New SHINDENGEN FH020AA, New PROBLEMS!
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SuperBike
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,707
From: Essex, UK
Should about $15 new or a bit less second hand from ebay (same Neutral Switch fits most Hondas from the the 90s)
Where Used Tool
Where Used Tool
Last edited by Wicky; Jul 8, 2012 at 01:00 PM.
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Superstock
Joined: Jan 2012
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From: ABE PA
Just checked the starter relay switch.
When I check for ground between the grn/red wire and chassis...nothing. no continuity. Meaning...what?
Starter relay voltage registered only when I pushed the start button...but worked.
And when I did the operation check at the bottom of section 18-10 pg 341, it sparked a lil and tried to fire up? Manual doesnt say anything about starting...just testing for voltage? Like I say, WTF?!
Oh and the clutch diode tested good. Resistance only one way.
When I check for ground between the grn/red wire and chassis...nothing. no continuity. Meaning...what?
Starter relay voltage registered only when I pushed the start button...but worked.
And when I did the operation check at the bottom of section 18-10 pg 341, it sparked a lil and tried to fire up? Manual doesnt say anything about starting...just testing for voltage? Like I say, WTF?!
Oh and the clutch diode tested good. Resistance only one way.
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From: ABE PA
OK I think I may have cracked this one...
So the engine was on, purrin lika kitten...And I purposely fiddled with the neutral switch wire connection. The engine cut off! Then I tested the continuity right afterward in neutral, wheel spinning freely. None! No green light! So I think I found the culprit...
Anyone care to verify? Uhhh..somehow? LOL
So the engine was on, purrin lika kitten...And I purposely fiddled with the neutral switch wire connection. The engine cut off! Then I tested the continuity right afterward in neutral, wheel spinning freely. None! No green light! So I think I found the culprit...
Anyone care to verify? Uhhh..somehow? LOL
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From: San Antonio, TX
So you are trying to convince me that the sidestand switch is grounded up under your ****, and not by a point around the sidestand itself? I'd adwise you to go have a look at your bike...
Face it, the wiring diagram is a schematic overview, it shows about half of the actual ground points to begin with, and the only reason for the short loop of ground wire around the R/R is what I stated above... When you unplug the battery, the charged components in the R/R need to discharge... To make life easier on the other components that dislike pulses, it has it's own dedicate wire to bypass them...
The bike runs fine with it completely disconnected, or even cut off where it connects to the wire harness... But you risk frying stuff if you disconnect the battery directly after running the engine and it's not connected, unlikely but could happen...
It could also be completely corroded, it wouldn't matter to the running of the bike...
Face it, the wiring diagram is a schematic overview, it shows about half of the actual ground points to begin with, and the only reason for the short loop of ground wire around the R/R is what I stated above... When you unplug the battery, the charged components in the R/R need to discharge... To make life easier on the other components that dislike pulses, it has it's own dedicate wire to bypass them...
The bike runs fine with it completely disconnected, or even cut off where it connects to the wire harness... But you risk frying stuff if you disconnect the battery directly after running the engine and it's not connected, unlikely but could happen...
It could also be completely corroded, it wouldn't matter to the running of the bike...
I did have another look at my bike. The wiring has not changed much in the last 9 years. I even pulled out my spare, unmolested wiring harness. It has precisely 2 ring terminals for grounding and is exactly as shown in the diagram from the factory service manual.
The battery negative terminal runs to the engine block. It is a single wire and the regulator does not tie into it anywhere.
The 2 ring terminals are:
1 - on the right radiator housing. This provides the harness grounds with a path back to the battery through the engine. It is a small wire and not adequate to flow return current for the entire system. It does provide enough ground the fan and some other components.
2 - on the subframe. This terminal has 2 wires attached. One larger which feeds most of the return current, and a smaller wire that does the same but from a separate set of circuits.
These 2 points are the only choices that the wires have to get back to the battery, ground control switches aside.
Also, the regulator negative terminal does not ground to it's case internally. Therefore, the current MUST flow from the regulator negative, then through the harness, and back to either the subframe or the radiator before getting back to the engine and then the battery. It could also flow back through a closed neutral switch.
