Technical Discussion Topics related to Technical Issues

Oil Consumption...

Old 07-17-2012, 05:25 AM
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Oil Consumption...

So I was wondering what is typical oil consumption on these bikes...

Before my trip to the Catskills in NY, the oil was topped off to just under the high mark. A few pics...

Girlfriends house...destination: bootyrific! LOL

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And this cool, cult lookin church:

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Once I got home though, (total trip was @450mi from Friday to Sunday) the level was just below the lowest mark on the window. Topped it off with a lil over a 1/2 (closer to 2/3) quart of Shell Rotella T6 Full synthetic 5W-40.

Is this normal consumption that I just have to top off?

No greasy soot in the exhaust.
No blue smoke.
Purrs like a lion.
Nothing unusual or out of the ordinary.
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:36 AM
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Not sure if thats normal.. Just did my oilchange sunday and was still at top level mark after 2.5k miles. On change and now 150+ miles im still good on level.

Have you checked your oil filter seal? Possible leak under pressure?.. Im sure a more seasoned member can contribute to normal oil traits on the SH. Id check the belly make sure there isnt any traces of oil drips from filter area or oil pan bolt just as starters.
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:55 AM
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My VTR is about the same. Some use more oil than others. I get some misting on the right side and bottom of the sump but it's nothing worth tearing down the motor for.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:09 AM
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See my following thread for a possible answer as to whether your oil level is due to ring blow-by, valve stem seal wear, a oil filter seal or other easily found leak, etc...

https://www.superhawkforum.com/forum...87/#post337929
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:52 AM
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Thanks guys...
For the record tho, nothing leaking anywhere...even replaced the right side crankcase cover gasket because it had a seep.
I'll check those other threads.

Last edited by Bandit400man; 07-17-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:03 AM
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Were you running the bike at high RPM's?

Also remember it is a big twin and sometimes they blow some oil, it just happens.

Mine will do it from time to time but more often when it has run in the upper RPM range.

So keep track of it. If it does it all the time, then it is time to figure out why.

If it only happens from time to time, that is pretty much normal and is really nothing to worry about.

If there air no visible leaks it is more than likely in the airbox.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:37 AM
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Hmmm...
8541, I dont really run it at very high rpms, no. But I do cruise @90-100mph on the highway though.
Under what conditions would oil get into the air box? Guess I could check that out...

And 3000 miles and only a quart is like my car: about the same consumption. I wouldnt be worried about that. This is like quart every 500mi with no evidence of foul play...yet.
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:29 AM
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It is one of those things that just happens from time to time.

Another thing that "could" cause it is as the rings spin on the pistons the end gaps do line up from time to time which gives a bit more blow by. This would add pressure to the crankcase and the oil gets blown up into the air box.

Now this is just a theory and no saying it is the true cause.

Just something I came up with to explain why my bike will use oil once in a while and then just stop.

It has always done this, so I just check the oil level as part of my "pre-ride" along with things like the tire pressure (you do check your oil and tire pressures before you ride, don't you?) add when needed.

Other than that I really don't worry about it, it is just something big twins do.

Last edited by 8541Hawk; 07-17-2012 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 07-17-2012, 11:50 AM
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It's hard saying where it could be going. Keep an eye on it and see if it continues. Could have been you didn't have the bike completely verticle when you checked it the first time. Check it in another 500 miles and see what it looks like.

High RPM and wheelies can both lead to more oil going through the airbox. If you wanted to check something you could pull the air box lid off and see what it looks like inside.

It could be worn rings or valve guides. I don't think the rings really rotate in the piston much if at all. Otherwiese it wouldn't be such a no-no to have them lined up when installing them.

Though as stated big twins have a tendancy to pump a lot of air in and out of the crankcases especially at higher RPM's and will pump oil vapors with it. Could be all it is. Extended 100mph runs could be the cause.
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Old 07-17-2012, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GTS View Post
It could be worn rings or valve guides. I don't think the rings really rotate in the piston much if at all. Otherwiese it wouldn't be such a no-no to have them lined up when installing them.
Funny how everything I say just has to be wrong....

Well here is the proof that they do rotate during use or engine operation:
Piston Ring Rotation

or just google "do piston ring rotate during use" and see pages of data that say they do.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:38 PM
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Oh so I see you have unblocked me! :hehe: No not at all, but the way you acted before makes you stand out.

In these engines they aren't held in place like they are on two strokes so yes they'll move but they don't go just spinning around in the cylinders.

