Steering Stem Bearing installation problem
12-13-2009, 10:07 AM
#1
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Steering Stem Bearing installation problem
The tapered roller bearing I installed on the steering stem does not turn freely. It can be rotated by hand with difficulty. I thought I might benefit from the wisdom of the forum before I hammer the damn thing off and buy another bearing and seal.
To make a short story long, the stock ball bearings were showing signs of wear after about 68,000 kms. I got the lower bearing race off the steering stem by cutting it with a dremel tool before removing it with a hammer and punch. I scarred the bottom of the steering stem shaft slightly while doing so but I smoothed the damaged surface before the new bearing was put on. I put the steering stem in the freezer and left it there for about a day. I packed the new bearing with grease and put a new seal on the now frosty steering stem. I put the new bearing on the steering stem, took the old ball bearing race, inverted it and pounded it into place using a length of steel pipe. The pipe struck the old bearing race only.
I tried to rotate the bearing after it was fully seated on the steering stem. It could be rotated but only with great effort. The bearing is concentric with the seal.
I've changed steering head and stem bearings before without a problem. Any suggestions about remedies, causes or other things to check?
Thanks in advance.
To make a short story long, the stock ball bearings were showing signs of wear after about 68,000 kms. I got the lower bearing race off the steering stem by cutting it with a dremel tool before removing it with a hammer and punch. I scarred the bottom of the steering stem shaft slightly while doing so but I smoothed the damaged surface before the new bearing was put on. I put the steering stem in the freezer and left it there for about a day. I packed the new bearing with grease and put a new seal on the now frosty steering stem. I put the new bearing on the steering stem, took the old ball bearing race, inverted it and pounded it into place using a length of steel pipe. The pipe struck the old bearing race only.
I tried to rotate the bearing after it was fully seated on the steering stem. It could be rotated but only with great effort. The bearing is concentric with the seal.
I've changed steering head and stem bearings before without a problem. Any suggestions about remedies, causes or other things to check?
Thanks in advance.
12-13-2009, 10:45 AM
#2
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the bearing ( inner race ) itself doesn't rotate. the individual rollers ( and carrier ) rotate on the race ( inner / outer ).
with the stem out if the rollers don't turn smoothy ( and easily ) then the bearing has been / is somehow distorted and binding on the inner race... and basically garbage.
before i remove it - i'd clean the grease out. did you use a good bearing grease ?
tim
with the stem out if the rollers don't turn smoothy ( and easily ) then the bearing has been / is somehow distorted and binding on the inner race... and basically garbage.
before i remove it - i'd clean the grease out. did you use a good bearing grease ?
tim
Last edited by trinc; 12-13-2009 at 10:51 AM.
12-13-2009, 01:36 PM
#4
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Dear Trinc and reaper,
The bearings are brand new. I didn't check whether the bearing turned freely before I packed it with grease. I used Molyslip Multi-Purpose Grease. It's the same type of grease I used on the original ball bearings. I didn't check to see if the bearing turned freely after being packed.
The bearing is installed on the steering stem with the larger circumference of the roller cage being at the base. It's angled the same way the sides of the Great Pyramid are.
I installed the replacement seal beneath the bearing with the new seal oriented the same way as the stock seal, i.e. with the lips of the seal up toward the bearing. I put the correct seal on the upper bearing oriented the same way for comparison. The upper bearing rollers and cage turn freely with the seal in place. There is some clearance between the lip of the seal and the bottom of the rollers. That's not the case with the lower bearing on the steering stem. The lip of the seal touches the bottom of the rollers.
I didn't put the seal on the lower bearing before I put the bearing on the steering stem. Maybe that's where I made a mistake. The inside diameter of the seal is bigger than the diameter of the base of the steering stem. The seal can move around before the bearing is seated on top of it. I may have seated the bearing when the seal was skewed a little bit and the roller cage is binding against the lip of the seal.
In any case, thanks for the responses. Any other thoughts?
The bearings are brand new. I didn't check whether the bearing turned freely before I packed it with grease. I used Molyslip Multi-Purpose Grease. It's the same type of grease I used on the original ball bearings. I didn't check to see if the bearing turned freely after being packed.
