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Swing arm bearing placement reassemble.

Old 05-27-2015, 04:06 PM
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Question Swing arm bearing placement reassemble.

Hey Hawkers

I am modding AGAIN my hawk, only this time I went as far as removing swing arm to have powder coated n figured id rebuild swing arm bearing assembly as well since all of it had to be removed for powder coating.

My question is this:

The needle bearing was a bitch to get out, any ideas to make it inside again easier? I know heat might be an option but wasnt sure if it would **** up the needle bearing, seeing as I would be heating up the part of the swing arm its going in.

Also. how far does the Needle bearing have to go in, just enough to have the grease seal on both sides or does ithave to lay exactly in the middle leaving equal space between it and the grease seals on either side?

Next time im going to record the disassembly.

Thanks guys!
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Old 05-27-2015, 04:13 PM
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Wow language!!!

Place needle bearings in freezer overnight.

Heat swingarm bearing races with a MAPP gas torch (just a little so ya don't mess up the powdercoating).

Set swingarm on its side on a piece of wood.

Insert needle bearing and pound it in using the backside of a socket of the same size.

I think i remember using a sand filled mallet to get it started, then i switched to a small sledgehammer.

I cannot remember how far i pressed them in, but i think i remember there being a sleeve that centered everything up, or a shoulder inside to butt the bearing against.


James
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Old 05-27-2015, 05:44 PM
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Thank you for responding. My bad for cursing. There isnt no shoulder to butt up against as that is the other side of the swingarm, I am 98% positive. Im guessing just inside enough to get the grease seal on there then huh.
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Old 05-27-2015, 06:25 PM
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I need to do mine when I take it apart next winter for powdercoating, I'm sure once you get the seal flush, cranking down the pivot nut and bolt should seat everything where they need to be... I could be wrong though, I wish I had it in front of me to be sure...
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Old 05-27-2015, 07:24 PM
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Well you can just beat it in but...... well they are easy to damage and there is a better way.

You should download the service manual to see how it all goes together.
Then you can buy the tool or get a couple flat washers, one that is larger than the O.D. of the swingarm and one that has the same O.D. as the bearing.

Then with a piece of threaded rod and some nuts you can make an installer that will pull the bearing into position without damage.

And yes you need to center the bearing in the swingarm as there are no stops or locators in the swingarm
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Old 05-27-2015, 07:41 PM
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When I did mine I turned a bearing setting tool that was used with some all thread, torrington bearing, washer and nuts to seat the bearing into the swing arm.

That allowed me to center the tool in the bearing, push only on the outer flat surface of the race, seat it to the correct depth. I also heated the swing arm in the oven to 350 deg F, and froze the bearing. Went together smooth and no drama.
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Old 05-27-2015, 08:10 PM
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Will heating it in the oven hurt poweder coat? I purchased a gloss black powdercoated swingarm that will be installed this summer
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Old 05-27-2015, 08:37 PM
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find out the melting point of the powdercoat used and step it down 50 degrees or so(or more depending on what the actual melting point is)... just be careful handling it...ya know, dont whack it with the hammer
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Old 05-27-2015, 08:41 PM
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or maybe I'm just talking out of my *** tonight... it happens every once in a while
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Old 05-27-2015, 10:16 PM
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Carefully heat and freeze. No pound! Tap. Should be smooth. Don't try to "crank them in" with the nuts. Too many assumptions about all parts being properly aligned. Plus, you'll be loading the needle bearing cage in a direction it was not designed to take.
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
Too many assumptions about all parts being properly aligned.
Not sure why you have an issue with using controlled pressure a.k.a using nuts and threaded rod to pull the bearing in place (like the factory installs them) but ok.

I do find it odd that you make the statement that pressing the bearings in is bad because the parts might not be properly aligned but it is ok to hit it with a hammer. Not sure I follow the logic of that train of thought.

Also hitting a needle bearing cage with a hammer (even just tapping though you would need to really heat up the swingarm to be able to lightly tap it in) will cause damage much quicker than pressing the bearing into place.

Then the final bit. When you install the bearing the proper placement of the bearing is 14-15mm from the outer edge.

Are you going to place the bearing in the proper location tapping away with your hammer?

So yeah you can install the bearing with a hammer but there is a much better way IMHO.
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:36 AM
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The press should work fine, and in most cases is a better idea. It's how most bearings are installed at factories anyway... I've just never done it that way.