My dad had an '89 F250 with a 460 in it and they had some problems with those engines from the factory with the piston rings being in a line. It actually went in for warranty work to be re-ringed to correct this. If the rings simply rotated all the time they would have moved and being in a line wouldn't have been an issue.

Also if they moved so much and just got in a line as you suggest then most if not all other vehicle would see this same pattern of the rings getting in a line and all of a sudden using a lot more oil.
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:58 PM
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See? Peace can be made here on Superhawk forums! LOL

I do check as part of my pre-ride check...while dead cold, on the rear stand. Also tire pressure, chain slack, bolts tight or not (got that habit from the bandit), and just visual stuff (headlights, breaklights, signals, ect, ect).

So OK...census seems that this is normal for twins. Good. I guess LOL...This is my first one, and I love it so I want to take care of it. Guess I gotta keep a spare gallon of oil laying around.

Which leads me to another question...

If there's a constant supply of fresh oil being added, where the F#$K does it go? Airbox should fill up and swamp eventually, right? Or does it just get burned slowly? Last time I had oil in an airbox it was my bandit, and it happened because I burned a hole right thru the piston doing sustained 120+mph on my way back from NC...thank Jebus I was within the 100mi tow range of AAA!
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GTS View Post
Oh so I see you have unblocked me! :hehe: No not at all, but the way you acted before makes you stand out.

In these engines they aren't held in place like they are on two strokes so yes they'll move but they don't go just spinning around in the cylinders.

My dad had an '89 F250 with a 460 in it and they had some problems with those engines from the factory with the piston rings being in a line. It actually went in for warranty work to be re-ringed to correct this. If the rings simply rotated all the time they would have moved and being in a line wouldn't have been an issue.

Also if they moved so much and just got in a line as you suggest then most if not all other vehicle would see this same pattern of the rings getting in a line and all of a sudden using a lot more oil.

Yeah it's all just me....I've been on this forum how many years now.... but you're always right...

Now if you or anyone bothered to actually read the page I linked to you would find this:
How fast do the piston rings rotate?

Quoting from one study:"Rate and speed of piston-ring rotation varied with cylinder-head pressure and engine speed. Rate of rotation as high as 1 RPM at an engine speed of 1000 RPM were observed"
Report No. 850 National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, Aircraft Engine Research Laboratory.
So once again I give you positive proof that what I have said is correct and not just something I have made up, but you still say I'm wrong and go on about your daddies 460 ford.

But no you can't be the one who is constantly trying to start ****.

So lets try the other way my documentation proves they spin:

Turn the question around and ask what would happen if the piston rings did not rotate?

At the top of the piston travel there is a area where only the top piston ring reaches. If the top ring is not rotating there will be a small gap in the wear corresponding with the gap in the piston ring.

Likewise, at the bottom of the piston travel where only one piston ring rides, you will also see a small gap in the wear from the corresponding gap in the piston ring.

If we do not see a small gap in the wear at the top and the bottom then the top and bottom ring gaps are changing position which means that the rings are rotating (not spinning).

Another way to prove this is to make a cylinder wall so rough that the piston rings are locked into position. Run the engine and then take a look for yourself.



How many engines have you taken apart and seen wear marks from the ring end gap? All the engines I have torn down have never had that type of marking.



As for how fast they actually rotate, I guess you can either believe the lab that has actually observed them rotating at a speed up to 1 RPM per 1000RPM of engine speed or your assumption that " they don't go just spinning around in the cylinders"


So unless the rings are pinned in place, they rotate.


So if you can come up with any documentation to prove that they don't rotate or barely rotate, lets see it. Otherwise it's just your assumption going against people who have done scientific testing on the matter.

As for how the NACA did their testing:

A V-type engine provided with a glass cylinder was used to study visually the lubrication characteristics of an aircraft-type piston. Photographs and data were obtained with the engine motored at engine speeds up to 1000 r.p.m. and constant cylinder-head pressures of 0 and 50 pounds per square inch. A study was made of the orientation of the piston under various operating conditions, which indicated that the piston was inclined with the crown nearest the major-thrust cylinder face throughout the greater part of the cycle. The piston moved laterally in the cylinder under the influence of piston side thrust.
An Adobe Acrobat (PDF) file of the entire report:
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/...report-850.pdf


http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/report.php?NID=2463

So yes they were able to watch the rings rotate and measure the speed of rotating with great accuracy.