The bearing is installed on the steering stem with the larger circumference of the roller cage being at the base. It's angled the same way the sides of the Great Pyramid are.
I installed the replacement seal beneath the bearing with the new seal oriented the same way as the stock seal, i.e. with the lips of the seal up toward the bearing. I put the correct seal on the upper bearing oriented the same way for comparison. The upper bearing rollers and cage turn freely with the seal in place. There is some clearance between the lip of the seal and the bottom of the rollers. That's not the case with the lower bearing on the steering stem. The lip of the seal touches the bottom of the rollers.
I didn't put the seal on the lower bearing before I put the bearing on the steering stem. Maybe that's where I made a mistake. The inside diameter of the seal is bigger than the diameter of the base of the steering stem. The seal can move around before the bearing is seated on top of it. I may have seated the bearing when the seal was skewed a little bit and the roller cage is binding against the lip of the seal.
In any case, thanks for the responses. Any other thoughts?
12-13-2009, 02:21 PM
#5
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I'm confused. the description of what you did you use race and bearing interchangeably. but just for clariification. For the stem the order should be seal, then lower race. You have to drive the lower (inner) race onto the stem. those are fixed on the stem. but the bearings should definitely NOT need to be driven on. you shoudl be able to just slide the rollers down the stem and onto the race. they should not be wacked/driven etc. If you did all that as I'm describing maybe you have the wrong parts or the top and lower bearings mixed up.
12-13-2009, 02:24 PM
#6
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I'm confused. the description of what you did you use race and bearing interchangeably. but just for clariification. For the stem the order should be seal, then lower race. You have to drive the lower (inner) race onto the stem. those are fixed on the stem. but the bearings should definitely NOT need to be driven on. you shoudl be able to just slide the rollers down the stem and onto the race. they should not be wacked/driven etc. If you did all that as I'm describing maybe you have the wrong parts or the top and lower bearings mixed up.
12-14-2009, 08:48 AM
#7
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Sorry about the lack of clarity. The race I was referring to is the inner race from the stock ball bearing that was on the bottom of the steering stem. I used that race to drive the new roller bearing onto the steering stem.
I put the seal on the steering stem before driving the new roller bearing onto the steering stem.
The new roller bearing has its rollers in a cage that, as far as I can tell, is attached to the inner race of the roller bearing and can't be removed.
When I drove the roller bearing onto the steering stem, there was contact only with the inner race of the roller bearing. No force was applied to the rollers themselves or the cage which contained them. Applying force to the rollers or cage would have damaged the bearing.
The new upper roller bearing is smaller than the new lower roller bearing. They aren't interchangeable.
While I was Googling in an attempt to find a solution to the problem, I came across the Peter Verdone Designs website. As has already been mentioned on this forum, it's a great resource for fork valving information. He also writes about replacing the steering head bearings of a crashed CBR600RR. He wrote that it's important to put the seal on the roller bearing before it's driven onto the steering stem. I didn't do that. I just let the seal sit at the bottom of the steering stem when I drove the roller bearing onto it. The seal is a complex one with two lips rather than one and proper alignment with the roller bearing is critical.
I put the seal on the steering stem before driving the new roller bearing onto the steering stem.
The new roller bearing has its rollers in a cage that, as far as I can tell, is attached to the inner race of the roller bearing and can't be removed.
When I drove the roller bearing onto the steering stem, there was contact only with the inner race of the roller bearing. No force was applied to the rollers themselves or the cage which contained them. Applying force to the rollers or cage would have damaged the bearing.
The new upper roller bearing is smaller than the new lower roller bearing. They aren't interchangeable.
While I was Googling in an attempt to find a solution to the problem, I came across the Peter Verdone Designs website. As has already been mentioned on this forum, it's a great resource for fork valving information. He also writes about replacing the steering head bearings of a crashed CBR600RR. He wrote that it's important to put the seal on the roller bearing before it's driven onto the steering stem. I didn't do that. I just let the seal sit at the bottom of the steering stem when I drove the roller bearing onto it. The seal is a complex one with two lips rather than one and proper alignment with the roller bearing is critical.