I've never had any damage done using the hammer method, but I am very careful.

Always more than one way to do it, but i'm sure one way is better than the other.

No sense arguing about which method is better. We all gave the OP multiple methods to try, now he can make his decision about which to use.

I'd say good job all!

James
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:16 AM
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A three foot length of 1/2" threaded rod, washers and nuts (to make what is refered to above) is ~$5 at Ace Hardware.
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by thedeatons View Post
No sense arguing about which method is better. We all gave the OP multiple methods to try, now he can make his decision about which to use.
It was the dismissive and argumentative response that started us down THAT road.
Carefully heat and freeze. No pound! Tap. Should be smooth. Don't try to "crank them in" with the nuts. Too many assumptions about all parts being properly aligned. Plus, you'll be loading the needle bearing cage in a direction it was not designed to take.
Yes there are several ways to get the job done.

NO using a press to install the bearing is not loading the bearing shell in a way it was not designed for.. It IS how that bearing was designed to be INSTALLED..and it IS how they are installed at the factory, no heating or cooling involved....just simply pressed in place. BUT heating the swing arm and freezing the bearing will make the job easier...and it is what I would do (have done). Just need to be cautious of the new powder coating on the OP's swing arm.. depending on the powder coat used the safe temp is a pretty wide range..So he need to ask his coater what the safe temp is.

Keeping the bearing aligned is MUCH easier with a press then hitting it with a hammer...that's not even a guess, it just is.

Seating the bearing to dept is not critical, or at least not as much as say the water pump impeller ... you want to create a space for the seal to sit.. once it is that deep, stop.

In a perfect world you would use a press plate that has three Outside diameters cut in to it.

The smallest to fit inside the bearing for locating the tool centered
A slightly larger OD shoulder to press against the bearing shell, but small enough to have clearance to the swingarm bore.
And a final larger OD shoulder that acts as a stop when the middle OD shoulder has seated the bearing to the correct depth.

It took me about 10 min to make that press plate on the lathe, with some trial end error, hunting at your local hardware store you can likely find washers or spacers that can be combined to do the same.

Once you get them sized and stacked, consider using super glue (cyanoacrylate ester) to hold them together while you assembly the tool.

Last edited by E.Marquez; 05-28-2015 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 05-28-2015, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Not sure why you have an issue with using controlled pressure a.k.a using nuts and threaded rod to pull the bearing in place (like the factory installs them) but ok.

I do find it odd that you make the statement that pressing the bearings in is bad because the parts might not be properly aligned but it is ok to hit it with a hammer. Not sure I follow the logic of that train of thought.

Also hitting a needle bearing cage with a hammer (even just tapping though you would need to really heat up the swingarm to be able to lightly tap it in) will cause damage much quicker than pressing the bearing into place.

Then the final bit. When you install the bearing the proper placement of the bearing is 14-15mm from the outer edge.

Are you going to place the bearing in the proper location tapping away with your hammer?

So yeah you can install the bearing with a hammer but there is a much better way IMHO.
My point is not to pound, but to find a lower resistance manner. My preference is a press and yes I have installed many hundreds of needle bearings in a 25 year career as a tool repair tech. You seem to bristle a little easily. Many ways to install, but always with an eye towards a lower stress method. If you damage the bearing on installation, you'll certainly know it when you try to insert the shaft and rotate it.
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
My point is not to pound, but to find a lower resistance manner. My preference is a press and yes I have installed many hundreds of needle bearings in a 25 year career as a tool repair tech. You seem to bristle a little easily. Many ways to install, but always with an eye towards a lower stress method. If you damage the bearing on installation, you'll certainly know it when you try to insert the shaft and rotate it.
Yeah I am just so mean and make all kinds of bristly comments.

I could ask why someone with so much experience would make a comment about how pressing a needle bearing in place "will load the cage a direction it was not designed to take". Which is just not true.

So rock on with your bad self and thanks for the laugh and if my post upset you then Marquez must have really got you down with his reply as it seems a bit more bristly than anything I said......
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Old 05-28-2015, 09:34 AM
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Best reread my first comment. Please point out the word "press". Good luck. Again why the animosity? Made general statements against "cranking and pounding", didn't attack your standing as a competent mechanic.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
Best reread my first comment. Please point out the word "press". Good luck. Again why the animosity? Made general statements against "cranking and pounding", didn't attack your standing as a competent mechanic.
Again with the nastiness..... best reread my first comment...... a bit aggressive aren't we?

