need help with integrated tail light
07-10-2012, 08:23 PM
#1
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need help with integrated tail light
I noticed this morning that sometimes when I turn on my right blinker, the blinker light on the dash is very dim. I checked the tail light and noticed that when the right blinker is activated the right half of the red leds blink instead of alternating to the yellow leds. The left side works as designed. I did not change anything on the bike or light.
The right blinker hooks up to the blue wire in the harness. When trying other plugs in the harness, I get solid yellow on the right when plugged into the brown wire so I know the leds are not burned out.
The light used to work correctly, so it is a recent issue. I know nothing about circuit boards and the like, so I can't really so any testing or trouble shooting. Any tips or suggestions?
The right blinker hooks up to the blue wire in the harness. When trying other plugs in the harness, I get solid yellow on the right when plugged into the brown wire so I know the leds are not burned out.
The light used to work correctly, so it is a recent issue. I know nothing about circuit boards and the like, so I can't really so any testing or trouble shooting. Any tips or suggestions?
07-10-2012, 08:32 PM
#2
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You at least need a test light to be sure your wires are getting the pulsing 12v. Then you have to give power to the tail light wires to make sure it lights correctly if given correct power.
Sounds like your light crapped out but fwiw, those things make motorcyling more dangerous than it already is since I have seen them in action and in no way believed that it was indicating a turn (or exit) and neither did the car that almost hit him.
Why stack the deck against yourself? Maybe its a sign from God.
Sounds like your light crapped out but fwiw, those things make motorcyling more dangerous than it already is since I have seen them in action and in no way believed that it was indicating a turn (or exit) and neither did the car that almost hit him.
Why stack the deck against yourself? Maybe its a sign from God.
07-10-2012, 09:20 PM
#3
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You at least need a test light to be sure your wires are getting the pulsing 12v. Then you have to give power to the tail light wires to make sure it lights correctly if given correct power.
Sounds like your light crapped out but fwiw, those things make motorcyling more dangerous than it already is since I have seen them in action and in no way believed that it was indicating a turn (or exit) and neither did the car that almost hit him.
Why stack the deck against yourself? Maybe its a sign from God.
Sounds like your light crapped out but fwiw, those things make motorcyling more dangerous than it already is since I have seen them in action and in no way believed that it was indicating a turn (or exit) and neither did the car that almost hit him.
Why stack the deck against yourself? Maybe its a sign from God.
As for the safety, I understand there is the possibility of not being seen, but I ride as if I am invisible to the other cars. If I came into contact with another vehicle, the fault will be mine and not because I was not seen. I have seen some shoddy integrated lights, but I feel that the one I have makes my intentions more than clear.
This is what it should look like with the left blinker on (flashing yellow-red-yellow-etc of course)
Instead, the right flashes the right half of these lights, always red
The brakes illuminate every led in bright red.
If someone can't understand my intentions from those, they should not be driving.
07-10-2012, 09:32 PM
#4
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Yeah I would say the majority of people out there should NOT be driving. But there is no argueing with steel, and their wrongness wont bring those legs back when their gone so I figure get any advantage you can. Kind of like atgatt.
Of course my 2 broken colarbones and 7 broken ribs helped me to come to this enlightened state too.
Of course my 2 broken colarbones and 7 broken ribs helped me to come to this enlightened state too.
07-10-2012, 09:54 PM
#5
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What model tail light is that? Looks like a Clear Alternatives. What type of wire connectors are used for each of the wires on the integrated unit?
Is the right front signal flashing at the same brightness as the left front?
When the rear flashes on red, is the front flashing off? As in, flashing alternately instead of synchronously?
Pull the tail light fuse and try again. Should be #5 10 Amp. Does the rear now flash yellow in synch with the front while the tail light circuit is disabled?
I have had similar problems with trailer lights. The cause has usually been a poor or broken ground connection.
Is the right front signal flashing at the same brightness as the left front?
When the rear flashes on red, is the front flashing off? As in, flashing alternately instead of synchronously?