12-14-2009, 10:37 AM
#8
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did you buy the kit from all ***** ? i don't recall prefitting the seal before the inner race went on. iirc, the bearing cage was seperate from the two races.
tim
i thought i took some pictures of the install, but couldn't find them...
tim
i thought i took some pictures of the install, but couldn't find them...
12-14-2009, 04:51 PM
#9
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Dear Trinc,
Yes, it is an All ***** kit and thanks for looking for the pictures.
The inner race, outer race and the caged ***** are separate components of the stock ball bearings on the steering stem. The caged rollers on the All ***** roller bearing can't be separated from the inner race.
I think I'll send All ***** an e-mail and see what they have to say. I'd like to stress that I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with the product. The likelihood is that I made some mistake with the installation.
Yes, it is an All ***** kit and thanks for looking for the pictures.
The inner race, outer race and the caged ***** are separate components of the stock ball bearings on the steering stem. The caged rollers on the All ***** roller bearing can't be separated from the inner race.
I think I'll send All ***** an e-mail and see what they have to say. I'd like to stress that I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with the product. The likelihood is that I made some mistake with the installation.
12-14-2009, 05:38 PM
#10
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Gentlemen, I read through this thread last night and I am just as frustrated with it tonight.
This thread has had a nomeclature (the names for things) problem since almost square one.
When I hold a bearing in my hand - I do not hold a race.
The bearing consists of an inner sleave. Rollers or *****. Then a "keeper" cage of some sort keeps the rollers against the sleave.
The bearing runs in a bed provided by the race. The race is as finely machined to the shaft as the bearing.
The AllBallz kits are the same config as the stock parts. Just tapered bearing instead of *****. Be aware that tapered bearings benefit a good measure by snugging occasionally.
This thread has had a nomeclature (the names for things) problem since almost square one.
When I hold a bearing in my hand - I do not hold a race.
The bearing consists of an inner sleave. Rollers or *****. Then a "keeper" cage of some sort keeps the rollers against the sleave.
The bearing runs in a bed provided by the race. The race is as finely machined to the shaft as the bearing.
The AllBallz kits are the same config as the stock parts. Just tapered bearing instead of *****. Be aware that tapered bearings benefit a good measure by snugging occasionally.
12-14-2009, 05:58 PM
#12
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The bearing runs in a bed provided by the race. The race is as finely machined to the shaft as the bearing.
The AllBallz kits are the same config as the stock parts. Just tapered bearing instead of *****. Be aware that tapered bearings benefit a good measure by snugging occasionally.
The AllBallz kits are the same config as the stock parts. Just tapered bearing instead of *****. Be aware that tapered bearings benefit a good measure by snugging occasionally.
http://www.goallballs.com/SHOP/shope...rom=Ret&id=589
12-14-2009, 06:53 PM
#13
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Gentlemen, I read through this thread last night and I am just as frustrated with it tonight.
This thread has had a nomeclature (the names for things) problem since almost square one.
When I hold a bearing in my hand - I do not hold a race.
The bearing consists of an inner sleave. Rollers or *****. Then a "keeper" cage of some sort keeps the rollers against the sleave.
The bearing runs in a bed provided by the race. The race is as finely machined to the shaft as the bearing.
The AllBallz kits are the same config as the stock parts. Just tapered bearing instead of *****. Be aware that tapered bearings benefit a good measure by snugging occasionally.
This thread has had a nomeclature (the names for things) problem since almost square one.
When I hold a bearing in my hand - I do not hold a race.
The bearing consists of an inner sleave. Rollers or *****. Then a "keeper" cage of some sort keeps the rollers against the sleave.
The bearing runs in a bed provided by the race. The race is as finely machined to the shaft as the bearing.
The AllBallz kits are the same config as the stock parts. Just tapered bearing instead of *****. Be aware that tapered bearings benefit a good measure by snugging occasionally.
a bearing is simply a ball, roller, needle etc. period. the bearings are held in a cage or keeper ( various names ). this caged set , a number of bearing then takes the plural form 'bearings'. the bearings rotate on a machined part called a race. there are two races... inner & outer.
there is no 'sleave'
tim
12-14-2009, 07:09 PM
#14
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I beg to differ. the sleave fits on the same shaft as the race. Usually their machined spec's are the same in terms of shaft diameter but not necessarily. If you look at machine spec for a bearing set they will give you the axle dimension of the sleave and the axle dimension of the race. They could be the same and they could be different depending on the set.