In fact it appears you are just trying your damnest to start *****.

So lets take a quick look at your first comment.

Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
Carefully heat and freeze. No pound! Tap. Should be smooth.
No issues there if you want to install your bearing with a hammer.

Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
Don't try to "crank them in" with the nuts.
You made a comment about "please point out the word press" though that comment makes no sense to me this is about as close as you get to it. Of course you change my statement of "pull the bearing into place" to "crank them in" with nuts for some reason.

Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
Too many assumptions about all parts being properly aligned. Plus, you'll be loading the needle bearing cage in a direction it was not designed to take.
Then these two beauties, so it is not good practice to press or pull the bearing into place because things might be out of alinement but it is ok to drive the bearing home with a hammer? Could you please explain how this can be? or does that make me mean and argumentative for asking?

Then could you also explain how you can not press in a bearing because it will cause loads that the bearing is not designed to take yet you can shock load it with a hammer to even higher forces and not cause damage?

Though in your next post you say " My preference is a press" which is a bit confusing......

Again I can't help but laugh......

But then again I'm just the bad guy who has nothing better to do than start some silly internet argument.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:09 AM
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and to bring this back on topic.....sorry guys

I live right at the 118 & 210.
You can either bring the arm by or we can meet up someplace and I can help you get the bearing installed correctly.
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Old 05-28-2015, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Again with the nastiness..... best reread my first comment...... a bit aggressive aren't we?

In fact it appears you are just trying your damnest to start *****.

So lets take a quick look at your first comment.



No issues there if you want to install your bearing with a hammer.



You made a comment about "please point out the word press" though that comment makes no sense to me this is about as close as you get to it. Of course you change my statement of "pull the bearing into place" to "crank them in" with nuts for some reason.



Then these two beauties, so it is not good practice to press or pull the bearing into place because things might be out of alinement but it is ok to drive the bearing home with a hammer? Could you please explain how this can be? or does that make me mean and argumentative for asking?

Then could you also explain how you can not press in a bearing because it will cause loads that the bearing is not designed to take yet you can shock load it with a hammer to even higher forces and not cause damage?

Though in your next post you say " My preference is a press" which is a bit confusing......

Again I can't help but laugh......

But then again I'm just the bad guy who has nothing better to do than start some silly internet argument.
Your fantastic expository and analytical skills not withstanding, it must be uncomfortable to have that stick up your *** all the time. Just saying...
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:07 PM
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Post useful helpful content on how to install swingarm bearings (or offer to do it ) or choose not to post.

The rest is just distracting from the OPs request for help.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:15 PM
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Did you mean suppository? Seems things are getting inserted all over the place here.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:49 PM
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lol... sometimes I cant even handle this ****...

But I think the OP is more concerned about where to center the bearings/seals rather then how hes going to get them in there...
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Old 05-28-2015, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by thetophatflash View Post
Your fantastic expository and analytical skills not withstanding, it must be uncomfortable to have that stick up your *** all the time. Just saying...
Again with the personal attacks..... isn't it funny the the guy crying about being treated so badly is the one causing all the issues....

Let me give you a little hit...using big words doesn't stop the fact you are acting very childish.

So I have a stick up my *** huh...why because you made some stupid comments and got called on them?

But that is a question and you haven't been able to answer one yet....just talk more *****...... but again everyone else has the problem.

Another question for you to ponder..... why no comments to Marquez? He said the exact same thing as I did and even a bit more aggressive but I guess if he says it, it is all good......

So is it you have a double standard or just afraid to say anything to him yet feel the great need to talk all kinds of **** to me?

Tell you what, go right on with you little tantrum about how fucked up I am.... I've heard it all before and again find it funny.

As for the rest of you guys.... BS like this that everyone just lets slide is why most of the old timers are no longer here.... why put up with all this when you are just trying to help someone out.

Its not just the Mods job, it is kind of up to everyone to set what type of forum this is.

So for me it is just as easy to spend my time on the UK forum where this is not tolerated.

As I have disrespected Mr Marquez by posting this and not just letting it slide..... I'll give myself a week ban.

Talk with you next Thurs....maybe
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Old 05-28-2015, 08:15 PM
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Argh... Enough already.

Someone remove all this craziness please. Just tell the OP to use a press or a hammer, and the depth is what hawk said... Sigh....

James
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