Pull the tail light fuse and try again. Should be #5 10 Amp. Does the rear now flash yellow in synch with the front while the tail light circuit is disabled?
I have had similar problems with trailer lights. The cause has usually been a poor or broken ground connection.
07-10-2012, 09:56 PM
#6
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While they look ok they were never worth the hassle of giving the police something to pull you over for at any time.
Vehicle code in CA says the turn signals are supposed to be 18" apart.
So to be a little on topic, I have no idea why it is acting up on you but like most SH electrical issues of something that just stops working, check your grounds first.
Vehicle code in CA says the turn signals are supposed to be 18" apart.
So to be a little on topic, I have no idea why it is acting up on you but like most SH electrical issues of something that just stops working, check your grounds first.
07-10-2012, 11:51 PM
#7
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I don't have front turn signals. I got my hawk with the front mount holes shaved and integrated mirrors, but both mirrors were folded down and tore the wires out of them.
And no, there is no CA VC section that gives a minimum spacing of blinkers. You will find that form CHP888 states that front blinkers be a minimum of 16 inches and rear a minimum of 9 inches, citing CA VC 24591-3. Read those three sections and you will find that the minimum spacing listed on CHP888 is not in the vehicle code, but was added by CHP to their own form. CHP is not legislative and has no law making abilities, so those requirements are void.
You will find a federal requirement of the CHP listed sizes, however that requirement is pertaining to manufacturing requirements and not to operating requirements.
FMVSS Section 108 Table IV
I will check grounds as well. The connectors are the same male/female plugs that are on the harness.
And no, there is no CA VC section that gives a minimum spacing of blinkers. You will find that form CHP888 states that front blinkers be a minimum of 16 inches and rear a minimum of 9 inches, citing CA VC 24591-3. Read those three sections and you will find that the minimum spacing listed on CHP888 is not in the vehicle code, but was added by CHP to their own form. CHP is not legislative and has no law making abilities, so those requirements are void.
You will find a federal requirement of the CHP listed sizes, however that requirement is pertaining to manufacturing requirements and not to operating requirements.
FMVSS Section 108 Table IV
I will check grounds as well. The connectors are the same male/female plugs that are on the harness.
07-11-2012, 06:52 PM
#8
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Ok, so if i read your post correctly the turn signal wires for the mirrors were torn, If thats the case have you properly insulated or disconnected the front turn signal wires? If not you could be shorting to ground causing the dimming...
07-11-2012, 07:49 PM
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What you are missing is this from CHP888 is this: "Additional regulations pertaining to lights and devices extracted from California Code of Regulations, Title 13 (13 CCR) are incorporated" So just because it is not spelled out in the VC doesn't mean it is not the law.
They can still also write you for either non dot lighting or section 24252 (1) No turn signal lamp may be combined optically with a stoplamp unless the stoplamp is extinguished when the turn signal is flashing. As the tail light is one unit so only 1\2 of the stop lamp turns off...
And If you want to argue with the CHP officer that pulls you over for it that there requirements are void, more power to you.
I have seen many tickets written for those lights, so personally I would never bother with one as it is just too easy to get pulled over.
They can still also write you for either non dot lighting or section 24252 (1) No turn signal lamp may be combined optically with a stoplamp unless the stoplamp is extinguished when the turn signal is flashing. As the tail light is one unit so only 1\2 of the stop lamp turns off...
And If you want to argue with the CHP officer that pulls you over for it that there requirements are void, more power to you.
I have seen many tickets written for those lights, so personally I would never bother with one as it is just too easy to get pulled over.
07-11-2012, 09:11 PM
#10
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What you are missing is this from CHP888 is this: "Additional regulations pertaining to lights and devices extracted from California Code of Regulations, Title 13 (13 CCR) are incorporated" So just because it is not spelled out in the VC doesn't mean it is not the law.
They can still also write you for either non dot lighting or section 24252 (1) No turn signal lamp may be combined optically with a stoplamp unless the stoplamp is extinguished when the turn signal is flashing. As the tail light is one unit so only 1\2 of the stop lamp turns off...