Last edited by 8541Hawk; 07-17-2012 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandit400man View Post

If there's a constant supply of fresh oil being added, where the F#$K does it go? Airbox should fill up and swamp eventually, right? Or does it just get burned slowly? Last time I had oil in an airbox it was my bandit, and it happened because I burned a hole right thru the piston doing sustained 120+mph on my way back from NC...thank Jebus I was within the 100mi tow range of AAA!
It comes out at a slow enough rate and also in more of a vapor form that it is burned in the combustion process. Though you will find traces of it on the bottom of the airbox.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:57 PM
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Oh c'mon guys, does it really matter who's right or wrong? Internet is for opinions. One should take those opinions and form their own assumption.

But to add to this discussion , I have replaced the cylinder sleeve on my bandit...no ring end gap wear marks...so they gotta rotate somewhat...seems like sound reasoning to me.

Remember, PEACE can be made!
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:58 PM
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Sweet man thanks 8541...sounds like a plausible explanation.

Oh an to that...

So what is my oil change interval, if fresh oil is added every 500mi? I can understand if its the same through 3000mi, it needs drained and changed. But what now? Only a periodic filter change? Every 5 or 6k miles?

Last edited by Bandit400man; 07-17-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 12:30 AM
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I'm happy for you that you've been around for years. And no I'm actually big enough to know I'm not always correct. A lesson you seem to still need to learn.

You have to kind of wonder just how similar the conditions are with "a glass cylinder ... with the engine motored at engine speeds up to 1000 r.p.m. and constant cylinder-head pressures of 0 and 50 pounds per square inch." We have metal sleeves, operate over 1,000 r.p.m. at idle, and have well over 50psi of cylinder pressures.

Also you might want to go back and re-read the page you linked to. It does NOT say they "observed them rotating at a speed up to 1 RPM per 1000RPM of engine speed." It says "Rates of rotation as high as 1 rpm at an engine speed of 1000 rpm were observed." And again in a situation that's completely different than an actual running engine.

It's interesting I'm seeing a pattern in what is typed and what you seem to read or how you comprehend it. First I thought it was just my posts because you don't like me so you don't read them fully. But now I'm seeing you misquote things you're trying to use for your argument too.

Thinking about this logically, higher cylinder pressures would push the rings against the ring groves harder making them less likely to rotate as much. Also higher RPM will likely have the same result.

As I said, yes they move around. Just spinning away in the cylinder though? Not so sure. That'd likely put a lot of wear on the ring lands if they were spinning that consistently.

The whole point of this debate is if the ring end gaps lining up is the cause of the oil consumption. Yes the rings DO move around and rotate back and forth. So lets look at the other side of this. IF the rings rotating and lining up was indeed the cause of sporadic oil consumption wouldn't this be something we'd see on all piston engines? Your car or truck would have the same sporadic change in oil consumption. Though probably even more pronounce being you have 4-10 cylinders all doing the same thing. Also according to your link if it were the cause wouldn't the ring end gaps only be lined up for a couple seconds tops? This wouldn't come close to being long enough to actually pump any substantial amount of oil out.

So pick which point you want to argue but you're wrong on one or the other because the information you're posting is contradictory to your theory of oil consumption.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:11 AM
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Bandit,Why you just use the proper viscosity oil (10w40)?
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:23 AM
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Cause at operating temp its the same...40w. The 5w is only at cold temp, during start up. I use it cause its dirt cheap for synthetic an has no friction reducing compounds.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:47 AM
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I had a bit of oil weeping down my rear MCCT. It was very fine, and didn't really accumulate on the bike enough to be that noticeable. There was a difference in the oil level over a few hundred miles. I ended up putting some RTV on the bolt, problem solved.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GTS View Post
I'm happy for you that you've been around for years. And no I'm actually big enough to know I'm not always correct. A lesson you seem to still need to learn.

You have to kind of wonder just how similar the conditions are with "a glass cylinder ... with the engine motored at engine speeds up to 1000 r.p.m. and constant cylinder-head pressures of 0 and 50 pounds per square inch." We have metal sleeves, operate over 1,000 r.p.m. at idle, and have well over 50psi of cylinder pressures.

Also you might want to go back and re-read the page you linked to. It does NOT say they "observed them rotating at a speed up to 1 RPM per 1000RPM of engine speed." It says "Rates of rotation as high as 1 rpm at an engine speed of 1000 rpm were observed." And again in a situation that's completely different than an actual running engine.

It's interesting I'm seeing a pattern in what is typed and what you seem to read or how you comprehend it. First I thought it was just my posts because you don't like me so you don't read them fully. But now I'm seeing you misquote things you're trying to use for your argument too.

Thinking about this logically, higher cylinder pressures would push the rings against the ring groves harder making them less likely to rotate as much. Also higher RPM will likely have the same result.