If the subframe is painted and the mounting points to the engine are not making good contact, then all the current must flow back through the radiator ground. This could be enough flow to overheat the wire and cause it to lose conductivity, especially if the regulator output is too high.
The only other path would be through a closed grounding switch that is mounted on the engine, such as the neutral switch. This wire and switch could be overloaded as well.
The side stand switch is a ground operating switch, but it only takes it's ground from the harness.
Is it not possible that the ground circuit is overloaded?
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Superstock
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From: ABE PA
Beerman, good call on the neutral switch/side stand switch relation...But the side stand tested ok...maybe I'll get another one for good measure if it doesn't cost too much. But I'll verify things tonight.
And I looked around myself for ground points...couldn't locate the one by the right radiator you speak of...the only ground I found is the one I made for the fan thermo switch upgrade. But I'll poke around some more.
And since I figured I'd be waiting another week for parts, I picked up an axillary cigg outlet from radio shack...I just gotta wire strait from battery to ground, right? Nothing fancy needed? It's got an in-line fuse...
And thanks to all for the fantastic help...its user generated info on forums like this that empower each owner to learn more and save $$$!!!
And I looked around myself for ground points...couldn't locate the one by the right radiator you speak of...the only ground I found is the one I made for the fan thermo switch upgrade. But I'll poke around some more.
And since I figured I'd be waiting another week for parts, I picked up an axillary cigg outlet from radio shack...I just gotta wire strait from battery to ground, right? Nothing fancy needed? It's got an in-line fuse...
And thanks to all for the fantastic help...its user generated info on forums like this that empower each owner to learn more and save $$$!!!
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From: San Antonio, TX
Yep, mount the power outlet where you want it...run red wire > inline fuse > batt + at the battery or starter solenoid...run black wire to batt - or any clean metal bolt. You will have constant power so do not leave anything plugged in very long with the engine not running.
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From: ABE PA
Sweet man thanks for that...I tried to have the weld guy at work plastic-weld the cigg outlet mount to the outside gauge cover...didnt work and he almost fu@ked it up pretty good.
But we saved it an sanded it out. Doesn't look too sh1tty. Then I rough sanded the surfaces. I'll epoxy it an cross my fingers...keep my eye open for a new gauge cluster cover LOL live an learn
But we saved it an sanded it out. Doesn't look too sh1tty. Then I rough sanded the surfaces. I'll epoxy it an cross my fingers...keep my eye open for a new gauge cluster cover LOL live an learn
Out of my mind, back in 5
MotoGP
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
I'm not sure what to make of your analysis Tweety. Either the wiring harness on the FireStorm differs significantly from the SuperHawk, or your bike has been modified so far from stock that you do not care to see how it was once wired.
I did have another look at my bike. The wiring has not changed much in the last 9 years. I even pulled out my spare, unmolested wiring harness. It has precisely 2 ring terminals for grounding and is exactly as shown in the diagram from the factory service manual.
The battery negative terminal runs to the engine block. It is a single wire and the regulator does not tie into it anywhere.
The 2 ring terminals are:
1 - on the right radiator housing. This provides the harness grounds with a path back to the battery through the engine. It is a small wire and not adequate to flow return current for the entire system. It does provide enough ground the fan and some other components.
2 - on the subframe. This terminal has 2 wires attached. One larger which feeds most of the return current, and a smaller wire that does the same but from a separate set of circuits.
These 2 points are the only choices that the wires have to get back to the battery, ground control switches aside.
Also, the regulator negative terminal does not ground to it's case internally. Therefore, the current MUST flow from the regulator negative, then through the harness, and back to either the subframe or the radiator before getting back to the engine and then the battery. It could also flow back through a closed neutral switch.
If the subframe is painted and the mounting points to the engine are not making good contact, then all the current must flow back through the radiator ground. This could be enough flow to overheat the wire and cause it to lose conductivity, especially if the regulator output is too high.
The only other path would be through a closed grounding switch that is mounted on the engine, such as the neutral switch. This wire and switch could be overloaded as well.
The side stand switch is a ground operating switch, but it only takes it's ground from the harness.