This all aside. If you're hammering a bearing into place and you have your driver on the cage - by the time the sleave or whatever you want to call it is in place your bearing is fukt.
This all aside. If you're hammering a bearing into place and you have your driver on the cage - by the time the sleave or whatever you want to call it is in place your bearing is fukt.
12-14-2009, 07:32 PM
#15
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Regardless of nomeclature, I believe I understand what he did... and for what it's worth I did mine the same way and it worked out fine.... he used the old lower sleeve/race/inner/part that's pressed on the stem/whatever you want to call it to contact the new lower bearing assembly to avoid mashing (technical term) the outer cage/keeper/whatever you want to call it when hammering it on....
My guess is you are on to something with the seal.... it's possible it's rubbing against the underside of the bearing and keeping it from turning easily... or it's toast... really the only two options...
If you can back to bearing back "off" the stem just a bit without damaging it or the seal, that slight bit of space should allow it to turn freely if it's the seal... if it's still jammed.... you might have damaged it somehow when hammering it on.
J.
My guess is you are on to something with the seal.... it's possible it's rubbing against the underside of the bearing and keeping it from turning easily... or it's toast... really the only two options...
If you can back to bearing back "off" the stem just a bit without damaging it or the seal, that slight bit of space should allow it to turn freely if it's the seal... if it's still jammed.... you might have damaged it somehow when hammering it on.
J.
12-14-2009, 09:05 PM
#18
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Dear Slowhawk,
It's a huge relief to be understood.
Thanks to everyone who tried to figure out what I had written.
I'll pass on any helpful information I get from All *****.
It's a huge relief to be understood.
Thanks to everyone who tried to figure out what I had written.
I'll pass on any helpful information I get from All *****.
12-15-2009, 06:19 AM
#19
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The 3rd page of the linked PDF will give the correct nomenclature for typical tapered roller bearings.
http://www.ntn.ca/pdf/BowerCat/10_Tapered_Intro.pdf
There is no "sleave", or sleeve.
Rex
12-15-2009, 09:21 PM
#21
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Check that your seal ring isnt dinged. Thats whats causing the bind-up. That or you wacked the bearings up as you drove them down. You did use a ton of patience right? A key ingredient easily overlooked
12-18-2009, 06:40 PM
#22
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I sent All ***** a letter outlining the problem a couple of days ago. I don't think they've had enough time to respond.
I took the lower triple clamp with the bearing on it to a local shop that I trust. The mechanic said that the problem was with the seal. The seal lip rode too high on the roller cage. The amount of friction between the seal and the roller cage prevented easy rotation.
He spoke well of All ***** but said that this problem occurs from time to time albeit rarely. The bearing would work if the lower triple were installed as is but the additional friction probably would be perceptible.
He removed the bearing from the steering stem. He inspected it after he had removed it. He said that the bearing was undamaged and he said that if it were his bike he'd use the bearing.
He said that he tries to save the original seal when he removes the lower bearing from a steering stem. Obviously, it's possible to save the seal if the steering stem is pressed out of the lower triple clamp. The VTR steering stem is welded to the lower triple clamp and can't be pressed out.
It looks like the stock seal will fit the All ***** roller bearing. I've ordered a new All ***** kit and I'll order a new stock Honda seal for the lower bearing. The stock Honda seal is a single lip seal and there shouldn't be as much friction between it and the roller cage. I may end up using it if I have the same trouble with the All ***** seal.
I took the lower triple clamp with the bearing on it to a local shop that I trust. The mechanic said that the problem was with the seal. The seal lip rode too high on the roller cage. The amount of friction between the seal and the roller cage prevented easy rotation.
He spoke well of All ***** but said that this problem occurs from time to time albeit rarely. The bearing would work if the lower triple were installed as is but the additional friction probably would be perceptible.
He removed the bearing from the steering stem. He inspected it after he had removed it. He said that the bearing was undamaged and he said that if it were his bike he'd use the bearing.
