS setting. It's a shame Honda didn't just put safety torx in there for adjustment purposes like other manufacturer's. Oh well - just one more thing to do lol.
It only runs rough at idle - it sounds like it's the front cyl that's cutting in and out which is why I was questioning the cam timing specifics. Maybe I'll just pull the covers back off and make sure there's the same number of pins between marks on the front and rear. Once I give it some throttle and hold it steady it sounds nice and smooth and it runs much better once it's warmed up.
There's a tick noise that is evident and changes with RPM as well. I did some searching on here and read that it could be the primary springs or front carb slide rattle. I used my stethoscope and it seemed to be coming form the front cylinder area so I'm not 100% sure.
As far as the tach goes one of those wires has to be the signal wire to drive the stepper for the tach needle. One is supposed to have battery voltage all the time and the other when the key and stop switch are both on. The third pin on the tach is ground. I pulled the tach assembly out and checked the PCB and it looked ok - nothing burnt, no corrosion, etc.
VTR virgin
Superstock
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 447
From: Auckland, New Zealand
The marks that you can see on the cam gears should both line up parallel to the cylinder head; mine do, but not when the timing mark on the alternator is aligned. If you imagine the gears rotating slightly counterclockwise you will see what I mean I hope.
My VTR engine is also pretty noisy at idle, and with the engine off but in gear if I rock the back wheel back and forth I can get a clanking sound out of the clutch area which I think is the source of the idling sound. Once revved up it runs sweetly though. I think this is a case of "they all do that, sir".
My VTR engine is also pretty noisy at idle, and with the engine off but in gear if I rock the back wheel back and forth I can get a clanking sound out of the clutch area which I think is the source of the idling sound. Once revved up it runs sweetly though. I think this is a case of "they all do that, sir".
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