As I said, yes they move around. Just spinning away in the cylinder though? Not so sure. That'd likely put a lot of wear on the ring lands if they were spinning that consistently.

The whole point of this debate is if the ring end gaps lining up is the cause of the oil consumption. Yes the rings DO move around and rotate back and forth. So lets look at the other side of this. IF the rings rotating and lining up was indeed the cause of sporadic oil consumption wouldn't this be something we'd see on all piston engines? Your car or truck would have the same sporadic change in oil consumption. Though probably even more pronounce being you have 4-10 cylinders all doing the same thing. Also according to your link if it were the cause wouldn't the ring end gaps only be lined up for a couple seconds tops? This wouldn't come close to being long enough to actually pump any substantial amount of oil out.

So pick which point you want to argue but you're wrong on one or the other because the information you're posting is contradictory to your theory of oil consumption.

Back to ignore for you, Why , well because I just don't have time for your petty personal vendettas.

I find it damn funny that after being here as long as I have that I really don't have an issue with anyone here, except you. But it has to be all me and all my fault.

I could go on and tell you about your issues or try to explain things to you but like always it would just turn into a petty argument and it isn't worth the time and I don't want to bother the other members with this kind of Bullshit .

Also you might want to remember who has been banned from this forum before you get all high and might.

Have a nice day, your second chance lasted 1 day, you will not get another one.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:15 AM
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Matt, my rear cct looks good, no oil near it. Pretty sure its stock. But that isn't a bad idea, if I do it I'll just install new cct's at the same time.
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:52 AM
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hmmm, could it be weeping from the drain bolt? Oil pan gasket?

Hard to think you wouldn't notice that kind of oil loss???

Get a buddy to ride behind you and see if they notice anything?
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:13 PM
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So to get back on topic after that brief intermission....

If any of you would like to know more about why I have the theory (and yes it is just a theory like I stated when I first posted it) of how the intermittent oil consumption can be caused by the ring gaps lining up, I would be happy to write it up.

It is rather simple and quite logical if you look at things like, number of pistons, engine displacement & crankcase volume.

Also, at least on my bike, each and every time, I have had this happen there have been traces of oil in the airbox.

So it is on of those things of, if it is not leaking out it has to be going somewhere. Plus why does it only do it intermittently? As on mine it will do it once in a while and then just stop. If it was caused by a seal or ring failure I can not see how it would stop once it starts.

If anyone else has a theory of why this can happen, I would like to hear it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 8541Hawk View Post
Back to ignore for you, Why , well because I just don't have time for your petty personal vendettas.
Come on, put the movie back on!!



I really enjoy the back and forth between yous guys.



You seem to actually agree after a certain point, just certain little minor things seem to cause a snag.

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Old 07-18-2012, 01:54 PM
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Does oil enter the airbox through the crankcase ventilation system?
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:01 PM
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That's what I heard...but just don't know cause there's no pooling. An It's not intermittent, its a steady decline over time. But yes, its more pronounced on long rides it seems, as compared to a few miles here an there around town...
An no seepage either. You wipe clean, it stays clean...
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BeerHunter View Post
Does oil enter the airbox through the crankcase ventilation system?
My .02 to that question is yes. I had my a-box off about a dozen times in the past couple months and would discover some oil. I wiped it out and checked the ventilation tube coming from the front cylinder. It would have oil in it, also.

That's my experience with this situation. It's intermittent, but definitely does occur.

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Old 07-18-2012, 04:03 PM
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Geesh, finding a solution to the turmoil in the Middle East may be easier...

If low oil level readings are intermittent, or "inconsistent", has anyone gone back to the related thread I referenced? The only relatively easy way to verify oil loss is to drain the oil & filter (see "my" thread"). Because IMO, the oil may not be going anywhere but is trapped in the crankcase and top end.

And the CCB system has a catch bottle in the air box and the oil vapor is supposed to be ingested back through the carburetors but some oil solids due accumulate outside the catch bottle due to sustained high rpm running, with extended closed-throttle high rpm deceleration contributing to this accumulation. The fairly simplistic and ineffective CCB system defiantly can be contributing to oil "consumption". Do some reading on the subject, in particular on larger twins (aka HD and older Bitish "iron"). Even John Britten (RIP) even mused long about this problem.


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Old 07-18-2012, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BeerHunter View Post
Does oil enter the airbox through the crankcase ventilation system?
Yes that is why there is always some oil loss. What I was talking about is the times the bike will all of a sudden lose a 1\2 quart or so after a ride.

Then go back to not using oil except for the very minor amount they all seem to lose.
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