He said that he tries to save the original seal when he removes the lower bearing from a steering stem. Obviously, it's possible to save the seal if the steering stem is pressed out of the lower triple clamp. The VTR steering stem is welded to the lower triple clamp and can't be pressed out.
It looks like the stock seal will fit the All ***** roller bearing. I've ordered a new All ***** kit and I'll order a new stock Honda seal for the lower bearing. The stock Honda seal is a single lip seal and there shouldn't be as much friction between it and the roller cage. I may end up using it if I have the same trouble with the All ***** seal.
12-20-2009, 10:46 AM
#23
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I am part way through fitting taper roller kit to my bike as we speak, and as a result of reading this post a couple of weeks ago, i checked the seal and roller before fitting.. and found..........
If I take only the inner cone [with the roller cage captive fitted] and the seal in my hand, the seal will contact the cage making obvious friction.
But
If I then fit the outer race [cup] as well, the rubbing stops and there is no friction.
looks like when the taper rollers are only resting on the inner cone, they get pushed to a larger effective pitch circle diameter, and this results in the cage sitting lower. When the outer race is fitted, this pulls the PCD in, and the cage and taper rollers are effectivly pulled up the inner cone moving way from the seal lip.
So with my parts, it looks like I can see the same problem you saw, but it looks like it will be OK when the inner & outer races are fitted and the assembly is correctly preloaded.
If I take only the inner cone [with the roller cage captive fitted] and the seal in my hand, the seal will contact the cage making obvious friction.
But
If I then fit the outer race [cup] as well, the rubbing stops and there is no friction.
looks like when the taper rollers are only resting on the inner cone, they get pushed to a larger effective pitch circle diameter, and this results in the cage sitting lower. When the outer race is fitted, this pulls the PCD in, and the cage and taper rollers are effectivly pulled up the inner cone moving way from the seal lip.
So with my parts, it looks like I can see the same problem you saw, but it looks like it will be OK when the inner & outer races are fitted and the assembly is correctly preloaded.
12-20-2009, 01:23 PM
#24
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Cups , cones, rollers and cage as described by Bower and many other bearing manufacture to include my favorite tapered roller bearing supplier, Timken.
The race is commonly referred to as the surface where the rollers contact the cup and cone
CONE:
The bearing's inner ring that is fixed to and/or pressed onto a rotating shaft.
CUP:
The bearing's outer ring that sits on the housing and remains stationary during rotation.
CAGE:
The separator that spaces and holds rolling elements in their proper positions along the races.
Nomenclature is really an important part of a mechanics business, as well as anyone who wants to tell another something about the item, or ask for help.
It’s also the best way to help another understand what your explaining, or for a person to ask a question that can be universally understood by all.
24 years as a US Army Non commissioned Officer.. makes one a bit **** about words… they mean something, using them incorrectly can get folks hurt, as can misunderstanding what another meant to say, vs, what they did say.
TO THE OP..
Sucks, BUT, I'm on line with the others, one of three things.
Wrong bearing set.
Damaged bearing as made or due to install.
Damaged seal.
If you end up replacing the bearing again.. A suggestion..
Heat the bearing set in a oven to 400 deg.
Freeze the steering stem in a deep freeze several hours (over night is best)
Use the old bearing set cone as you did before, but first, sand or grind the inner bore some,, so that it is a hand fit on the stem.
If you can weld or have a friend,, weld a piece of pipe an inch longer than the stem to the cone... Best if you use a press, but a large, heavy hammer, will work as well...
Set you stem (triple clamp) on a solid surface, something with NO GIVE.. as in concrete floor.. NOT a work bench. Drop the heated bearing on the frozen steering stem, and in one smack of the hammer, of just a few pounds from the pres, the new bearing assembly will slide right on. I've been doing these this way for about 35 years.... works my bikes and others I maintain.
Best of luck, let us know how it works out.
The race is commonly referred to as the surface where the rollers contact the cup and cone
CONE:
The bearing's inner ring that is fixed to and/or pressed onto a rotating shaft.
CUP:
The bearing's outer ring that sits on the housing and remains stationary during rotation.
CAGE:
The separator that spaces and holds rolling elements in their proper positions along the races.
Nomenclature is really an important part of a mechanics business, as well as anyone who wants to tell another something about the item, or ask for help.