And If you want to argue with the CHP officer that pulls you over for it that there requirements are void, more power to you.
I have seen many tickets written for those lights, so personally I would never bother with one as it is just too easy to get pulled over.
They can still also write you for either non dot lighting or section 24252 (1) No turn signal lamp may be combined optically with a stoplamp unless the stoplamp is extinguished when the turn signal is flashing. As the tail light is one unit so only 1\2 of the stop lamp turns off...
And If you want to argue with the CHP officer that pulls you over for it that there requirements are void, more power to you.
I have seen many tickets written for those lights, so personally I would never bother with one as it is just too easy to get pulled over.
CCR is administrative law. Essentially, administrative law is the body of law that governs the activities of administration agencies of government. It can be argued that CCR Title 13 Division 2 Chapter 2 Article 7 (which CHP888 uses as citation) regulates the equipment required of a vehicle to be manufactured for sale in California. Other government sources can choose to adopt sections of the CCR, however the VC has not adopted this article, thus rendering enforcement of Title 13 to the DOT and not a state militia.
As for arguing with a chp officer, that is not the way to do it. I have no problem explaining why I believe I should not be cited, but in the end I would accept the ticket and present my case in court, giving the facts I have posted.
VC 24252 can also be argued that the left side and right side of the light are in fact two seperate stop lamps in a common housing. With the blinker on, the lights flash between yellow blinker lights and red running lights. With the brake lights on and a blinker on, the stomp lamp on the respective side of the blinker does not come on, but rather illuminates the opposite side with the brake lights and alternates the remaining side between blinker and running light. So the stop lamp combined with the blinker is extinguished.
I will post my findings with the test light when I get a chance to dig it out. As stated before I know nothing of circuit boards, but would there be some kind of a relay or other component on the board that is not functioning and causing the lights not to flash?
07-12-2012, 08:13 AM
#11
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you need a different flasher relay. it works off the ground and will cause weird issues when they act weird. you can iether get a digital one off of ebay (they take a couple seconds to activate after the bike is fired up) or i can get you the part number for the mechanical one off of my bike today. it will require you wire new ends on your bike but it works great with led's.
flasher relays like on the hawk are draw based, thats why leds cause fast flash, but then after a while the flasher goes wonky. yes, this will cause other lights to activate or not activate when the blinker is turned on. and it will take a long time and cause you to pull your hair out if you have at it with a test light. ive fixed countless bikes with issues like this on led tails.
flasher relays like on the hawk are draw based, thats why leds cause fast flash, but then after a while the flasher goes wonky. yes, this will cause other lights to activate or not activate when the blinker is turned on. and it will take a long time and cause you to pull your hair out if you have at it with a test light. ive fixed countless bikes with issues like this on led tails.
Last edited by Zedicus; 07-12-2012 at 08:20 AM.
07-12-2012, 08:36 AM
#12
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you need a different flasher relay. it works off the ground and will cause weird issues when they act weird. you can iether get a digital one off of ebay (they take a couple seconds to activate after the bike is fired up) or i can get you the part number for the mechanical one off of my bike today. it will require you wire new ends on your bike but it works great with led's.
flasher relays like on the hawk are draw based, thats why leds cause fast flash, but then after a while the flasher goes wonky.
flasher relays like on the hawk are draw based, thats why leds cause fast flash, but then after a while the flasher goes wonky.
07-12-2012, 09:40 AM
#13
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find a 12 volt, non blinking power supply (direct wires to the battery or a wall wart from a random device) and unplug EVERY wire to the tail light and test every bulb one at a time. if they all light up they all work.
swapping lights around only moves the issue around.
swapping lights around only moves the issue around.
07-12-2012, 10:05 AM
#14
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All of the bulbs work, that is not the issue. the issue is that the wrong lights are flashing (the red running lights instead of yellow blinker lights) when the right signal is activated. That is what leads me to beleive it is a component of the circuit board not switching the yellow lights on.