Is it not possible that the ground circuit is overloaded?
I did have another look at my bike. The wiring has not changed much in the last 9 years. I even pulled out my spare, unmolested wiring harness. It has precisely 2 ring terminals for grounding and is exactly as shown in the diagram from the factory service manual.
The battery negative terminal runs to the engine block. It is a single wire and the regulator does not tie into it anywhere.
The 2 ring terminals are:
1 - on the right radiator housing. This provides the harness grounds with a path back to the battery through the engine. It is a small wire and not adequate to flow return current for the entire system. It does provide enough ground the fan and some other components.
2 - on the subframe. This terminal has 2 wires attached. One larger which feeds most of the return current, and a smaller wire that does the same but from a separate set of circuits.
These 2 points are the only choices that the wires have to get back to the battery, ground control switches aside.
Also, the regulator negative terminal does not ground to it's case internally. Therefore, the current MUST flow from the regulator negative, then through the harness, and back to either the subframe or the radiator before getting back to the engine and then the battery. It could also flow back through a closed neutral switch.
If the subframe is painted and the mounting points to the engine are not making good contact, then all the current must flow back through the radiator ground. This could be enough flow to overheat the wire and cause it to lose conductivity, especially if the regulator output is too high.
The only other path would be through a closed grounding switch that is mounted on the engine, such as the neutral switch. This wire and switch could be overloaded as well.
The side stand switch is a ground operating switch, but it only takes it's ground from the harness.
Is it not possible that the ground circuit is overloaded?
And Yes, my main bike has absolutely 0 parts of the stock harness left as it made me walk home sometime last season, which pissed me off to the point where I re-wired it from the ground up the way it should be done, not Honda's cheap *** way...
But that aside, there are a couple of more ground points, not just the ground switches... But yes, those are the main ones... However, since you are trying to convince me about this particular ground wire, feel free to point it out on the schematic if you can find it... It's not there on the one in the Honda service manual, it's not there in the Haynes manual, and it's not there on either of these two colored ones... But then neither are the ground point by the headligth, just to name one out of memory, there are others...
BTW, you can see the exact differences on the EU vs. US on these if you like...
Firestorm - EU - http://tweety.se/download.php?file=V..._Firestorm.jpg
Superhawk - US - http://tweety.se/download.php?file=VTR1000F_Superhawk.jpg
Now, to clarify this beyond the point where you anyone can misunderstand it even on purpose... Read my posts, I'm the forums biggest chaimpion for checking ground... I never, ever did say the grounding wasn't a likley culprit, it should definitely be looked at all over the bike...
I did however say that the single wire close to the R/R makes absolutely zero difference, bubkiss, njet, nada difference to how the bike runs, ie look at other places to solve the running issues first... But then, YES, fix the ground issues that is probably the root cause to the R/R being faulty in the first place...
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Superstock
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From: ABE PA
Ground still to blame, huh? Damn...maybe I should add some auxiliary grounding points to spread some current around?
Anyway, here is a pic of the neutral switch good (left) and faulty. The old one still worked, I just think that the flattened surface may have had something to do with the faulty readings:
Anyway, here is a pic of the neutral switch good (left) and faulty. The old one still worked, I just think that the flattened surface may have had something to do with the faulty readings:
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From: San Antonio, TX
Or you could just remove one upper sub frame mounting bolt, grind the paint off the outer mating surface, and thread the bolt back in and tighten. This should be enough to permit a good ground back to the frame > engine > battery. It would be best to have no paint on the inside and outside of both upper mounts.
The right radiator mount bracket bolt is on the inside upper. You can get to it from the front, but the fairing may be in the way.
Is the bolt over the green wire tight enough so that you cannot rotate the regulator?
But that aside, there are a couple of more ground points, not just the ground switches... But yes, those are the main ones... However, since you are trying to convince me about this particular ground wire, feel free to point it out on the schematic if you can find it... It's not there on the one in the Honda service manual, it's not there in the Haynes manual, and it's not there on either of these two colored ones... But then neither are the ground point by the headligth, just to name one out of memory, there are others...
BTW, you can see the exact differences on the EU vs. US on these if you like...