It’s also the best way to help another understand what your explaining, or for a person to ask a question that can be universally understood by all.
24 years as a US Army Non commissioned Officer.. makes one a bit **** about words… they mean something, using them incorrectly can get folks hurt, as can misunderstanding what another meant to say, vs, what they did say.
TO THE OP..
Sucks, BUT, I'm on line with the others, one of three things.
Wrong bearing set.
Damaged bearing as made or due to install.
Damaged seal.
If you end up replacing the bearing again.. A suggestion..
Heat the bearing set in a oven to 400 deg.
Freeze the steering stem in a deep freeze several hours (over night is best)
Use the old bearing set cone as you did before, but first, sand or grind the inner bore some,, so that it is a hand fit on the stem.
If you can weld or have a friend,, weld a piece of pipe an inch longer than the stem to the cone... Best if you use a press, but a large, heavy hammer, will work as well...
Set you stem (triple clamp) on a solid surface, something with NO GIVE.. as in concrete floor.. NOT a work bench. Drop the heated bearing on the frozen steering stem, and in one smack of the hammer, of just a few pounds from the pres, the new bearing assembly will slide right on. I've been doing these this way for about 35 years.... works my bikes and others I maintain.
Best of luck, let us know how it works out.
12-20-2009, 05:58 PM
#25
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Precisely. Bravo! They are opposed and when properly maintained they can be the sweetness in the motorcycle suspension. I have adjusted mine three times since install 18 months ago. I might get .004 each time but it makes a huge difference. Think you need new tires, tighten your neck bearings and think again!
Last edited by nuhawk; 12-20-2009 at 06:03 PM.
12-22-2009, 11:09 AM
#26
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Alex from All ***** Racing called me today. He was very helpful. He described the seal as a "high contact seal". It's intended to extend the life of the bearing. The seal should be fitted onto the cone (thanks, TXSuperChicken) before the cone is driven onto the steering stem. It's very important that the seal fit properly on the cone. Once the steering stem and upper bearing are installed on the bike and snugged up, everything should be just fine.
Thanks again to all who responded.
Thanks again to all who responded.
03-25-2010, 08:24 AM
#27
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An update for those who have waited with bated breath. Everything seems OK.
I installed a new All ***** tapered roller bearing and seal on the steering stem. There was still some drag on the bearing caused by the seal. I installed the steering stem and put a new All ***** tapered roller bearing and seal on the top of the steering stem and tightened the adjustment nut.
The kit didn't come with instructions and there is a divergence of opinion on proper installation torque values on the Internet.
I tightened the adjustment nut until the steering stem moved with some resistance and then I moved it back and forth until it loosened. I did that several times. I tightened the adjustment nut to about 100 in-lb. That's slightly more than specified in the Honda Common Service manual (8 ft-lb.) for tapered roller bearings but less than that specified in the VTR shop manual (18 ft-lb.) for caged ball bearings. Once torqued, it took about 25 in-lb. of force to rotate the steering stem clockwise.
I didn't do a back-to-back comparison of how the bike felt with the new tapered rollers as opposed to the old caged ball bearings but I can say that any additional seal drag related to the All ***** kit is in the imperceptible to imaginary category.
I installed a new All ***** tapered roller bearing and seal on the steering stem. There was still some drag on the bearing caused by the seal. I installed the steering stem and put a new All ***** tapered roller bearing and seal on the top of the steering stem and tightened the adjustment nut.
The kit didn't come with instructions and there is a divergence of opinion on proper installation torque values on the Internet.
I tightened the adjustment nut until the steering stem moved with some resistance and then I moved it back and forth until it loosened. I did that several times. I tightened the adjustment nut to about 100 in-lb. That's slightly more than specified in the Honda Common Service manual (8 ft-lb.) for tapered roller bearings but less than that specified in the VTR shop manual (18 ft-lb.) for caged ball bearings. Once torqued, it took about 25 in-lb. of force to rotate the steering stem clockwise.
I didn't do a back-to-back comparison of how the bike felt with the new tapered rollers as opposed to the old caged ball bearings but I can say that any additional seal drag related to the All ***** kit is in the imperceptible to imaginary category.
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