07-12-2012, 11:13 AM
#15
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All of the bulbs work, that is not the issue. the issue is that the wrong lights are flashing (the red running lights instead of yellow blinker lights) when the right signal is activated. That is what leads me to beleive it is a component of the circuit board not switching the yellow lights on.
i even had a similar issue on a 1982 honda ascot just 2 weeks ago. with an integrated LEd tail from an RC51. activating one of the blinkers caused the red to flash and no yellow at all on one side, then the other side worked fine. hunting around with a test light will not demonstrate the issue.
if youve verified that each light segment works individually in the led tail light, then it works, and it is NOT the issue.
(sorry iff that comes off as standofish, didnt meen for it too)
Last edited by Zedicus; 07-12-2012 at 11:17 AM.
07-12-2012, 06:31 PM
#16
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thats not how that tail works. the bike controls it. the board just routes power to the leds and is HIGHLY susceptible to strange issues caused by failing, floating, random ground.
i even had a similar issue on a 1982 honda ascot just 2 weeks ago. with an integrated LEd tail from an RC51. activating one of the blinkers caused the red to flash and no yellow at all on one side, then the other side worked fine. hunting around with a test light will not demonstrate the issue.
if youve verified that each light segment works individually in the led tail light, then it works, and it is NOT the issue.
(sorry iff that comes off as standofish, didnt meen for it too)
i even had a similar issue on a 1982 honda ascot just 2 weeks ago. with an integrated LEd tail from an RC51. activating one of the blinkers caused the red to flash and no yellow at all on one side, then the other side worked fine. hunting around with a test light will not demonstrate the issue.
if youve verified that each light segment works individually in the led tail light, then it works, and it is NOT the issue.
(sorry iff that comes off as standofish, didnt meen for it too)
The reason that I think it is the light is that I can get all bulbs to light up, and both harness side wires are sending power. so I figure that if the bike is sending power, then the light is not directing that power to the correct source. I tried different combinations of hook ups, and I could not get the right side to blink at all, only light up solid yellow. I do have the stock rear blinkers at home, I will hook one up to the front to see if the right side blinks at all.
So what youre saying is a faulty relay? Any way for me to test this?
07-12-2012, 09:36 PM
#17
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Update:
Apparently the lights are working correctly, just very dim on the right yellow lights. I couldn't see it before standing up in the day, but I had a chance to take a look in a dark place tonight and saw that its working fine.
So new question, bad light or bad relay? The right blinker wire was putting out around 12v peak and the left about 9v peak.
Apparently the lights are working correctly, just very dim on the right yellow lights. I couldn't see it before standing up in the day, but I had a chance to take a look in a dark place tonight and saw that its working fine.
So new question, bad light or bad relay? The right blinker wire was putting out around 12v peak and the left about 9v peak.
07-13-2012, 06:45 AM
#18
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if you have hooked that side up to a solid 12v source and it looked right, then its something wrong with the bike. easiest way to test the relay is to take it out and wire around it. the blinkers won't blink but they will turn on and you will be able to test the switches and wiring. if all that stuff works, you need a different relay. do not replace it with another stock relay.
07-13-2012, 09:27 AM
#19
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I disagree that the signal relay could be at fault. It has 3 wires. One takes power from the fuse, another grounds to the main harness, and the third runs directly to the handlebar switch. From there the switch controls the flow of current either right or left.
If the signal relay is malfunctioning then both signal directions should have the same symptoms.
Check voltage at the front signal wires. If the readings are the same as at the rear, then the switch has corroded contacts, or maybe even a wire connector is making bad contact. I think the switch can be made to work with electrical contact cleaner, if it is the problem.
When you are measuring voltage right and left, where are you placing the ground probe?
Did you mix up right and left in this statement? If the right side is not working correctly I would be surprised to find low voltage on the left wire.
If the signal relay is malfunctioning then both signal directions should have the same symptoms.
Check voltage at the front signal wires. If the readings are the same as at the rear, then the switch has corroded contacts, or maybe even a wire connector is making bad contact. I think the switch can be made to work with electrical contact cleaner, if it is the problem.
When you are measuring voltage right and left, where are you placing the ground probe?