Now, to clarify this beyond the point where you anyone can misunderstand it even on purpose... Read my posts, I'm the forums biggest chaimpion for checking ground... I never, ever did say the grounding wasn't a likley culprit, it should definitely be looked at all over the bike...
I did however say that the single wire close to the R/R makes absolutely zero difference, bubkiss, njet, nada difference to how the bike runs, ie look at other places to solve the running issues first... But then, YES, fix the ground issues that is probably the root cause to the R/R being faulty in the first place...
It is positioned on the diagram directly between the fuel sensor and the speed sensor. It is the same on both charts you provided as well as all 4 that I have from the Honda service manuals, 2 revisions including US and other countries.
The sub frame harness ground on my bike has 2 wires, not simply a single wire as you stated. A large green and a smaller green/black stripe are both crimped to the factory ring terminal. This is as shown in the diagrams.
My bike has no ground wire near the headlight, unless you are talking about the one on the right radiator. It is kinda close to the headlight.
Now, what I see is this. The harness has one main ground point. There is a second ground on the radiator, but this part has rubber mounts, so it is not a good ground path. The neutral switch will feed ground when it is closed (transmission in neutral). But, put it in gear and then the only path back to the battery is sub frame > frame > engine. If you remove this path that "makes absolutely zero difference" then do not be upset at the bike when it leaves you stuck on the side of the road with burnt wires and electronics. You should have known better. With a system that may have insufficient grounding to begin with, removing a part of that system is not smart. Removing the PRIMARY ground point is considerably less than not smart.
If you try to fix everything else that seems to be wrong first, and then address the root cause last... you are simply taking the more costly repair route.
Last edited by BeerHunter; Jul 10, 2012 at 08:03 PM.
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From: Phoenix, AZ
Wait, that BS doesn't happen on Firestorms? I threw in an aux switch so my HID didn't switch on and of every time I hit the starter!
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Pg 19-20 of the service manual shows how the switch works.
Those wires are for the headlight and have continuity when the switch is free and it breaks continuity when you push the switch, turning off the headlight
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From: ABE PA
Isn't that to help focus battery power to starting the engine? I figured that was a good thing (I think cages do it too)...If the battery happened to be low...I'd rather it start than my headlight stay on!
And ummm....to wrap this thread up.
Found out that it was indeed my side stand switch screwing things up too, in CONJUNCTION with the neutral switch. And I believe the R/R succumbed to its own shitty design. The plastic body itself was all melted and warped when I tore it apart out of morbid curiosity.
So after replacing the neutral switch, the stand switch is jumped for now so I can reduce down-time while I scout out a cheap alternative.
I will find one...and NEW too....
And ummm....to wrap this thread up.
Found out that it was indeed my side stand switch screwing things up too, in CONJUNCTION with the neutral switch. And I believe the R/R succumbed to its own shitty design. The plastic body itself was all melted and warped when I tore it apart out of morbid curiosity.
So after replacing the neutral switch, the stand switch is jumped for now so I can reduce down-time while I scout out a cheap alternative.
I will find one...and NEW too....
Out of my mind, back in 5
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,109
From: Skurup, Sweden
Isn't that to help focus battery power to starting the engine? I figured that was a good thing (I think cages do it too)...If the battery happened to be low...I'd rather it start than my headlight stay on!
And ummm....to wrap this thread up.
Found out that it was indeed my side stand switch screwing things up too, in CONJUNCTION with the neutral switch. And I believe the R/R succumbed to its own shitty design. The plastic body itself was all melted and warped when I tore it apart out of morbid curiosity.
So after replacing the neutral switch, the stand switch is jumped for now so I can reduce down-time while I scout out a cheap alternative.
I will find one...and NEW too....
And ummm....to wrap this thread up.
Found out that it was indeed my side stand switch screwing things up too, in CONJUNCTION with the neutral switch. And I believe the R/R succumbed to its own shitty design. The plastic body itself was all melted and warped when I tore it apart out of morbid curiosity.
So after replacing the neutral switch, the stand switch is jumped for now so I can reduce down-time while I scout out a cheap alternative.
I will find one...and NEW too....
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