Did you mix up right and left in this statement? If the right side is not working correctly I would be surprised to find low voltage on the left wire.
07-13-2012, 09:48 AM
#20
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I disagree that the signal relay could be at fault. It has 3 wires. One takes power from the fuse, another grounds to the main harness, and the third runs directly to the handlebar switch. From there the switch controls the flow of current either right or left.
If the signal relay is malfunctioning then both signal directions should have the same symptoms.
Check voltage at the front signal wires. If the readings are the same as at the rear, then the switch has corroded contacts, or maybe even a wire connector is making bad contact. I think the switch can be made to work with electrical contact cleaner, if it is the problem.
When you are measuring voltage right and left, where are you placing the ground probe?
Did you mix up right and left in this statement? If the right side is not working correctly I would be surprised to find low voltage on the left wire.
If the signal relay is malfunctioning then both signal directions should have the same symptoms.
Check voltage at the front signal wires. If the readings are the same as at the rear, then the switch has corroded contacts, or maybe even a wire connector is making bad contact. I think the switch can be made to work with electrical contact cleaner, if it is the problem.
When you are measuring voltage right and left, where are you placing the ground probe?
Did you mix up right and left in this statement? If the right side is not working correctly I would be surprised to find low voltage on the left wire.
i agree that it SHOULD have the same issue on both blinkers if the relay is the issue. HOWEVER, more then once, i have seen that NOT be the case.
07-13-2012, 11:11 AM
#21
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I disagree that the signal relay could be at fault. It has 3 wires. One takes power from the fuse, another grounds to the main harness, and the third runs directly to the handlebar switch. From there the switch controls the flow of current either right or left.
If the signal relay is malfunctioning then both signal directions should have the same symptoms.
Check voltage at the front signal wires. If the readings are the same as at the rear, then the switch has corroded contacts, or maybe even a wire connector is making bad contact. I think the switch can be made to work with electrical contact cleaner, if it is the problem.
When you are measuring voltage right and left, where are you placing the ground probe?
Did you mix up right and left in this statement? If the right side is not working correctly I would be surprised to find low voltage on the left wire.
If the signal relay is malfunctioning then both signal directions should have the same symptoms.
Check voltage at the front signal wires. If the readings are the same as at the rear, then the switch has corroded contacts, or maybe even a wire connector is making bad contact. I think the switch can be made to work with electrical contact cleaner, if it is the problem.
When you are measuring voltage right and left, where are you placing the ground probe?
Did you mix up right and left in this statement? If the right side is not working correctly I would be surprised to find low voltage on the left wire.
The voltage readings are correct, they threw me off too. I used the r/r mount bolt as a ground.
07-13-2012, 11:34 AM
#23
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I missed this. The wire tore out of the mirror, the harness wires are fine, the connectors I wrapped in shrink wrap to keep moisture out since they aren't hooked up.
07-13-2012, 01:04 PM
#24
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i use hawk electrics on my ascot, they are not the BEST bet they are simple and reliable. (compared to the 30 yr old bikes stock switches)
07-13-2012, 01:52 PM
#25
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Zedicus, since I have little experience with LED lighting, I cannot attest to what you have found to work while fixing other bikes. But I am confused by some things you have said and how it all relates to this bike.
Are you saying that the signal relay on the SuperHawk pulses the ground side of the circuit in order to flash the lights?
This sounds more like a bad relay than a switch problem, and as Hawk stated it is probably caused by under loading of the circuits.
You may have more than one problem going on here. I agree wtih Zed that the relay should be replaced with one designed to work with LEDs, just not sure about his assessment of the symptoms. I cannot grasp how it could happen given the way this bike is wired.
I agree with his method of testing the problem by removing the relay from the equation. You would need to jump the White/Green wire to the Gray on that connector.
You said the integrator plugs in same as stock? So, no wire taps were installed? And you have 2 ground wires connected on each side?
You may have more than one problem going on here. I agree wtih Zed that the relay should be replaced with one designed to work with LEDs, just not sure about his assessment of the symptoms. I cannot grasp how it could happen given the way this bike is wired.
I agree with his method of testing the problem by removing the relay from the equation. You would need to jump the White/Green wire to the Gray on that connector.
You said the integrator plugs in same as stock? So, no wire taps were installed? And you have 2 ground wires connected on each side?
07-13-2012, 02:16 PM
#26
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As Zedicus pointed out, you should get an electronic flasher. If you had front turn signals you would find that they are flashing at different rates from your rear one too. They way to fix it is to replace the flasher unit with an electronic one.
I have a Clear Alternatives rear light/blinker combo plus Proton flashers at all the corners and everything flashes at the same rate with my electronic flasher unit.
http://www.hightechspeed.com/products/ELF2/index.asp
I have a Clear Alternatives rear light/blinker combo plus Proton flashers at all the corners and everything flashes at the same rate with my electronic flasher unit.
http://www.hightechspeed.com/products/ELF2/index.asp
Last edited by RWhisen; 07-13-2012 at 02:19 PM.
07-13-2012, 03:01 PM
#27
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As Zedicus pointed out, you should get an electronic flasher. If you had front turn signals you would find that they are flashing at different rates from your rear one too. They way to fix it is to replace the flasher unit with an electronic one.
I have a Clear Alternatives rear light/blinker combo plus Proton flashers at all the corners and everything flashes at the same rate with my electronic flasher unit.
HighTechSpeed - motorcycle high technology
I have a Clear Alternatives rear light/blinker combo plus Proton flashers at all the corners and everything flashes at the same rate with my electronic flasher unit.
HighTechSpeed - motorcycle high technology
i don't think the hawk relay pulses to ground, i think it pulses open circuit. i havent had to deal with the stock relay in a long time. digital relays don't really do either, they are a enclosed circuit all to them selves. the mechanical relay i have on my current bike pulses open. the mechanical ones are load based 'sort of' the load generates heat, which is what really activates the relay.
ive ran a bolb at the front and a LED in back, generally there will still be enough load difference for them to flash fast (on the stock relay) but both front and rear bulbs on either side have to flash together.
Last edited by Zedicus; 07-13-2012 at 03:04 PM.
07-13-2012, 03:31 PM
#28
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The front wires are wrapped seperately.
As for how it is hooked up, I should have been more clear. The connectors I used are the same that were on the stock blinkers, the cylindrical male to female plugs. There are no ground wires. The light has a plug that the stock tail light wires plug into to run the running, brake, and plate lights. The turn signals each have one wire that plugs into the respective hot wire in the harness.
Would the voltage difference create this problem? I don't see how more voltage on the right could cause the lights to be dim, yet less voltage on the left and it works fine.
I'm putting on new tires, sprockets, and a chain tonight so I will have some time to tear into it a little more and test it without the relay.
As for how it is hooked up, I should have been more clear. The connectors I used are the same that were on the stock blinkers, the cylindrical male to female plugs. There are no ground wires. The light has a plug that the stock tail light wires plug into to run the running, brake, and plate lights. The turn signals each have one wire that plugs into the respective hot wire in the harness.
Would the voltage difference create this problem? I don't see how more voltage on the right could cause the lights to be dim, yet less voltage on the left and it works fine.
I'm putting on new tires, sprockets, and a chain tonight so I will have some time to tear into it a little more and test it without the relay.
07-13-2012, 04:57 PM
#29
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its a common ground. everything grounds to the single connection in the socket plug.
the current goes in and has to go some where. you end up with loopbacks. these cause other bulbs to come on or apear dim or just random things to happen. anyone whos ever rewired an old trailer has seen issues like this.
also instead of using the ground in your harness, seperate it and ground to the battery for trouble shooting.
the current goes in and has to go some where. you end up with loopbacks. these cause other bulbs to come on or apear dim or just random things to happen. anyone whos ever rewired an old trailer has seen issues like this.
also instead of using the ground in your harness, seperate it and ground to the battery for trouble shooting.
07-13-2012, 05:29 PM
#30
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The front signal would not flash at the same rate as the rear signal until I got an electronic flasher.
I don't make this stuff up to try and stump you.
